Gene Hackman dead at 95: Iconic actor and wife, 63, are found dead with their dog at Santa Fe home. #2

[doublestop]

New theory of mine:

1. Gene and Betsy got up in the morning as usual.
2. Their routine was to let the dogs out first (like most dog owners.)
3. Two dogs were not crated or had already been let out of their crates.
4. Betsy went to the bathroom to let the crated dog out.
5. She had a sudden health episode before she could get the dog out.
6. In falling down, perhaps grabbing the counter, she knocked the heater and the pills onto the floor.
7. Gene didn't realize she had collapsed.
8. The dogs were losing their minds because she was being slow, so Gene decided to let them out himself.
9. Because he needed so much physical assistance, letting the dogs out himself might not have been his normal routine without his wife's help.
10. Something caused him to fall (he could even have been knocked down by a hyper dog.)
11. Because of his frailty, it was a fatal fall, either quick or slow.

Yes, this is exactly what I think.

 

[formerreddingrunner]

The doggie door does make me wonder. Does anyone know if they were open or closed?
With dogs the size of German Shepherds, The doggie doors would have had to be rather large ones. I could see a small person being able to squeeze in.

WOW. Really good point.

I don't know if we've even discussed this yet on this thread - IIRC though, the police mentioned "doggie door" in their first press conference (which was about 5 mins).

FWIW, I think I could fit through a doggie door that is large enough for a German Shepherd.

In the first press conference, the police mention "Well, they [the dogs] had access to in-and-out of the house. Obviously, the door was open. I don't know, again, the reason for that. I think there was a dog door where they had access to come in-and-out of the house, so they had access to in-and-out of the house. The other dog didn't. He was in a kennel, or a crate, you know - however you want to explain that...But it's concerning that everyone in the house, including the dog, is deceased."

It was at 5:17 in this video

 

[keek]

We have no way of knowing that. Two years ago, driving through the fast food line, he looked old but relatively healthy. He was far more frail and emaciated a year ago in the photos we've seen, and a year later, at 95, with several people stating his health was failing recently, I'm guessing he was fragile as a feather. Older people often don't realize how weak they are, especially when they have had tons of support from a caregiver. Example: My husband's grandparents had been supporting each other symbiotically and when he had a heart attack and spent some time in the hospital, it all went wrong. Next thing you know, they were driving around town and couldn't remember where to go despite living there for decades. He had been covering for her dementia and when he also began to lose his memory, their system failed.

Yes, sadly common in long married couples such as these, when pretty elderly and still drive, habit and just long together, going along.

 

[Sunshynn]

No doubt he was not as sprightly as when younger but I think Gene’s mobility was better than being given credit for here, he used a cane to get around but if he had his sunglasses with him he had clearly been, or was about to, spend time outdoors, he also lived in a sprawling mansion, if his mobility was that bad they would have downsized

I dont doubt his mobility wasn’t great but it would be more than enough to let the dogs out, go looking for her

He was 95 though.

Any kind of fall could be detrimental and then if Betsy was not able to help him up - hyperthermia or any number of things could have occurred. MOO

My grandfather was very active, walked his dog everywhere but did suffer from a fall while walking his dog and couldn't get up. Luckily, bystanders were there to help him.

 

[Cherwell]

As for the too much overthinking......it's what we do here at WS.

I think many people always want there to be someone to blame.

There would not have to be any visible external injuries, just internal
Cilla Black died after a fall, no visible injuries on the outside but a blood clot on the brain from the inside

I mentioned Cilla elsewhere recently, as there had been discussion at the time as to whether her death was natural causes or accidental. Did the fall cause the stroke, or did she fall because she had suffered a stroke? I can't remember how that ended.

This is close to what I believe happened, as well.
That is why I think it's (somewhat) important to know if the deceased dog was locked in or was able to get in the crate freely when discovered.

I haven't seen any trustworthy source saying that the crate was definitely closed. Why would it be closed, if the crate was already in a space with a closeable door, be it closet or bathroom? You would just need to shut the door if you wanted to stop the dog from roaming the house.
I can only think of one reason - that the dog had been injured or ill, and was on enforced rest to speed recovery. Poor love.

 

[priyaya]

sbm

I haven't seen any trustworthy source saying that the crate was definitely closed. Why would it be closed, if the crate was already in a space with a closeable door, be it closet or bathroom? You would just need to shut the door if you wanted to stop the dog from roaming the house.
I can only think of one reason - that the dog had been injured or ill, and was on enforced rest to speed recovery. Poor love.

the point of crate training is potty training, as it is not easy or pleasant to use the restroom in a confined space you have to lay down in. Also if a young dog with separation or anxiety issues could entirely trash whatever was in the closet with it. This is why its difficult for me to believe that the dog wasn't crated. The only way that dog would be dead and the other 2 not is in the crate or it ate the pills

 

[friendlysleuther]

Well, it’s my opinion that they had ate something they shouldn’t have. Whether it was intentionally, or un-intentionally. Someone could have brought them food, desert, anything really, or simply - they had ate&/ made food that had botulism or something similar.

This scenario doesn’t require an intruder.

