Gene Hackman dead at 95: Iconic actor and wife, 63, are found dead with their dog at Santa Fe home. #2

[arielilane]

@CStewartNews


I spoke with @JoScottForensic about what could happen next in the investigation into Gene Hackman's death.

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[HoneyBunOne]

I'm in Australia, where kelpies are wide spread. They are a herding breed and are often used for keeping flocks of sheep in order, or droving them to other areas of your property. They are also common household pets. I can imagine a dog like this might instinctively attempt to patrol a property surrounded by coyotes, bobcats etc of a night time, hence the potential need for being crated overnight.

Australian Kelpie - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[iamshadow21]

Thank you for this. As a dog lover, I've heard of the breed but know little about it. Not commonly found in my region of the US, so very informative.

It's a very Aussie breed. Like cattle dogs. Both breeds were developed here in the nineteenth century as working dogs for sheep and cattle. Kelpies are theorised to have some dingo, cattle dogs we know do. But to be honest, there is a lot of interbreeding between the two. These aren't dogs reserved for looks, they're working dogs, and people breed for desired traits of temperament and trainability, if it's done deliberately at all and isn't just the result of undesexed dogs doing what nature intended.

MOO

 

[nao]

Moo...I found my neighbor deceased from a fall. The light were on, the door was open..but he would always close it before bed. So I knew something had happened. I cared about him very very much. I had held his hand while he cried about his childhood. He was 87, life was cruel way back then. He was alone no family.
What he did make me promise, is that I would never call an ambulance for him...he said he would never forgive me if I did.
We do not know what as a loving couple agreements they had....moo

 

[RedHaus]

Was that dog sick, drugged, or was it already deceased before the couple died.

RS&BBM
Today (before I saw your post!) I had a thought I don't think anyone has suggested yet (correct me if I'm wrong!).

Firstly, IMO, the odds are in favor of one of the two, BA and GH, suddenly dying first with the consequential death of the other (accidental fall in a state of duress?), and with the dog dying last from dehydration.

However, what if the dog died first?

Perhaps the dog was crated because it was ill or being provided palliative care at the end of its life. And what if the dog's death precipitated the sudden deaths of the two adults? My experience of a beloved pet dying is extreme grief and emotional distress. That may have been the stress trigger of the first adult's sudden fatal medical event.

Then perhaps the other adult's death was the consequence of the first, so: 1) dog, 2) adult #1, 3) adult #2.

Like you, I hope a necropsy is being done on the poor dog. Maybe this is wishful thinking that she did not suffer.

pure speculation on my part.

 

[al66pine]

Mistaking a Kelpie for a German Shepherd?

Sheriff's office makes error about Gene Hackman's dog in initial death report

Authorities are still unraveling the deaths of Gene Hackman and his wife. Equally puzzling were reports their German shepherd had died. He hadn't.

www.usatoday.com

This story has a picture of Betsy and Zinna, reportedly.
View attachment 568073
I can see how Zinna would be misidentified as a German Shephard.

@Sunshynn
Yes, even in this pic, w dog facing camera, it's easy think it's a GerShep.

I think this doggo on chair is keeping a verrry CLOSE EYE on the paw (in bottom right of frame) to make sure that dog does not jump up & PHOTOBOMB the pic.

 

[justtrish]

Mistaking a Kelpie for a German Shepherd?


@Sunshynn
Yes, even in this pic, w dog facing camera, it's easy think it's a GerShep.

I think this doggo on chair is keeping a verrry CLOSE EYE on the paw (in bottom right of frame) to make sure that dog does not jump up & PHOTOBOMB the pic.

I do wonder if the pup had been gone for a week or more, it might have been difficult to really tell breed and with there being 2 other German Shepard's roaming around, maybe that was some of the confusion.

 

[nao]

Moo ..German shepherd, Belgium shepherds (malinois) dutch shepherds ( I have a dutch) lots of different kinds of shepherds....moo

 

[friendlysleuther]

The only scenario that makes sense to me so far is that Betsy had a catastrophic health event. Probably in the morning while taking her medicine and before letting the dog out. Gene awoke at some point later and either due to some existing mental decline, health limitation, or shock of finding Betsy was not able to reach out for help.
The dog in the crate removes the possibility of anything intentional by Betsy or Gene. Neither would have left the dog like that IMO. If the door was open maybe Gene had some intent to go for help but wasn’t able to.

