General Discussion and Theories #4

[Tamarind]

What I find interesting about the snippet from the phone bill is the fact that LB appears to be calling different people one after the other almost in a frenzied fashion. There could be many reasons for it but it does grab your attention. No one seems to answer her calls ( the 1min duration ). A few numbers are repeat calls. I read somewhere that one call was to a guy initials BF and he had said that he hadn't heard from her in quite some time. This suggests she may have been depressed and calling people either to chat, hook up or ask for something. IMO. The call to DM that lasted 23 mins may have been a genuine friendly chat. She doesn't call him again until after she has called numerous other people. He doesn't answer most of the calls, just like the rest of the people she called. It was a holiday weekend and most younger people are busy doing something, so not answering a phone would be normal if out on the lake or fishing or some other leisure activity. IMO.

If she was afraid of DM or thought he meant to harm her I highly doubt she would be trying to reach him with eight successive calls. The successive calls could indicate that he had been the only one in the last few days to actually take the time to talk to her and she was again calling out for help. It could also mean that she was trying to warn him about something, maybe she knew something or had heard something.

I don't see this bill as something that indicates DM was planning on abducting her or killing her. JMO

DM was not the one calling her, she was calling him. Had he needed to know where she was to abduct her you would think he would answer his phone and find out. But he didnt. MOO

 

[Alethea Dice]

We also know this:


http://www.annrbrocklehurst.com/tag/laura-babcock

I remember also reading on the Help us find Laura page that her passport was left at home, her health card had not been used and her bank records had been checked. But again, that article says she hadn't used her phone since June, when in reality it was used in July. When people talk, they're not always accurate. They may say 'end of June' or 'beginning of July' depending on who is talking. I will reserve judgement on whether we "know" those things. Things said by friends in conversation are usually considered rumour until proven to be true. I'm not sure how anyone would have known at the time whether her health card had been used due to privacy laws.

JMO

 

[Alethea Dice]

What I find interesting about the snippet from the phone bill is the fact that LB appears to be calling different people one after the other almost in a frenzied fashion. There could be many reasons for it but it does grab your attention. No one seems to answer her calls ( the 1min duration ). A few numbers are repeat calls. I read somewhere that one call was to a guy initials BF and he had said that he hadn't heard from her in quite some time. This suggests she may have been depressed and calling people either to chat, hook up or ask for something. IMO. The call to DM that lasted 23 mins may have been a genuine friendly chat. She doesn't call him again until after she has called numerous other people. He doesn't answer most of the calls, just like the rest of the people she called. It was a holiday weekend and most younger people are busy doing something, so not answering a phone would be normal if out on the lake or fishing or some other leisure activity. IMO.

If she was afraid of DM or thought he meant to harm her I highly doubt she would be trying to reach him with eight successive calls. The successive calls could indicate that he had been the only one in the last few days to actually take the time to talk to her and she was again calling out for help. It could also mean that she was trying to warn him about something, maybe she knew something or had heard something.

I don't see this bill as something that indicates DM was planning on abducting her or killing her. JMO

DM was not the one calling her, she was calling him. Had he needed to know where she was to abduct her you would think he would answer his phone and find out. But he didnt. MOO

There is another number that she had called 5 times on the 1st and 2nd, before the flurry of calls to DM. If she was looking for a place to stay, maybe DM was her second choice.

JMO

 

[Tamarind]

There is another number that she had called 5 times on the 1st and 2nd, before the flurry of calls to DM. If she was looking for a place to stay, maybe DM was her second choice.

JMO

Yes, the last call to that other number was not answered, she may have left a message. Then she gets a call right back (possibly from that message she may have left) that lasts 7 mins. and immediately after that call she ( or someone) calls DM

Or the conversation she had previously with someone else prompted her to call DM.


Also, how do we know it was LB calling DM on the 3rd July?
If someone had got hold of her phone they could have called him. Like sillybilly says, it is strange that the voicemail was the last access to that phone after several days. But I suppose someone would have needed to know her password to do that !!

