George Floyd death / Derek Chauvin trial - Sidebar week 3

[wasnt_me]

If Tobin means 5 minutes from the time of swallowing, doesn't that mean Mr. Floyd was well beyond the 'danger zone' for depressed respiration because the fentanyl was already in his bloodstream as opposed to undigested pills? It takes 30 minutes for 90% of a tablet to dissolve in stomach acid, on average. And either way, no coma kinda nixes a fentanyl OD. JMO

Well, he said from "ingesting." That's different. And it's a hypothetical because we don't know that GF swallowed or ingested anything at 7:18pm.

I take ingestion to mean absorption because you can't get the affect of a pill unless it's in the blood stream. Doesn't it have to be absorbed into the blood for an effect?

 

[BritsKate]

The drugs were a contributing factor. JMO

Maybe but drugs also play a role in positional asphyxia deaths too so it makes it impossible for me to remove officer culpability even if I concede such. I think Mr. Floyd would not have died that day were it not for the officers involved. MOO

 

[MsBetsy]

The drugs were a contributing factor. JMO

That may be true, but I don't think the defense has proven the drugs or his health condition was the cause of his death. The autopsy lists those things as underlying factors, so the jury may see no reason to doubt that.

As long as they believe the police restraints and neck and back compression were a major factor, Chauvin can be found guilty of the charges.

I think the prosecution has proven the manslaughter charge and at least one of the murder charges. Imo

 

[Deleted member 39678]

I don't disagree. However the charges aren't concerned with contributing factors, they're concerned with causal factors.

From proposed jury instructions - "The fact that other causes contribute to the death does not relieve the defendant of criminal liability."

Proposed jury instructions? Have they been approved?

What if the defense says that the drugs, health conditions, carbon monoxide were causal factors in GF's death?

 

[wasnt_me]

Some may be absorbed in the mouth through the mucosa.
(I've not specifically checked Fentanyl in this regard and because it was probably a street drug it would not have been manufactured to the same standards as a licensed pharmaceutical drug)

Yes, this is a question I asked in the live thread. I asked if one can get high off having a pill under the tongue.

If that's the case though, and they mean ingestion through the cells in the mouth. Well, GF had that pill in his mouth all the way back at the Mercedes, so that 7:18pm time frame is irrelevant if it was ingesting it somehow through the mouth.

Anyone respectfully disagree with that?

 

[MsBetsy]

Proposed jury instructions? Have they been approved?

What if the defense says that the drugs, health conditions, carbon monoxide were causal factors in GF's death?

All the prosecution has to prove is that the police actions were a substantial causal factor in Floyd's death. There could be ten contributing factors and I don't think it would make a difference unless those things were the cause of death.

The ME stated that a drug overdose was not the cause of death, and listed the manner of death as a homicide. Imo

 

[Deleted member 39678]

FENTANYL : Incapacitating Agent

DESCRIPTION: Fentanyl is a member of the class of drugs known as fentanyls, rapid-acting opioid (synthetic opiate) drugs that alleviate pain without causing loss of consciousness (analgesic). Fentanyl depresses central nervous system (CNS) and respiratory function. Exposure to fentanyl may be fatal. Fentanyl is estimated to be 80 times as potent as morphine and hundreds of times more potent than heroin. It is a drug of abuse. Fentanyl (and other opioids) could possibly be used as an incapacitating agent to impair a person’s ability to function. In October 2002, the Russian military reportedly used “a fentanyl derivative” against terrorists holding hostages in a Moscow theater; 127 of the hostages died. (It is unclear whether the gas used also included other chemical agent(s).) Fentanyl is odorless.

CDC - The Emergency Response Safety and Health Database: Incapacitating Agent: FENTANYL - NIOSH

 

[GarAndTeed]

Here's Gareth:

 

[wasnt_me]

Only the toxicology results matter IMO but...

• TIME COURSE: Peak analgesia occurs within several minutes of intravenous (IV) administration. The duration of analgesia is 30 to 60 minutes after a single dose of up to 100 µg. Dermal exposure to fentanyl results in absorption over hours to days. Oral exposure occurs in two phases. Initial exposure will occur within in a few minutes, with absorption through the intestinal tract occurring over 2 hours. Inhalation of fentanyl results in rapid absorption.