 

[formerreddingrunner]

If there really was a "dog door" for a dog as large as a German Shepherd, it makes "no sign of forced entry" a moot point, IMO.

surely, there must be a list of crimes from people who got in through the dog door. Another websleuther, @al66pine mentioned Jodi Arias: to prohibit the Jodi Ariases of the world from sneaking into your house is reason enough to weld the dog door permanently closed. yikes.

 

[Cherwell]

the point of crate training is potty training, as it is not easy or pleasant to use the restroom in a confined space you have to lay down in. Also if a young dog with separation or anxiety issues could entirely trash whatever was in the closet with it. This is why its difficult for me to believe that the dog wasn't crated. The only way that dog would be dead and the other 2 not is in the crate or it ate the pills

If there were obviously spilled pills but none on the floor, it's a real possibility that the dog, if free to leave the crate, scavenged them.

Oh yes, toilet training is a possibility if it was a puppy.

 

[tree1]

Still think way too much over thinking in this thread re intruders

I think Gene had a medical episode in that atmud room, his wife rushed to get his tablets, thdisturbed the space heater, space heater knocked her out cold and killed her, I auhave seen space heaters and especially metal ones landing on the head of a woman in her 60’s would be enough to cause a fatal brain bleed

But surely easily seen at autopsy

 

[tree1]

A brain bleed though would show at the autopsy

 

[Shamrock1]

According to the first linked story, the sheriff (Adan Mendoza) said "it appears" the dogs had access to a doggie door, but no stories I've seen have stated for a fact that there is a doggie door. I'd be surprised if there was a doggie door large enough for a German shepherd in a region where coyotes and bobcats (both smaller than GSDs) roam freely and people are told to keep pets indoors at night.

Gene Hackman, wife and dog found dead in home under 'suspicious' circumstances; 2 other dogs found alive

The couple was found during a welfare check after their neighbor called in concerned about their well-being.

abcnews.go.com

Cautiously living with coyotes around us

“Coyotes routinely travel throughout the city via acequias, arroyos and other drainages,” said Joe Newton. “They are also the victims of traffic accidents. Coyotes are pragmatic omnivores who will eat

www.santafenewmexican.com

There are “smart” doggie doors that pair with a transponder on the dog’s collar and only open for that specific dog.

 

[Megnut]

But surely easily seen at autopsy

A brain bleed though would show at the autopsy

True.

But.... the nature of autopsies is to determine cause and manner of death. And toxicology often completes that picture.

So let's say she did get a brain bleed, from the space heater and the fall, the ME still would look for an explanation for the fall, though it doesn't probably apply here but a high blood alcohol level, or even a drug which, if not present on scene, could imply a third party.

The query: what caused this 60+ yr old woman to die. I think it'll be determined, whether a spontaneous event or an avalanche of events. IMO it's very possible that whatever happened, she pulled the space heater down with her, the same dynamic event that dumped the pills.

FWIW I don't think the fall killed her. I think she fell because she was dying.

JMO

 

[Cherwell]

A brain bleed though would show at the autopsy

We don't know what has been found in the autopsies. Nothing has been made public yet, and probably won't be for quite some time. There are toxicology results to come too.

 

[Joe Friday]

Maybe Betsy electrocuted herself by touching the space heater and the faucet at the same time. Unlikely but possible.

JMO

 

[NCWatcher]

Maybe Betsy electrocuted herself by touching the space heater and the faucet at the same time. Unlikely but probable.

JMO

Maybe possible but I doubt probable. I don't know much about electrocution but wouldn't that leave a visible burn on her hand? I guess even if one was there it might have been hard for LE to see given the condition of her body? We've certainly been told neither body showed external signs of trauma.
MOO

 

[Joe Friday]

Maybe possible but I doubt probable. I don't know much about electrocution but wouldn't that leave a visible burn on her hand? I guess even if one was there it might have been hard for LE to see given the condition of her body? We've certainly been told neither body showed external signs of trauma.
MOO

Possible is a much better word. I will go edit it.

Given the fact of the mummification of the hands it may not be possible to see a burn from an electrical shock.

JMO

 

[PrairieWind]

Maybe possible but I doubt probable. I don't know much about electrocution but wouldn't that leave a visible burn on her hand? I guess even if one was there it might have been hard for LE to see given the condition of her body? We've certainly been told neither body showed external signs of trauma.
MOO

Just getting back to this idea since the previous thread was closed. If she had triggered something electrically with the heater, the ground fault interrupter in the bathroom outlet would have tripped. It if had malfunctioned, it would be apparent to investigators.

 

[NCWatcher]

Just getting back to this idea since the previous thread was closed. If she had triggered something electrically with the heater, the ground fault interrupter in the bathroom outlet would have tripped. It if had malfunctioned, it would be apparent to investigators.

Good point. I've lived in lots of old houses without those safer outlets now required by building codes so I didn't think of that.
MOO

 

[BrianJohnson]

Well, it’s my opinion that they had ate something they shouldn’t have. Whether it was intentionally, or un-intentionally. Someone could have brought them food, desert, anything really, or simply - they had ate&/ made food that had botulism or something similar.

This scenario doesn’t require an intruder.

If they had ate something dodgy/been poisoned surely there would be vomit or diarrhoea or something on the floor next to their bodies