The frenzied calling seemed to occur on the 1st and 2nd July.

Presumably SL's phone number is one of the numbers on the bill, unless he communicated with her by ipad.

 

[Sillybilly]

SL said the last day he spoke to her was July 2nd.

<rsbm>

Do you have a link for that Alethea? The TPS bulletin had said she was last seen June 26. That was when SL took her to dinner at the Eaton Centre and got her a room at the Days Inn, Queen & Roncesvalles where the TPS bulletin said she was last seen.

from:
http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2...e_she_was_reported_missing_police_allege.html

Shawn Lerner, Babcock&#8217;s former boyfriend, reported the last official sighting of the woman on June 26, 2012.

IIRC, July 2 was when she contacted her friend NM looking for a place to stay.

 

[SnooperDuper]

What I find interesting about the snippet from the phone bill is the fact that LB appears to be calling different people one after the other almost in a frenzied fashion. There could be many reasons for it but it does grab your attention. No one seems to answer her calls ( the 1min duration ). A few numbers are repeat calls. I read somewhere that one call was to a guy initials BF and he had said that he hadn't heard from her in quite some time. This suggests she may have been depressed and calling people either to chat, hook up or ask for something. IMO. The call to DM that lasted 23 mins may have been a genuine friendly chat. She doesn't call him again until after she has called numerous other people. He doesn't answer most of the calls, just like the rest of the people she called. It was a holiday weekend and most younger people are busy doing something, so not answering a phone would be normal if out on the lake or fishing or some other leisure activity. IMO.

If she was afraid of DM or thought he meant to harm her I highly doubt she would be trying to reach him with eight successive calls. The successive calls could indicate that he had been the only one in the last few days to actually take the time to talk to her and she was again calling out for help. It could also mean that she was trying to warn him about something, maybe she knew something or had heard something.

I don't see this bill as something that indicates DM was planning on abducting her or killing her. JMO

DM was not the one calling her, she was calling him. Had he needed to know where she was to abduct her you would think he would answer his phone and find out. But he didnt. MOO

And [he] claimed that she was asking him for drugs and for a place to stay and that he didn't oblige either of those requests.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/unknown-remains-found-on-dellen-millard-s-farm-1.1335720

Notice it wasn't money or a place to stay, but drugs or a place to stay.

DM was a go-to guy for drugs.

Thus the frenzied calls.

 

[Tamarind]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/unknown-remains-found-on-dellen-millard-s-farm-1.1335720

Notice it wasn't money or a place to stay, but drugs or a place to stay.

DM was a go-to guy for drugs.

Thus the frenzied calls.

The frenzied calls I am referring to are to different numbers one after the other, not DM number.
DM could have been the guy to go to for a place to stay. He did get used quite a lot for a place to stay... JMO

 

[SnooperDuper]

The frenzied calls I am referring to are to different numbers one after the other, not DM number.
DM could have been the guy to go to for a place to stay. He did get used quite a lot for a place to stay... JMO

Maybe she was just calling everyone she knew who had a line on drugs or a place to stay.

DM admitted that she asked him for drugs, and if he weren't the kind of person that had drugs she would logically have asked for money (and not said anything about the drugs). We know DM had lots of money, yet he did not say LB asked him for money. She asked him for drugs.

 

[Tamarind]

Maybe she was just calling everyone she knew who had a line on drugs or a place to stay.

DM admitted that she asked him for drugs, and if he weren't the kind of person that had drugs she would logically have asked for money (and not said anything about the drugs). We know DM had lots of money, yet he did not say LB asked him for money. She asked him for drugs.

How do we know what she asked for ? She may have asked for drugs to be paid for later, or asked if anyone knew where she could get some. The guy BF who she called and he hadn''t answered said he hadn't heard from her in a long time, so she was really scouting for something. Could have been drugs or could have been a chat or even looking for help.

