Greece - Caroline Crouch, 20, tortured and murdered, Athens, 11 May 2021 #4 *ARREST*

[Dotta]

It was same type of controlling relationship. The point was such age difference are not that uncommon it does not usually end in murder. But the control dynamic is often present. Moo

I wouldn't know - I got to know his music many years after his death. But in all partnerships one person is a dominant one. Being obssessively controlling has nothing to do with age but character disorder.

 

[Skigh]

Elvis Presley was 25 and Priscilla was 14 when they started dating. I understand the anger at murder but the anger at age difference I do not understand. Moo

An underage girl and a man in his late 20's and you do not understand the anger about age differences???

 

[Dotta]

I think in case of C she was failed by all adults in her life. They were all blinded by the status of B. Like in the case of Elvis and Priscilla. Both girls were naive and romantic but it is adults' task to protect and explain.

 

[tayaway]

I think in case of C she was failed by all adults in her life. They were all blinded by the status of B. Like in the case of Elvis and Priscilla. Both girls were naive and romantic but it is adults' task to protect and explain.

Elvis the Pelvis! The power dynamic was so imbalanced, Elvis dictated everything down to Priscilla's mascara. She had to be awake for him at night so he gave her drugs to stay awake when she went to high school. Ya, real healthy relationships happen, when these older men prey upon minors. Just because it happens doesn't make it right. It's all about control, this type of male needs a child he can mold (yes, Elvis did say P was young enough for him to mold, you can google it). Of course, he had all kinds of chicks on the side, as was his right as a star, but she had to be faithful and - oh, hold on, she has to go put on more mascara...

 

[Dotta]

Elvis the Pelvis! The power dynamic was so imbalanced, Elvis dictated everything down to Priscilla's mascara. She had to be awake for him at night so he gave her drugs to stay awake when she went to high school. Ya, real healthy relationships happen, when these older men who prey upon minors. Just because it happens doesn't make it right. It's all about control, this type of male needs a child he can mold (yes, Elvis did say P was young enough for him to mold, you can google it). Of course, he had all kinds of chicks on the side, as was his right as a star, but she had to be faithful and - oh, hold on, she has to go put on more mascara...

It all depends on person's character, whether the person suffers from a disorder or not. But of course, disturbed people seek the weakest (teens for example, or the old). They feel powerful confronted with the vulnerable. But confront them with sb strong (physically or mentally) - they run away as quickly as their legs can carry them. They are bullies always choosing the weakest. It has nothing to to with age but disturbed personality.

 

[nao]

Emmanuel Macron was 15 his wife to be was 40. I am just not quite understanding why the age difference and murder is connected. Or why people are so shocked by age difference. Moo

 

[Tiny]

Emmanuel Macron was 15 his wife to be was 40. I am just not quite understanding why the age difference and murder is connected. Or why people are so shocked by age difference. Moo

Without going off topic, the age gap between the Macrons did cause shock at the time in France amongst friends and family. Even now the tabloids in the UK and France do attract comment when they feature the Macrons.
Caroline was an ordinary girl who was incredibly talented and bright. From her friends and family’s recollections, the world was her oyster.
B love bombed her and wooed her when she was a school girl. He was a grown man in her twenties. Their age gap is one of many shocking issues. If Caroline was in her twenties, the gap would not be an issue but clearly it is important to recognise it in this case.

 

[Dotta]

And yet nobody intervened. Macron's parents did - they sent him to another school. But still they got married when he came of age.

 

[tayaway]

And yet nobody intervened. Macron's parents did - they sent him to another school. But still they got married when he came of age.

Macron's situation - she was his bloody teacher! No no no! As @Tiny said, adults pursuing minors is wrong. 2 consenting adults, even 70 years apart, sure, enjoy, do the Hugh Hefner thing, but not with the underaged.

Emmanuel Macron was 15 his wife to be was 40. I am just not quite understanding why the age difference and murder is connected. Or why people are so shocked by age difference. Moo

Macron was a minor, unable to make legal decisions on his own, while his teacher (later wife...) was a mature adult with power over him in a position of authority. She seduced him, she breached the trust given to her. The age difference matters because it involves a child. Priscilla Presley, Macron, C... they are all victims of predators. What those predators did to them is wrong. It's called jail bait for a reason, to protect children.

