Gene Hackman dead at 95: Iconic actor and wife, 63, are found dead with their dog at Santa Fe home. #2

[friendlysleuther]

Autopsy
What Can A Pathologist / Medical Examiner Determine?​

• Heart and Blood Vessels: The pathologist checks the heart and major blood vessels for any signs of disease, damage, or blockages that could indicate a heart-related cause of death. (Heart attack, congestive heart failure, coronary artery blockages,blood clots, etc)
• Lungs and Airways: They look at the nose, throat, windpipe, and lungs to find signs of breathing issues, blockages, or infections. (Pneumonia, bronchitis, tuberculosis, etc)
• Digestive System: The mouth, stomach, intestines, liver, and related organs are examined for injuries, diseases, or signs of poisoning. (Poison, Overdose, etc)
• Hormone-Producing Glands: Key glands like the thyroid and adrenal glands are checked for signs of disease or imbalance.
• Immune System: The spleen and lymph nodes are examined to detect infections or immune disorders. (Sepsis, HIV, etc)
• Urinary and Reproductive Organs: The kidneys, bladder, and reproductive organs are inspected for potential health issues.(cysts, cancer, pregnancy)
• Bones and Muscles: The pathologist looks for broken bones, muscle injuries, or other physical trauma.
• Brain and Nervous System: The scalp, skull, brain, and spinal cord are assessed for signs of injury, bleeding, or neurological problems. (Concussions, hemorrhages, traumatic brain injury, Subdural or epidural hematomas, strokes, multiple sclerosis, aneurysm, Parkinson’s disease, meningitis, blunt force trauma, etc)

It’s my opinion that the fact that they are waiting on the toxicology reports to make a decision, rather than the autopsy revealing any information.. Leads me to believe that their cause & manner of death was not natural.

• “An autopsy was performed. Initial findings noted no external trauma to either individual. The manner and cause of death have not been determined.” (pg. 10 of attached source file)
• “I’m assuming the pathologist will wait for the toxicology to come back, so that'll help her make her decision about what the cause and manner are.” (pg. 13 of attached source file)
• “No, I don’t think the space heater has any significance, especially now that we've ruled out carbon monoxide. Unless there’s something else that comes back in the toxicology report, we’ll look at everything.” (pg. 12 of attached source file)

---

Sources

1. Knight, Bernard. Knight’s Forensic Pathology. CRC Press, Taylor & Francis Group, 2016
2. Forensic Autopsy Performance Standards
3. Noguchi, Thomas T., MD. Coroner. Chapter 3, PostMortem Examination. Office of Justice Programs, digitized PDF.

 

[NuttMegg]

the thing about the heater is why did they mention it at all?

I assumed it was askew. As though it didn't belong there. Or tipped over.

 

[Sunshynn]

It’s my opinion that the fact that they are waiting on the toxicology reports to make a decision, rather than the autopsy revealing any information.. Leads me to believe that their cause & manner of death was not natural.

• “An autopsy was performed. Initial findings noted no external trauma to either individual. The manner and cause of death have not been determined.” (pg. 10 of attached source file)
• “I’m assuming the pathologist will wait for the toxicology to come back, so that'll help her make her decision about what the cause and manner are.” (pg. 13 of attached source file)

Maybe.

I'm just assuming that since it was two unattended deaths involving two people in the same household that they're not ruling anything out.

I've seen other cases where the cause of death seemed quite obvious but because it happened in an odd way that they did toxicology, as well.

All, MOO, of course.

 

[doublestop]

His wife was reportedly in top notch health;

Was she reportedly in top notch health, or reportedly kept herself in good shape? You can be fit and active and still have an underlying health problem.

 

[friendlysleuther]

What did they say about the dog in crate. Any specifics? I just can't see where this dog stayed in a crate for days and days until it died if it was a GSD. There would have been a serious mess if it did. Or unless it was seriously disabled or very sick or it was deceased prior to whatever happened to the humans. I have had more than one dog get itself out, or flat out destroy a crate when there was a reason they needed to. Medium and large dogs are strong enough to force their way out, and some figure out how to open it. Crates are not escape proof. One thing I did think though, was maybe some of the medications found were for the dog. One they said was thyroid medication. Thyroid disorders are fairly common in dogs. May explain her being in bathroom where the crated dog was. I thought they said that dog was in bathroom closet.

Sheriff Adan Mendoza | 00:05:35
“They had access in and out of the house. Obviously, the door was open. I don't know the reason for that. I believe there was a dog door, so they had access to come in and out of the house.The other dog did not have that access. He was in a kennel or a crate—however you want to describe it.”

 

[NuttMegg]

Maybe.