 

[swedie]

The frenzied calls I am referring to are to different numbers one after the other, not DM number.
DM could have been the guy to go to for a place to stay. He did get used quite a lot for a place to stay... JMO

Of course this is your assumption<modsnip>. All those calls could have been made because DM suggested to LB he wanted to take her "away" somewhere, therefore she was looking for someone to take care of her dog. In her last ditch effort, she left her dog at her parents place along with a shoebox containing money. Those were perhaps her only belongings other then her clothing, which she would have taken with her to go "away" with DM. She was known to have slept in a park at one point, so I doubt she had many belonging. Did she leave with DM, a backpack of clothing, SL's ipad and her cell phone? MOO.

 

[Tamarind]

Of course this is your assumption<modsnip>. All those calls could have been made because DM suggested to LB he wanted to take her "away" somewhere, therefore she was looking for someone to take care of her dog. In her last ditch effort, she left her dog at her parents place along with a shoebox containing money. Those were perhaps her only belongings other then her clothing, which she could have taken with her to go "away" with DM. She was know to have slept in a park at one point so I doubt she had many belonging. Did she leave with DM, a backpack of clothing, SL's ipad and her cell phone? MOO.

Yes it is my opinion, and DM's as far as the used part. Also the bill clearly shows that calls were placed quickly one after the other, which could be called somewhat frenzied. All subject to interpretation, thats why I put JMO at the end of my post. The same principle applies to everyone elses opinions that are often regurgitated and presented as if they are facts. I agree we need to make sure opinions don't get turned into anything other than what they are. Much like the opinion highlighted above, nowhere have I read that DM suggested he would take her ''away'' somewhere.

 

[swedie]

Yes it is my opinion, and DM's as far as the used part. Also the bill clearly shows that calls were placed quickly one after the other, which could be called somewhat frenzied. All subject to interpretation, thats why I put JMO at the end of my post. The same principle applies to everyone elses opinions that are often regurgitated and presented as if they are facts. I agree we need to make sure opinions don't get turned into anything other than what they are. Much like the opinion highlighted above, nowhere have I read that DM suggested he would take her ''away'' somewhere.

Generally I use words such as could have, perhaps, likely, etc. as to not confuse readers just as I did in my post you are confused about and highlighted part of it...Notice could have. HTH. Sorry but I do not see them as frenzied calls and no where in the MSM does it suggest that but that's JMO. The bill IMO appears as if someone was making plans and needed details and confirmation. MOO.

C&P from my post:
All those calls could have been made because DM suggested to LB he wanted to take her "away" somewhere, therefore she was looking for someone to take care of her dog. In her last ditch effort, she left her dog at her parents place along with a shoebox containing money.

 

[Juballee]

Maybe she was just calling everyone she knew who had a line on drugs or a place to stay.

DM admitted that she asked him for drugs, and if he weren't the kind of person that had drugs she would logically have asked for money (and not said anything about the drugs). We know DM had lots of money, yet he did not say LB asked him for money. She asked him for drugs.

She probably didn't ask him for money because she already had a shoebox full of it, at least.

 

[Juballee]

All those calls could have been made because DM suggested to LB he wanted to take her "away" somewhere, therefore she was looking for someone to take care of her dog. In her last ditch effort, she left her dog at her parents place along with a shoebox containing money. Those were perhaps her only belongings other then her clothing, which she would have taken with her to go "away" with DM. She was known to have slept in a park at one point, so I doubt she had many belonging. Did she leave with DM, a backpack of clothing, SL's ipad and her cell phone? MOO.

Rsbm

While it is possible that she dropped off her dog to free her up to travel, I cannot imagine why anyone who was about to travel wouldn't want to have money with them. Travel could also explain the sudden stop in electronic communications, as many people only have cell phone coverage inside a certain area, although it would have to be within Canada (or I believe at the time you could still travel by car to the US without a passport). But still, if one is going to travel, usually a passport and money are essential, in my opinion.

