Gun Control Debate #4

[rsd1200]

Did an Obama-Era School Discipline Policy Contribute to the Parkland Shooting?

https://www.usnews.com/news/educati...ntribute-to-the-parkland-shooting?context=amp

"Disturbing reports have indicated that federal guidance may have contributed to systemic failures to report Nikolas Cruz's dangerous behaviors to local law enforcement," Rubio wrote to Secretary of Education Betsy DeVos and Attorney General Jeff Sessions in a joint letter dated Monday.

At issue is a "Dear Colleague" letter and guidance from the previous administration, issued in 2014, which aimed to stem the school-to-prison pipeline by prodding schools to reduce the number of suspensions and expulsions, especially for students of color and students with disabilities, both of whom receive disciplinary actions at disproportionately high rates.

Kids who are expelled or out of school suspended, have far too much time on their hands, unsupervised. Give them In School Suspension, or after school suspension. As I've said before, I was able to take my wayward one to work with me. Not everyone is that fortunate. You can't put a kid over 13, in daycare. Calling LE, or suspending a kid, over a fist fight, bringing to school, a plastic army man holding a rifle, or chewing your poptart into the shape of gun, is not good. It just ostracizes them further and gives them a lot of time on their hands to surf that net.

A student threatening mass murder is a student in crisis.Simply getting such youths out of school by suspension or expulsion does not resolve the crisis. These students need attention,not rejection. This does not mean that there should be no consequences for serious threats of violence. Students may need to be out of school for a variety of reasons, including their own mental health, as well as the safety of the school. While out of school, however, students on the verge of violence need to be monitored and receiving treatment.There are two points being made here:1. Suspensions or expulsions need to be used in the appropriate situations, not as knee-jerk responses to any possible threat.2. Suspending or expelling a student does not necessarily prevent violence. It may be a necessary response, but it should not be the only response.(1)

Our former POTUS got two gun laws through Congress during his two terms in office, and both gun laws that he signed, actually expanded the rights of gun owners in the United States. His attempts to limit the size of gun magazines, expand background checks of gun buyers and ban gun sales to buyers on terrorism watch lists all failed to pass.

Perhaps the most significant Obama gun control measure was not a law but a rule that required the Social Security Administration to report disability-benefit recipients with mental health conditions to the FBI’s background check system, which is used to screen firearm buyers. his successor, rescinded the rule in 2017.

That is not to say Obama was not critical of the use of guns to commit the numerous mass shootings and acts of terrorism during his tenure in the White House. Quite the opposite. Obama sharply criticized the gun lobby and the easy access to firearms.

Ten Lessons Learned
(1) https://schoolshooters.info/sites/default/files/ten_lessons_1.2.pdf

List of Obama's Gun Control Measures and Executive Orders
(2) https://www.thoughtco.com/obama-gun-laws-passed-by-congress-3367595

 

[rsd1200]

This happened in my state. Former teacher turned cop. I remember when it happened, lots of folks were not happy.

Both children (ages 10 & 9) were being punished for behavior related to their disabilities, officials with the Children’s Law Center and counsel for the children said in a news release Friday.

In 2015, Robert Sanders, the school resource officer’s attorney, told the Herald-Leader that Kevin Sumner put the children in handcuffs because “they were placing themselves and other people in danger of harm and that’s what the book says to do.”
“Kevin Sumner is one of the best and most highly trained school resource officers in Kentucky,” Sanders said at the time. “He’s a teacher who left that profession to become a police officer. He’s totally devoted to kids and schools and education.”

http://www.kentucky.com/news/local/education/article178791896.html

 

[human]

What can be done about parents like this?

http://kstp.com/news/vadnais-heights-father-son-charged-weapons-seizure/4813544/

The criminal complaint against Christopher Stowe states Ramsey County deputies first responded to a report of the threats on March 1. A complaining witness reportedly said the 13-year-old had "told a classmate that he was going to kill him and that he had a list of students he was going to kill."

The complaint alleges a deputy responded to the school, where officials reportedly told him the 13-year-old had been suspended for the threats. The release states the deputy heard that when the 13-year-old was being removed from class that day, he was alleged to have said, "Hide in the closet when I come back, because I will start shooting then."

........................

The complaint alleges the search turned up a "significant number of firearms, ammunition and firearms parts. Law enforcement officials also located two possible explosive devices."

It also alleges law enforcement recovered several trigger kits hidden in the ceiling of the residence, which the complaint claims appeared "to be conversion kits for converting weapons to automatic weapons." Deputies also reportedly recovered literature on how to convert a semi-automatic weapon into an automatic one.

The complaint alleges law enforcement officials observed several of the firearms were loaded and located out in the open, accessible to children.

According to the criminal complaint against Lisa Stowe filed Monday, multiple pistols inside a dresser drawer in the master bedroom, all with magazines reportedly fully loaded with bullets. And a pistol was allegedly found inside a book on a master bedroom nightstand, fully loaded with magazines containing 9 millimeter bullets.

ATF agents reportedly determined one of the guns met the legal definition of a machine gun and another met the legal definition for a short-barreled shotgun under Minnesota statutes.