I'm just assuming that since it was two unattended deaths involving two people in the same household that they're not ruling anything out.

I've seen other cases where the cause of death seemed quite obvious but because it happened in an odd way that they did pathology, as well.

All, MOO, of course.

Ditto that. They have to look at everything. In a previous, parallel universe he could be the investigator.

 

[ttjo]

Ditto that. They have to look at everything. In a previous, parallel universe he could be the investigator.

and in the beginning, it could have indicated a heating problem until they rule that out.

 

[friendlysleuther]

Maybe.

I'm just assuming that since it was two unattended deaths involving two people in the same household that they're not ruling anything out.

I've seen other cases where the cause of death seemed quite obvious but because it happened in an odd way that they did pathology, as well.

All, MOO, of course.

Do you mean toxicology? Normally, the autopsy can determine cause of death (based on evvvverything they physically examine in the body) ; whereas, toxicology may show manner of death.

For example, if a person is found deceased at the bottom of a staircase, the autopsy might show blunt force trauma as the cause of death, consistent with a fall.
This is where toxicology comes into play:
If the toxicology report shows high blood alcohol levels, it could indicate the manner of death was an accidental fall. If sedatives or a paralytic agent are found, it might suggest the person was incapacitated before the fall, potentially pointing to homicide.
If a lethal dose of a drug is detected, it could indicate suicide.

See: The Frequency of Truly Unknown/Undetermined Deaths: A Review of 452 Cases Over a 5-Year Period
“Total number of autopsies was 1323 and in (only) 10.3% of the cases, toxicological analyses were requested to obtain further information”

 

[Sunshynn]

Do you mean toxicology

Oops.
Yes.
I’ll amend my quote.

 

[Cherwell]

Autopsy
What Can A Pathologist / Medical Examiner Determine?​

• Heart and Blood Vessels: The pathologist checks the heart and major blood vessels for any signs of disease, damage, or blockages that could indicate a heart-related cause of death. (Heart attack, congestive heart failure, coronary artery blockages,blood clots, etc)
• Lungs and Airways: They look at the nose, throat, windpipe, and lungs to find signs of breathing issues, blockages, or infections. (Pneumonia, bronchitis, tuberculosis, etc)
• Digestive System: The mouth, stomach, intestines, liver, and related organs are examined for injuries, diseases, or signs of poisoning. (Poison, Overdose, etc)
• Hormone-Producing Glands: Key glands like the thyroid and adrenal glands are checked for signs of disease or imbalance.
• Immune System: The spleen and lymph nodes are examined to detect infections or immune disorders. (Sepsis, HIV, etc)
• Urinary and Reproductive Organs: The kidneys, bladder, and reproductive organs are inspected for potential health issues.(cysts, cancer, pregnancy)
• Bones and Muscles: The pathologist looks for broken bones, muscle injuries, or other physical trauma.
• Brain and Nervous System: The scalp, skull, brain, and spinal cord are assessed for signs of injury, bleeding, or neurological problems. (Concussions, hemorrhages, traumatic brain injury, Subdural or epidural hematomas, strokes, multiple sclerosis, aneurysm, Parkinson’s disease, meningitis, blunt force trauma, etc)

It’s my opinion that the fact that they are waiting on the toxicology reports to make a decision, rather than the autopsy revealing any information.. Leads me to believe that their cause & manner of death was not natural.

• “An autopsy was performed. Initial findings noted no external trauma to either individual. The manner and cause of death have not been determined.” (pg. 10 of attached source file)
• “I’m assuming the pathologist will wait for the toxicology to come back, so that'll help her make her decision about what the cause and manner are.” (pg. 13 of attached source file)
• “No, I don’t think the space heater has any significance, especially now that we've ruled out carbon monoxide. Unless there’s something else that comes back in the toxicology report, we’ll look at everything.” (pg. 12 of attached source file)

---

Sources

1. Knight, Bernard. Knight’s Forensic Pathology. CRC Press, Taylor & Francis Group, 2016
2. Forensic Autopsy Performance Standards
3. Noguchi, Thomas T., MD. Coroner. Chapter 3, PostMortem Examination. Office of Justice Programs, digitized PDF.

I don't think we can draw any conclusions because the autopsy findings have not been released.

"The manner and cause of death have not been determined" - IMO this was said to stop people asking questions.
It's not just about the immediate causes of death, they need to try and work out what happened and get a fuller picture, taking everything into account.

I will be astonished if these deaths are down to anything other than misfortune.

 

[JTribley]

Was she reportedly in top notch health, or reportedly kept herself in good shape? You can be fit and active and still have an underlying health problem.

I agree with this premise. While I myself have been an active bodybuilder/ fitness person for years and look very healthy, I had breast cancer lurking. One never knows underlying conditions, even not known to the person, who we all look at as “looking in really good shape.”