Another thing that could explain why someone would give away the things they value, a beloved pet or a lot of money, would be that instead of planning for a trip, they were planning for a suicide. That would also explain the sudden lack of electronic communications, and the flurry of phone activity prior to the silence; there are just some people that we feel we need to say goodbye to, in my opinion.

Something about this always reminds me of poor Miriam Makhniashvili. Teams of people actively searched for her, with great assistance from the media at the time, and still it wasn't discovered that she had committed suicide for years. In a city with millions of people, she was found years later, a short distance from both the busiest highway and one of the busiest streets, in a public space that had previously been searched. At least she was finally found, some suicide victims are never found.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...-makhniashvilis-disappearance/article4096262/

All my opinion only.

 

[Tamarind]

Generally I use words such as could have, perhaps, likely, etc. as to not confuse readers just as I did in my post you are confused about and highlighted part of it...Notice could have. HTH. Sorry but I do not see them as frenzied calls and no where in the MSM does it suggest that but that's JMO. The bill IMO appears as if someone was making plans and needed details and confirmation. MOO.

C&P from my post:
[I]All those calls could have been made because DM suggested to LB he wanted to take her "away" somewhere, therefore she was looking for someone to take care of her dog. In her last ditch effort, she left her dog at her parents place along with a shoebox containing money.[/I]

View attachment 78489

Just to clarify a point that I feel is important. The C&P that is quoted clearly states that 'all the calls could have been made' (the could have seems to have applied to the calls). It then goes on to say... 'because DM suggested to LB that he wanted to take her ''away'' somewhere. ( as if he had said this). Maybe this is where I found it to be misleading. I am sure you didn't mean it sound misleading but we are talking about how opinions can lead to misinterpretations and rumours. Sorry if I misinterpreted your post, I hope this helps to understand why it could have been misinterpreted.

Also the number blacked out at top of quoted bill was called several times before the calls to DM.

 

[Alethea Dice]

<rsbm>

Do you have a link for that Alethea? The TPS bulletin had said she was last seen June 26. That was when SL took her to dinner at the Eaton Centre and got her a room at the Days Inn, Queen & Roncesvalles where the TPS bulletin said she was last seen.

from:
http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2...e_she_was_reported_missing_police_allege.html



IIRC, July 2 was when she contacted her friend NM looking for a place to stay.

Sure, here are a couple of links. I probably shouldn't have used the word "spoke" as it was apparently by text. When I posted I just remembered that was their last contact. June 26th was the date SL last saw her, but July 2nd was the last contact.

Babcock and Lerner stayed in touch by text until July 2.

http://metronews.ca/news/toronto/1058608/murder-of-laura-babcock-leaves-lingering-questions-for-police/

Timeline in Babcock’s disappearance:
<bullet>July 2, 2012: The last known contact Laura Babcock has with friends or family.

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2014/06/07/dellen_millard_murder_of_laura_babcock_leaves_lingering_questions_for_police.html

 

[Alethea Dice]

Maybe she was just calling everyone she knew who had a line on drugs or a place to stay.

DM admitted that she asked him for drugs, and if he weren't the kind of person that had drugs she would logically have asked for money (and not said anything about the drugs). We know DM had lots of money, yet he did not say LB asked him for money. She asked him for drugs.

Why wouldn't she ask him for drugs? He seems to have been spending lots of time with MS who had previous drug charges and who also seemed to be pretty tight with MWJ who seemed to have connections to the drug and weapons world. In fact, if he wasn't living with him yet, he would be a few months later (according to ABro). Why would she ask him for money if she had a shoebox full of it?

JMO

 

[SnooperDuper]

Rsbm

While it is possible that she dropped off her dog to free her up to travel, I cannot imagine why anyone who was about to travel wouldn't want to have money with them. Travel could also explain the sudden stop in electronic communications, as many people only have cell phone coverage inside a certain area, although it would have to be within Canada (or I believe at the time you could still travel by car to the US without a passport). But still, if one is going to travel, usually a passport and money are essential, in my opinion.