 

[Lulu_la_Nantaise]

< snipped down for space>

The counting of school shootings, and of other types of shootings and incidents of mass violence, isn’t a straightforward process.

Starting in 2008, the FBI limited its definition of mass shootings to a single incident in which a shooter kills four or more people. In 2012, Congress officially defines "mass killings" as incident in which three or more people die. In 2013, the FBI changed the name to "active shooter" and a mass shooting is considered one in which fewer than four people die. The definition change makes historical study of the issue especially complicated given the variation in what counted as a mass shooting before 2008 and what counts now.

The lack of reliable information on school shootings and other gun-related mass violence isn’t just a matter of inconsistency in definitions; political factors have also played a role in limiting access to information. Under pressure from the National Rifle Association, Congress in 1996 prohibited the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention from funding public-health research on issues related to firearms. These prohibitions have largely persisted, and there is still no comprehensive federal database on gun deaths, let alone on school shootings.

https://www.theatlantic.com/educati...ther-school-shootingbut-whos-counting/553412/

BBM

Can we start a conspiracy theory? The NRA has been infiltrated by Russian moles in order to bring down the USA through gun violence. And unlike Alex Jones' garbage, that one makes sense and fits the facts.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Another fact about Australian gun ownership. Children between the ages of 11 (12 in some states) and 17 can legally own and use guns as long as they get a minor's gun licence and are under the supervision of an adult licensed gun owner. The children have to take a gun safety course.

Hi, Jennifer!

 

[Bernina]

https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/201...ere-s-how-to-prevent-the-next-school-shooting

[h=1]Here's How To Prevent The Next School Shooting, Experts Say[/h]

 

[Elley Mae]

No Thank You.


Each of these levels offers a distinct set of policy recommendations, beginning with a national call-to-action to promote positive school climate and a ban of all assault-style weapons.

https://education.ucsb.edu/news/201...tement-authors-recently-released-“call-action

 

[Doghairrules]

Interesting oped in the Baker Act and our broken mental health system.

How a Bad Law and a Big Mistake Drove My Mentally Ill Son Away https://nyti.ms/2FYbgrf

 

[Bernina]

No Thank You.


Each of these levels offers a distinct set of policy recommendations, beginning with a national call-to-action to promote positive school climate and a ban of all assault-style weapons.

https://education.ucsb.edu/news/201...-authors-recently-released-&#8220;call-action

What exactly are you opposed to?

https://education.ucsb.edu/sites/de...tion FINAL for DISSEMINATION 2-28-18 10am.pdf

 

[Elley Mae]

What exactly are you opposed to?

https://education.ucsb.edu/sites/de...tion FINAL for DISSEMINATION 2-28-18 10am.pdf

A psychologist pushing for a gun ban. He should stick to being a psychologist & fix them before they become murderers.

 

[flourish]

A psychologist pushing for a gun ban. He should stick to being a psychologist & fix them before they become murderers.

What exactly do you mean by "fix them." And how exactly does a psychologist go about doing that?

Do you mean treatment and therapy and ongoing services and support to manage symptoms of mental illness?

People aren't "fixed." They aren't broken objects.

 

[Jennifer17]

Interesting oped in the Baker Act and our broken mental health system.

How a Bad Law and a Big Mistake Drove My Mentally Ill Son Away https://nyti.ms/2FYbgrf

Good article.

 

[Blef]

What can be done about parents like this?

http://kstp.com/news/vadnais-heights-father-son-charged-weapons-seizure/4813544/

The criminal complaint against Christopher Stowe states Ramsey County deputies first responded to a report of the threats on March 1. A complaining witness reportedly said the 13-year-old had "told a classmate that he was going to kill him and that he had a list of students he was going to kill."

The complaint alleges a deputy responded to the school, where officials reportedly told him the 13-year-old had been suspended for the threats. The release states the deputy heard that when the 13-year-old was being removed from class that day, he was alleged to have said, "Hide in the closet when I come back, because I will start shooting then."

........................

The complaint alleges the search turned up a "significant number of firearms, ammunition and firearms parts. Law enforcement officials also located two possible explosive devices."

It also alleges law enforcement recovered several trigger kits hidden in the ceiling of the residence, which the complaint claims appeared "to be conversion kits for converting weapons to automatic weapons." Deputies also reportedly recovered literature on how to convert a semi-automatic weapon into an automatic one.

The complaint alleges law enforcement officials observed several of the firearms were loaded and located out in the open, accessible to children.

According to the criminal complaint against Lisa Stowe filed Monday, multiple pistols inside a dresser drawer in the master bedroom, all with magazines reportedly fully loaded with bullets. And a pistol was allegedly found inside a book on a master bedroom nightstand, fully loaded with magazines containing 9 millimeter bullets.

ATF agents reportedly determined one of the guns met the legal definition of a machine gun and another met the legal definition for a short-barreled shotgun under Minnesota statutes.

This parent should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Multiple guns, sitting loaded waiting to be taken, where a child can just take them. And one is a machine gun. And they had kits to change a semi to a fully auto! This is exactly why gun control isn't working in the US when adults are so damn irresponsible around guns. Surely all responsible gun owners are incensed by news like this!