 

[Izzylizzy]

GH & BA's German Shepherd who died was a female named "Bear".


"One of the couple’s dogs — a female German Shepherd named Bear, according to Lanham — was found dead in a kennel, while two others were found alive on the property."

Gene Hackman’s business partner remembers actor as a prankster

Hackman and his wife, Betsy Arakawa, were found dead at their Santa Fe, New Mexico, home Wednesday. Officials have said their deaths are “suspicious.”

www.nbcnews.com

 

[Zapoleon]

GH & BA's German Shepherd who died was a female named "Bear".


"One of the couple’s dogs — a female German Shepherd named Bear, according to Lanham — was found dead in a kennel, while two others were found alive on the property."

Gene Hackman’s business partner remembers actor as a prankster

Hackman and his wife, Betsy Arakawa, were found dead at their Santa Fe, New Mexico, home Wednesday. Officials have said their deaths are “suspicious.”

www.nbcnews.com

Thank you that is a great little read of the tribute from the friend.

 

[STAGNUM]

As for the too much overthinking......it's what we do here at WS.

The more moving parts in a theory, the quicker it falls apart.

What was the reaction of the police at the scene? Two people dead, different parts of the house, no external trauma, no signs of an intruder. No foul play. a tragic accident. The police gut reaction? There was a possible carbon monoxide leak.

The tests of the air at the scene were clean, however, at some 9 days post mortem. The original blood tests and examination were negative. Maybe new toxicology will come up with something. CO is very insidious, it kills you by blocking oxygen transport in the blood. The toxicology still might miss it because of the chemical changes post mortem.

Could it be some other airborne poison? A gaseous pesticide? Again the toxicology is important, but is at the mercy of the chemical and the decomposition.

I am surprised no one here has come up with some fictional nemesis to one of Gene Hackman's characters as the culprit. Maybe it is payback for the French Connection??

 

[Fabled Automatic]

The disclosures come after it was revealed police are preparing to interview Gene's children in efforts to trace the couple's last known actions. The celebrated actor leaves behind three children with his former wife Faye Maltese — Christopher, 65, Elizabeth, 63, and Leslie, 58.

Authorities have acknowledged they're in discussions with "family members" as they work to unravel the last few days of Gene and Betsy's lives. The two were found dead, each in separate rooms within their New Mexico residence early this week.

Santa Fe County Sheriff Adan Mendoza said uncovering the last individuals to have contact with the couple has been a "challenge". Maintenance staff were thought to be the last to speak with them, but now there's uncertainty around that claim.

I'm curious what has caused LE to be uncertain about who was last to see Betsy and Gene alive.

Source

 

[Sunshynn]

I'm curious what has caused LE to be uncertain about who was last to see Betsy and Gene alive.

Source

Perhaps a text or phone call recovered on the cellphones?
MOO

 

[Ghostwheel]

I'm curious what has caused LE to be uncertain about who was last to see Betsy and Gene alive.

Source

I think about my own day. I work from home, so when I clock out, someone at work was the last contact. Unless it's trash day, then it's my neighbor. Or if I get a package from UPS, then it the UPS person. Or if one of my children decides to text, call, etc, then it's them. Or If one of my friends texts, calls, etc, then it's them. Or if someone bangs on my door selling something, then it's them. Or if I call or text someone about something (bank, store, credit card company), then it's them. There are so very many ways to have "contact" with a person. Speak is specific, that they hear the voice or see the person, because Text or email could be anyone pretending to be anyone unless the communication is in the right style. It's not always easy to figure out who might have been in contact with someone last.

 

[Fabled Automatic]

Perhaps a text or phone call recovered on the cellphones?
MOO

Might be. They certainly will be key pieces of evidence. From that same article:

Authorities are also focusing on two mobile phones discovered at the scene which they believe could be crucial; these devices are being sent for analysis, with potential assistance from forensic specialists.

 

[Zapoleon]

Given it was said they were very isolated now from people who knew them it would make sense that the last person in contact with them might have been via phone. Perhaps even one of those yoga classes he did. Though I dont think we know what day of the week he did them and how often they were.

 

[friendlysleuther]

I'm curious what has caused LE to be uncertain about who was last to see Betsy and Gene alive.

Source

I don’t think this is a good source. In the press conference, he states,

Reporter | 00:10:55
“When is the last known contact with either Betsy or Gene?

Sheriff Adan Mendoza | 00:11:05
“That’s been one of our challenges because of their privacy. One of the challenges is trying to determine that timeline. I think the event of the pacemaker gives us an idea, but again, we’re going to sift through the cell phone records.”