 

[Winterbells]

Emmanuel Macron was 15 his wife to be was 40. I am just not quite understanding why the age difference and murder is connected. Or why people are so shocked by age difference. Moo

Nobody's shocked by the age difference.
Men often pursue women who are far younger than themselves.
And girls sometimes become enamoured with older men.
But some men kill women. Quite a lot in fact.
(Some women kill men, but nothing like as frequently).
Men who groom children for sex are dangerous. They know they're exploiting their adult power over the minor.
Dangerous men are a danger to women (and men and animals).

edited to include (and older women sometimes pursue an underage boy and vice versa)

 

[Dotta]

Macron's situation - she was his bloody teacher! No no no! As @Tiny said, adults pursuing minors is wrong. 2 consenting adults, even 70 years apart, sure, enjoy, do the Hugh Hefner thing, but not with the underaged.

That is why parents should talk and explain things to their children. This is what upbringing is about. There was a man in Poland during WWII. His name was Janusz Korczak. He was an educator, a teacher in a Jewish orphanage. And he said: "Children want to be good. If they cant - teach them. If they dont understand - explain. If they cant do sth - help them". And he went to Auschwitz with his orphan pupils and they all died in the gas chamber. He went with them, didnt desert them. Parents all over the world should take this man's words to heart.

 

[tayaway]

protothema.gr July 4

Boat captain discusses the mission to transport B from C's memorial back to the mainland.

"Caroline's killer laughed as if he were on a cruise" - What happened to the secret transport operation in Skiathos

«Ο δολοφόνος της Καρολάιν γελούσε σαν να ήταν σε κρουαζιέρα» - Τι έγινε στη μυστική επιχείρηση μεταφοράς στη Σκιάθο

 

[Lindsay Lou Who]

Shall we take up the B accuracy challenge? C's 18th bday was July 12, 2019. According to her FB, they got married 3 days later, on July 15. If we go by B's assertion from jail, that the miscarriage happened after they were married, this is the approximate math I come up with, for curiosity's sake:

The Sun June 23 2020:
"Caroline became pregnant a few weeks after we got married," he told a judge in an Athens court.
"Unfortunately, when she was three months pregnant, Caroline miscarried, and since then her behaviour had been gradually changing.
"But the catalyst for the change in Caroline’s behaviour was the miscarriage of her first pregnancy.
"From that moment on, she started to have aggressive outbursts and explosions towards me."

Let's say B is accurate, for this exercise. C got pregnant July 29th, 2019. 3 months later, on Oct 29, she miscarried and became aggressive. Now, we have to take baby L's June 3rd preemie birth into account. The earliest a woman can ovulate after a miscarriage is 2 weeks or 14 days. So of course, C got pregnant again on Nov 12, 2019, with baby L. Her due date would have been Aug 18, 2020. She delivered baby L on June 3, 2020, 2.5 months early, after 29 weeks gestation, leaving baby L in the NICU for quite a while, with chances of complications. If B is telling the truth, we will have to assume they conceived baby L right on the 2 week miscarriage mark, in this example, or baby L will have a lifetime of developmental issues, being born at 28 or 27 or 26 weeks etc...

And wow, ok, so she turned into this aggressive husband beater, so why on earth did he want to try again for kids, let alone so quickly? Why on earth would he want to bring a child into the world who'd have a violent, mentally disturbed mother?

Regarding Lydia's gestation at birth. My best friends son was born in 2018 at 26 weeks and 6 days, and although it was a very scary traumatic time with him spending the first three months of his life in hospital over an hour from their home he is now a very healthy, happy, talkative and bright three year old and is reaching all of his milestones and has been discharged from the watchful eye of the paediatric team. Modern medicine and technology is absolutely amazing thankfully.

 

[Estelle]

I think in case of C she was failed by all adults in her life. They were all blinded by the status of B. Like in the case of Elvis and Priscilla. Both girls were naive and romantic but it is adults' task to protect and explain.

Age of consent in Greece is 15yo.
Legal age of marriage is 18yo.

As far as we know, C and B did not break the law. I hold C's parents responsible for allowing/encouraging the relationship in the first place but perhaps they were brainwashed or hoodwinked. I would have spoken to my daughter advising her that marriage and having children can wait, it is more important to go to university, get a career, date different men and find out who you are before you make such an important decision of choosing a life partner. My daughter often asked me about the guys she dated and I gave her honest feedback. She is now married to a great guy.