From the photos & diagram of home, it doesn’t look like the front door was close to him

 

[Deleted member 235284]

Medic alert necklaces are a godsend. I worked in a long term care home and naturally, residents would fall. A couple of the ones who didn't wear their's had laid there for hours sometimes (middle of the night). The ones who did, we could respond in minutes.

You can even have them alert a device, like your phone and they have GPS. So, you could have your device notified if a loved one at a different residence fell.

Life savers they are amazing. Its kind of a shame they are not more widely used. Like anyone with an older family member like that as risk of falling etc should make sure they have one.

 

[Quill]

It's a very Aussie breed. Like cattle dogs. Both breeds were developed here in the nineteenth century as working dogs for sheep and cattle. Kelpies are theorised to have some dingo, cattle dogs we know do. But to be honest, there is a lot of interbreeding between the two. These aren't dogs reserved for looks, they're working dogs, and people breed for desired traits of temperament and trainability, if it's done deliberately at all and isn't just the result of undesexed dogs doing what nature intended.

MOO

A neighboring farmer to us when I was a kid had a similar dog, what we call Australian cattle dogs here in the southeastern US. He was an amazing working dog (very salt & pepper coat with a tad bit of bronze) who worked cattle. He was the first I ever saw. You're right in that they are not beauty type dogs. They are hardcore working dogs. This type is a little bit more common here. They are fine cattle dogs. I hadn't thought of them being related to Kelpies but it makes total sense to me now. Sadly, many of these breeds end up in rescue here because they end up in homes that just do not understand the needs of this breed to work and be stimulated. I read in a previous post that Zinna had ended up in a shelter at some point before being adopted by the Hackmans. This whole thing is just so SAD on all accounts.

 

[sassyblue]

Minor gas utility findings in Hackman home not factors in deaths, sheriff's office says

The utility confirmed no "significant findings" in Hackman's home related to his and his wife's deaths but noted a few code violations.

www.santafenewmexican.com

 

[friendlysleuther]

Minor gas utility findings in Hackman home not factors in deaths, sheriff's office says

The utility confirmed no "significant findings" in Hackman's home related to his and his wife's deaths but noted a few code violations.

www.santafenewmexican.com

Hmmmm. I wonder if this is common or not

 

[Ghostwheel]

Good is subjective, yes. But it's stated his health was declining:


It doesn't seem to gel with his daughter's original statement:


Good for a 95 year old? Maybe. Good in general? Not sure yet. Granted, riding a bike comes with greater risk of injury, I have a hard time believing that someone who had to give up riding a bike a year ago still did pilates and yoga several times a week. His daughter also admitted to not speaking with him months before his death (that's their business), so I'm not sure she could give as good a picture as a family friend who may have been closer.

I agree, it's a tough call. A family member could be used to the gradual decline so his "health" may have been fine, but that doesn't mean he wasn't moving more slowly or stopping things more likely to cause injury. It could also be that when your parent says they are fine, as a child you believe what they say until you see otherwise. (like he might not have been going to Yoga but said he was). As another anecdote, when my Grandmother (my mom's mother) had hip surgery, when she came out something was wrong. She imagined she was somewhere else, thought people had stolen things from her, insisted a sleeveless sweater was mine (as if!), was convinced certain things existed that had never existed. Since I knew her so well, it was apparent something was wrong. Going in her mind was like a steel trap, but her mind was never exactly right again after the surgery. My mother didn't have a clue, she didn't see it until I pointed it out. So definitely a person closer could have a better view.

The words "was really slipping there" is where I have trouble. That means what exactly? Mind slipping? Even more not able to walk without help (being as he appeared to need a cane and to hold on to his wife to walk-that was not holding hands in that picture of the last time someone saw them out). It's just not too specific, so it sounds like someone wanting their 5 seconds of fame. IMOO.

 

[HoneyBunOne]

And isn't it funny? My motto is once I retire, I'm going off grid as best I can. None of it made my life "easier" at all. To each their own.

It's is interesting that we've heard about phones in this case, but not much about computers or other electronics.

Hopefully you've learnt from this disaster to not be so off grid as to endanger your own health and wellbeing should something amiss occur.

 

[STAGNUM]

the affadavit only mentions
unspecified thyroid medication, the painkiller Tylenol and the blood pressure medication Diltiazem,
its strange they didn't mention the name of the thyroid medication. however I'm certain there were other medications in that house

That is really not a lot of medicine for a 65 and 95 year old. They must have pretty good doctors or have been in pretty good shape generally. I would expect that if they had other meds, there would be pill trays nearby and a mess of bottles in a cabinet to fill those trays.