Another thing that could explain why someone would give away the things they value, a beloved pet or a lot of money, would be that instead of planning for a trip, they were planning for a suicide. That would also explain the sudden lack of electronic communications, and the flurry of phone activity prior to the silence; there are just some people that we feel we need to say goodbye to, in my opinion.

IF LB was so full of anger and despair at the people in her life, wouldn't she SHOW them what they had done to her by leaving her body, and a note, to SHOW people what she had been driven to?

LB was fairly emotional and impulsive, judging by her behavior. She fought with people and had tantrums. Are we expected to believe that she could coolly calculate a way to disappear in that emotional state, or want to "just disappear" without having the last word (suicide note)? She was very dramatic and demonstrative. Why didn't she leave her cell phone and iPad with the dog and the money, if she didn't need them in the afterlife?

ETA: to me, LB was stuck in a drama queen state where she might threaten suicide or make a calculated attempt she knew would fail in order to get attention. The last thing that she would do IMO is seek to disappear without getting revenge in her relationships.

Something about this always reminds me of poor Miriam Makhniashvili. Teams of people actively searched for her, with great assistance from the media at the time, and still it wasn't discovered that she had committed suicide for years. In a city with millions of people, she was found years later, a short distance from both the busiest highway and one of the busiest streets, in a public space that had previously been searched. At least she was finally found, some suicide victims are never found.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...-makhniashvilis-disappearance/article4096262/

All my opinion only.

Suicide is an act of anger and violence, and there was a lot of violence in MM's home. There was financial insecurity. There was a woman's doomed role in a traditional culture. Immigration, language and cultural barriers, isolation issues. IMO MM's social isolation was expressed in the way that she died.

LB was not socially isolated at all. She was a social butterfly and party girl. However she knew where to find trouble, and that led her to DM.

 

[SnooperDuper]

Why wouldn't she ask him for drugs? He seems to have been spending lots of time with MS who had previous drug charges and who also seemed to be pretty tight with MWJ who seemed to have connections to the drug and weapons world. In fact, if he wasn't living with him yet, he would be a few months later (according to ABro). Why would she ask him for money if she had a shoebox full of it?

JMO

Exactly: DM was a drug connection.

 

[Alethea Dice]

IF LB was so full of anger and despair at the people in her life, wouldn't she SHOW them what they had done to her by leaving her body, and a note, to SHOW people what she had been driven to?

LB was fairly emotional and impulsive, judging by her behavior. She fought with people and had tantrums. Are we expected to believe that she could coolly calculate a way to disappear in that emotional state, or want to "just disappear" without having the last word (suicide note)? She was very dramatic and demonstrative. Why didn't she leave her cell phone and iPad with the dog and the money, if she didn't need them in the afterlife?

ETA: to me, LB was stuck in a drama queen state where she might threaten suicide or make a calculated attempt she knew would fail in order to get attention. The last thing that she would do IMO is seek to disappear without getting revenge in her relationships.



Suicide is an act of anger and violence, and there was a lot of violence in MM's home. There was financial insecurity. There was a woman's doomed role in a traditional culture. Immigration, language and cultural barriers, isolation issues. IMO MM's social isolation was expressed in the way that she died.

LB was not socially isolated at all. She was a social butterfly and party girl. However she knew where to find trouble, and that led her to DM.

I don't usually find that people who suffer from depression commit suicide as a form of "revenge". When one feels isolated and alone, I don't think it would be a normal reaction to advertise that one was going to commit suicide to show others what "they had done to her". SL had an informative post on the Help find Laura page on June 6, 2013 at 2:50 if anyone cares to take another look at it. I've never thought of suicide as an act of anger and violence. More of an act of desperation and despair and hopelessness.

JMO