If B was such a great catch being a helicopter pilot, why did he always have to ask C's mother for money? He was not even a good provider. I would have advised her to refuse to give him any money. (I also think B could have "cried poor" for a reason and perhaps C's mother spoiled her as she was the youngest child.)

 

[Estelle]

DBM

 

[Skigh]

Age of consent in Greece is 15yo.
Legal age of marriage is 18yo.

As far as we know, C and B did not break the law. I hold C's parents responsible for allowing/encouraging the relationship in the first place but perhaps they were brainwashed or hoodwinked. I would have spoken to my daughter advising her that marriage and having children can wait, it is more important to go to university, get a career, date different men and find out who you are before you make such an important decision of choosing a life partner. My daughter often asked me about the guys she dated and I gave her honest feedback. She is now married to a great guy.

If B was such a great catch being a helicopter pilot, why did he always have to ask C's mother for money? He was not even a good provider. I would have advised her to refuse to give him any money. (I also think B could have "cried poor" for a reason and perhaps C's mother spoiled her as she was the youngest child.)

Just a thought and probably way out.

But is there any possibility B was blackmailing C's mother or had some other financial hold over her?

 

[Estelle]

Just a thought and probably way out.

But is there any possibility B was blackmailing C's mother or had some other financial hold over her?

It certainly looks that way - blackmail or bribery?

I know this is not true but it sometimes looks as if Susana was paying B to be her daughter's husband. How many parents do you know who feel obliged to pay 1,000 euros per month to a couple who are married? They should have to stand on their own two feet. Was this an arrangement Susan made with B before B married C? I would have told my daughter to wait to have children and get a job or finish her studies first. Why was C so keen to get married and have children? Was it a cultural thing?

 

[Skigh]

It certainly looks that way - blackmail or bribery?

I know this is not true but it sometimes looks as if Susana was paying B to be her daughter's husband. How many parents do you know who feel obliged to pay 1,000 euros per month to a couple who are married? They should have to stand on their own two feet. Was this an arrangement Susan made with B before B married C? I would have told my daughter to wait to have children and get a job or finish her studies first. Why was C so keen to get married and have children? Was it a cultural thing?

Could also be protection for her business or other threats.

 

[tayaway]

It certainly looks that way - blackmail or bribery?

I know this is not true but it sometimes looks as if Susana was paying B to be her daughter's husband. How many parents do you know who feel obliged to pay 1,000 euros per month to a couple who are married? They should have to stand on their own two feet. Was this an arrangement Susan made with B before B married C? I would have told my daughter to wait to have children and get a job or finish her studies first. Why was C so keen to get married and have children? Was it a cultural thing?

I highly doubt it had anything to do with a cultural stereotype. Let's remember that the wedding dress designer said both sets of parents were against the marriage and that's partly why they eloped and married 3 days after C's 18th birthday. We've already established, with stats, earlier in this thread that women in the Philippines on average, get married well into their 20s.

C was very independent, and wanted to continue her promising kick boxing career. At the same time, B started grooming her when she was 14. That has a profound affect on her psyche. He methodically broke her down into a depressed teen with low self-esteem. I can say this from experience, as it happened to me when I was an adult, plus, her ?diaries? back this assertion. He used a chopper that did not belong to him, to mesmerize her, her teen pals, and her parents. Hey, wait a minute, he sure does have a good habit of utilizing things/money that doesn't belong to him to enhance his persona. From C's godbrother's perspective, it was B that pressured C to have kids right away.

Racial stereotypes and victim blaming are not the cause here; the simple answer is that a 27 year old adult predator targeted a 14 year old minor.

 

[MsBetsy]

It certainly looks that way - blackmail or bribery?

I know this is not true but it sometimes looks as if Susana was paying B to be her daughter's husband. How many parents do you know who feel obliged to pay 1,000 euros per month to a couple who are married? They should have to stand on their own two feet. Was this an arrangement Susan made with B before B married C? I would have told my daughter to wait to have children and get a job or finish her studies first. Why was C so keen to get married and have children? Was it a cultural thing?

I think it would have been easy for B to manipulate Caroline's parents since he was married to their daughter. They would have wanted the best for her. He was probably a moocher who not only accepted money from her parents, but from his own parents as well. That's probably what enabled him to pay for vacations instead of using his own money to put down on the lot and pay for the funeral. Imo