 

[HoneyBunOne]

That is really not a lot of medicine for a 65 and 95 year old. They must have pretty good doctors or have been in pretty good shape generally. I would expect that if they had other meds, there would be pill trays nearby and a mess of bottles in a cabinet to fill those trays.

I fully expect they had a full medicine cabinet, stocked for all of life's misadventures, especially if they liked to live quietly at their property. You don't want to be ordering in, or running to town, every time something happens. I imagine most homes would have lots of OTC medications, along with some prescription meds too. I for one have pain meds, anti histamines, sleeping aids, anti-inflammatories, vitamins, lotions and potions for pains and rashes, a first aid kit, bandages, etc, etc, etc. I also have a few prescription meds for my conditions. Some in the fridge, some in the kitchen, and some in the pantry. (Why not the medicine cabinet? I don't really know. Just ease of access as I use them all daily)

The medications in question in this case are just the ones found nearby, on the bench I believe. Thyroid and BP meds are usually taken daily, so I imagine they may have been kept handy and out on the bench. As for the Tylenol, perhaps that was the med being dispensed when the medical episode happened - bad headache, quickly turns to a deadly aneurysm for example.

 

[Cardgame]

The only scenario that makes sense to me so far is that Betsy had a catastrophic health event. Probably in the morning while taking her medicine and before letting the dog out. Gene awoke at some point later and either due to some existing mental decline, health limitation, or shock of finding Betsy was not able to reach out for help.
The dog in the crate removes the possibility of anything intentional by Betsy or Gene. Neither would have left the dog like that IMO. If the door was open maybe Gene had some intent to go for help but wasn’t able to.

This might be true, but worth clarifying that all of this conjecture about them having medical events etc is only based on the information we have so far.

The police haven't taken it at face value, they have removed phones for analysis, done fingerprints, examined the scene, removed various items and they are running toxicology reports. They said there was no obvious sign of foul play, but if the deaths were transparently innocent then why would they bother investigating?

I feel personally very glad that they are looking into this. To rule out that something nefarious has happened here. Especially in light of Gene's 80million dollar fortune which we just learned about above!

Hopefully the toxicology report will be illuminating and will indicate to police from what medical event Gene and Betsy died.

 

[iamshadow21]

A neighboring farmer to us when I was a kid had a similar dog, what we call Australian cattle dogs here in the southeastern US. He was an amazing working dog (very salt & pepper coat with a tad bit of bronze) who worked cattle. He was the first I ever saw. You're right in that they are not beauty type dogs. They are hardcore working dogs. This type is a little bit more common here. They are fine cattle dogs. I hadn't thought of them being related to Kelpies but it makes total sense to me now. Sadly, many of these breeds end up in rescue here because they end up in homes that just do not understand the needs of this breed to work and be stimulated. I read in a previous post that Zinna had ended up in a shelter at some point before being adopted by the Hackmans. This whole thing is just so SAD on all accounts.

They're related to kelpies in that they're both working dog breeds, and that there are a bunch of crossbreeds out there. Sounds like the dog you knew was probably a cattle dog. That salt and pepper coat is classic cattle.

MOO

 

[Cardgame]

I fully expect they had a full medicine cabinet, stocked for all of life's misadventures, especially if they liked to live quietly at their property. You don't want to be ordering in, or running to town, every time something happens. I imagine most homes would have lots of OTC medications, along with some prescription meds too. I for one have pain meds, anti histamines, sleeping aids, anti-inflammatories, vitamins, lotions and potions for pains and rashes, a first aid kit, bandages, etc, etc, etc. I also have a few prescription meds for my conditions. Some in the fridge, some in the kitchen, and some in the pantry. (Why not the medicine cabinet? I don't really know. Just ease of access as I use them all daily)

The medications in question in this case are just the ones found nearby, on the bench I believe. Thyroid and BP meds are usually taken daily, so I imagine they may have been kept handy and out on the bench. As for the Tylenol, perhaps that was the med being dispensed when the medical episode happened - bad headache, quickly turns to a deadly aneurysm for example.

Well this is such an interesting point. Me too!

Did Police therefore only remove the medications from the bathroom? I think I remember something about the Sheriff saying they could possibly return to the scene and check out more medicines if the tox report indicated to.

Or is there a possibility that G and B were anti Big Pharma?

I do know some people who are very suspicious of *everything* since Covid, and this would be in line with their retreat from the world since the pandemic.