CDC - The Emergency Response Safety and Health Database: Incapacitating Agent: FENTANYL - NIOSH.

Now, here, this poster has bolded that orally, it could take a few minutes to absorb though the mouth. So again -- GF had that pill in his mouth all the way back to before he was pulled out of the car.

 

[turaj]

I really wish the prosecution would have saved Dr. Tobin for the last.

They may have...he may be back!

 

[MsBetsy]

Yes, this is a question I asked in the live thread. I asked if one can get high off having a pill under the tongue.

If that's the case though, and they mean ingestion through the cells in the mouth. Well, GF had that pill in his mouth all the way back at the Mercedes, so that 7:18pm time frame is irrelevant if it was ingesting it somehow through the mouth.

Anyone respectfully disagree with that?

I don't. There are so many variables it's impossible to come to a conclusion. We don't know how much fentanyl was in each pill, how much he had taken earlier, or what the pill was coated with to make it easier or harder to dissolve. Imo

 

[Katerz]

Maybe but drugs also play a role in positional asphyxia deaths too so it makes it impossible for me to remove officer culpability even if I concede such. I think Mr. Floyd would not have died that day were it not for the officers involved. MOO

I mean.. George survived the may 2019 incident and he was on drugs then as well.. so I agree

 

[kittythehare]

Yes, this is a question I asked in the live thread. I asked if one can get high off having a pill under the tongue.

If that's the case though, and they mean ingestion through the cells in the mouth. Well, GF had that pill in his mouth all the way back at the Mercedes, so that 7:18pm time frame is irrelevant if it was ingesting it somehow through the mouth.

Anyone respectfully disagree with that?

Ingesting just means 'taking'
That can be orally, intravenously, intramuscularly, sub lingually, rectally, dermally.
The speed of absorption of a drug can depend upon the mode of administration.
For example , intravenously would be extremely fast.
The way in which a drug is made is another factor, tablets come in all shapes and sizes, some are soft lactose and these would release the active drug quite quickly into the system, depending upon the drug and the mode of administration.

Absorption and ingestion are not the same thing and do not mean the same thing.

 

[wasnt_me]

I don't. There are so many variables it's impossible to come to a conclusion. We don't know how much fentanyl was in each pill, how much he had taken earlier, or what the pill was coated with to make it easier or harder to dissolve. Imo

I completely agree. In fact, according to his stomach contents, what was in the back of the car might be all he had in his mouth also.

 

[MsBetsy]

Here's Gareth:
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Adorable! You must have many happy memories.

 

[Katerz]

Proposed jury instructions? Have they been approved?

What if the defense says that the drugs, health conditions, carbon monoxide were causal factors in GF's death?

But he most likely would not have died that day if it was not for DC’s knee on him cutting off his oxygen. Per medical witnesses

 

[wasnt_me]

I don't. There are so many variables it's impossible to come to a conclusion. We don't know how much fentanyl was in each pill, how much he had taken earlier, or what the pill was coated with to make it easier or harder to dissolve. Imo

I think we can conclude that what the toxicology report says is what GF ingested and metabolized.

 

[MadMcGoo]

Here's Gareth:
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Thanks for sharing these! I’m deeply sorry for your loss.

 

[wasnt_me]

Ingesting just means 'taking'
That can be orally, intravenously, intramuscularly, sub lingually, rectally, dermally.
The speed of absorption of a drug can depend upon the mode of administration.
For example , intravenously would be extremely fast.
The way in which a drug is made is another factor, tablets come in all shapes and sizes, some are soft lactose and these would release the active drug quite quickly into the system, depending upon the drug and the mode of administration.

Absorption and ingestion are not the same thing and do not mean the same thing.

in·ges·tion
/inˈjesCHən/

noun

1. the process of taking food, drink, or another substance into the body by swallowing or absorbing it.
   "vomiting after ingestion of contaminated food"
   • the process of absorbing information.
     "the quiet ingestion of information"

Is anyone disputing that the body has to "absorb" the drug into the bloodstream for it to have an effect? Please tell me what I am missing about it because that's my understanding. If I'm wrong, I'd like to know.

 

[bluebird69]

Here's Gareth:
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Adorable