GUILTY Greece - Caroline Crouch, 20, British, tortured and murdered, Athens, 11 May 2021 *Appeal filed 2023* #5

  • #321
So...
According to you nothing could be done b/c mad murderer B was on the loose?
C and her friend talked in the park for some time before B appeared.

If she wanted to run free, she could have given the letter, or just ask her friend to alarm her parents.

I think they both triggered each other fighting madly (furniture flying and destroyed), quarreling bitterly about money and family issues.
And the baby was in the middle of this war.

Where is your evidence she was going to stay? Furniture would not have tumbled or fallen down the stairs, and so maybe it was C who fell. According to me, none of C's actions or lack thereof, caused her murder. No woulda coulda shoulda example will work to do anything other than blame her, b/c she's dead. According to evidence, B controlled every aspect of C's life, she told him she wanted a divorce, and B chose to kill her the night she started looking for a place to stay. Beating a dead Caroline is not going to change the fact that B chose to murder her. They are not both to blame for her death.
 
  • #322
Tayaway said: "None of the mistakes C made are responsible for her death."

How could you say that? I think you have misinterpreted what Dotta and I have been saying. We have never stated that C caused her own death due to her choices or mistakes as you have called them.

CC simply did not know about narcissism and how a narcissist will build you up and then degrade you and finally discard you if they can. Few people understand narcissism in this society. Many of our leaders are narcissists. But narcissists are on a spectrum from low to high. Hitler was at the highest level. Not every narcissist is a murderer.

Tayaway said: "Narcissism did not kill C; Babis did."

If B had not been a narcissist high on the spectrum IMO he would not have killed CC.
 
  • #323
Tayaway said: "None of the mistakes C made are responsible for her death."

How could you say that? I think you have misinterpreted what Dotta and I have been saying. We have never stated that C caused her own death due to her choices or mistakes as you have called them.

CC simply did not know about narcissism and how a narcissist will build you up and then degrade you and finally discard you if they can. Few people understand narcissism in this society. Many of our leaders are narcissists. But narcissists are on a spectrum from low to high. Hitler was at the highest level. Not every narcissist is a murderer.

Tayaway said: "Narcissism did not kill C; Babis did."

If B had not been a narcissist high on the spectrum IMO he would not have killed CC.

Victim blaming is doing the 'if only she had done' - he killed her b/c he chose to. And saying 'CC simply did not know about narcissism' is again blaming her. If only she'd known, she wouldn't have gotten involved with him! eta: These opinions of C and what she coulda woulda shoulda done are excuses for the killer. eta: These what ifs put the onus, the burden, on victims to protect themselves from predators. We need to change our view to actually put the blame where it belongs, on the perp. Yes, but what was she wearing?

Mental illness is not an excuse for abuse - ever. No, B is responsible for killing C. eta: If mental illness or a disorder were responsible, why is it he never killed a family member or co-worker? Why didn't he control people other than his wife?
 
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  • #324
They were both the people that should have never ever met.

But Fate decided differently.

I only hope and pray that Lydia will somehow find happiness.
 
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  • #325
  • #326
Tayway you have been trying to claim that Dotta and I are victim blaming but that is not what we are about. We love the sweet Caroline that we have learnt about through the media as much as you do. In fact, I have never thought of C from what we have been told of her as a victim until she was murdered.

I am sure Dotta and I love CC as much as you do but what you do not seem to even understand or accept is that anyone, including me, can be fooled by a narcissist and narcissism is what drives B to do what he has done. But it is never an excuse.

Tayaway said: "Mental illness is not an excuse for abuse - ever."

Narcissism is not even treated as a mental illness or mitigating factor in most trials so, don't worry his sentence will not be reduced because of his narcissism.

Tayaway said: "No, B is responsible for killing C. eta: If mental illness or a disorder were responsible, why is it he never killed a family member or co-worker? Why didn't he control people other than his wife?"

Of course B is responsible for killing C by manual strangulation even while she was asleep which is an abhorrent and personal act for such a coward to do.
B is not a serial killer. IMO he is a sociopath not a psychopath.

Tayaway said: "Why didn't B choose a family member or co-worker to kill or control?"

Narcissists crave attention, adoration, admiration, affection and affirmation ( I call it the 5As) so if they are not getting it from the one they are most involved with for their self-esteem, they can go into a narcissistic rage which can build up to murder. B was expecting to receive his 5As from CC as he had invested so much time and energy into her already that when she announced to him that night that she was looking for alternative accommodation and wanted to divorce him, his reaction was narcissistic rage which led to C's demise.
 
  • #327
I think we'd better finish this debate as it might lead to thread closing.
 
  • #328
  • #329
I think we'd better finish this debate as it might lead to thread closing.

I have said all I want to say now.
 
  • #330
  • #331
For a single life sentence, an inmate can become eligible for parole after serving 16 years.

Life imprisonment in Greece - Wikipedia

There is no death penalty in Greece.
Does it mean he will be under constant supervision when he leaves prison?
I mean, in case of any offence, can he be imprisoned again?
I wonder.
 
  • #332
16 years doesn't seem long. He will only be 50 when he gets out.
 
  • #333
16 years doesn't seem long. He will only be 50 when he gets out.
 
  • #334
16 years doesn't seem long. He will only be 50 when he gets out.
 
  • #335
16 years doesn't seem long. He will only be 50 when he gets out.
And he might even leave prison earlier for good behaviour!
I bet he will be a paragon of an inmate feeding cats and what not!
 
  • #336
Does it mean he will be under constant supervision when he leaves prison?
I mean, in case of any offence, can he be imprisoned again?
I wonder.

I don't think he will be under constant supervision when he leaves prison but if he commits a further offence he could be imprisoned again. But I do not know Greek law.
 
  • #337
And he might even leave prison earlier for good behaviour!
I bet he will be a paragon of an inmate feeding cats and what not!

He will get out early, for feeding the cats without strangling them, and his prison job, which apparently knocks time off his sentence.
 
  • #338
I have just had a few days off, and so this comment stems from a little way back in the thread, and is therefore out of the timeline - it is to do with B & C's secret wedding. I just wonder if Caroline, being so young, thought that eloping was just so "romantic", rather than deception. I could see that happening.
 
  • #339
I have just had a few days off, and so this comment stems from a little way back in the thread, and is therefore out of the timeline - it is to do with B & C's secret wedding. I just wonder if Caroline, being so young, thought that eloping was just so "romantic", rather than deception. I could see that happening.
Yes, she was a princess and he a knight on a (flying) horse!
 
  • #340

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