 

[Blef]

I have to disagree. Even if you are defending yourself then your purpose for having a gun is to harm another, to defend your life. Guns are designed and built for that very purpose. I once heard someone (and I can't remember who as it was so long ago) who said "if you own a gun you HAVE to be prepared to use that gun and kill someone if necessary).

I take GREAT exception at you saying it's usually mentally ill people (lumped in with EVIL people, and intoxicated) as statistics from all over the world (some examples below) show that the mentally ill are more at risk of being victims of violence than being perpetrators. Maybe the easy availability of guns is the bigger problem.

http://ontario.cmha.ca/documents/violence-and-mental-health-unpacking-a-complex-issue/

https://news.ncsu.edu/2014/02/wms-desmarais-violence2014/

https://www.sane.org/mental-health-and-illness/facts-and-guides/fvm-mental-illness-and-violence

http://jech.bmj.com/content/70/3/223

And again people are blaming the mentally ill for gun violence. Please read these links and educate yourself.

Someone said a psychologist should "fix" people to stop them committing gun violence and shouldn't comment on gun control. That is absurd. You cannot fix what isn't there. If they are aware of a mental illness, then a psychologist can help someone. If there are no displays of mental illness then what can they do, except try and enforce gun control? Some people on here think it's only the mentally ill who are committing gun crime in the US, based on nothing but ignorance, they would rather point the finger at a mentally ill person than accept the fact that the gun control measures in the US are just not working.

 

[rsd1200]

What can be done about parents like this?

http://kstp.com/news/vadnais-heights-father-son-charged-weapons-seizure/4813544/

The criminal complaint against Christopher Stowe states Ramsey County deputies first responded to a report of the threats on March 1. A complaining witness reportedly said the 13-year-old had "told a classmate that he was going to kill him and that he had a list of students he was going to kill."

The complaint alleges a deputy responded to the school, where officials reportedly told him the 13-year-old had been suspended for the threats. The release states the deputy heard that when the 13-year-old was being removed from class that day, he was alleged to have said, "Hide in the closet when I come back, because I will start shooting then."

........................

The complaint alleges the search turned up a "significant number of firearms, ammunition and firearms parts. Law enforcement officials also located two possible explosive devices."

It also alleges law enforcement recovered several trigger kits hidden in the ceiling of the residence, which the complaint claims appeared "to be conversion kits for converting weapons to automatic weapons." Deputies also reportedly recovered literature on how to convert a semi-automatic weapon into an automatic one.

The complaint alleges law enforcement officials observed several of the firearms were loaded and located out in the open, accessible to children.

According to the criminal complaint against Lisa Stowe filed Monday, multiple pistols inside a dresser drawer in the master bedroom, all with magazines reportedly fully loaded with bullets. And a pistol was allegedly found inside a book on a master bedroom nightstand, fully loaded with magazines containing 9 millimeter bullets.

ATF agents reportedly determined one of the guns met the legal definition of a machine gun and another met the legal definition for a short-barreled shotgun under Minnesota statutes.

Pretty much what happened to them. Take these kid's threats seriously.

Mom said; The release claims the deputy also spoke with Lisa Stowe who is alleged to have said the child "did not have access to weapons and that there were no weapons in the home."

The complaint alleges the search turned up a "significant number of firearms, ammunition and firearms parts. Law enforcement officials also located two possible explosive devices."
It also alleges law enforcement recovered several trigger kits hidden in the ceiling of the residence, which the complaint claims appeared "to be conversion kits for converting weapons to automatic weapons." Deputies also reportedly recovered literature on how to convert a semi-automatic weapon into an automatic one.


The complaint alleges law enforcement officials observed several of the firearms were loaded and located out in the open, accessible to children.

Stowe has been charged with two felony counts of unlawful possession of a machine gun/short-barreled gun and one count of negligent storage of a firearm in the presence of a child, a gross misdemeanor.

The next day, the complaint goes on to state, law enforcement officials executed a search warrant, having arrived at the residence when the 13-year-old was home alone.

They should be charged, fined, and not receive their firearms back. It's time to show that it is unacceptable to not take some sort of precaution with your firearms. IF they get to own anymore, they should have to go through a gun safety program, and show proof of how they'll keep them out of young hands, and possibly even be on probation so the cop can knock, and check their firearm storage. Their son should be in talking to someone, he needs mental health help, yesterday.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

A psychologist pushing for a gun ban. He should stick to being a psychologist & fix them before they become murderers.

What if part of “fixing them” means reducing or controlling easy access to firearm sales/ownership — something outside the control of his office space? Is that irrelevant, then?

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

What can be done about parents like this?

http://kstp.com/news/vadnais-heights-father-son-charged-weapons-seizure/4813544/

The criminal complaint against Christopher Stowe states Ramsey County deputies first responded to a report of the threats on March 1. A complaining witness reportedly said the 13-year-old had "told a classmate that he was going to kill him and that he had a list of students he was going to kill."

The complaint alleges a deputy responded to the school, where officials reportedly told him the 13-year-old had been suspended for the threats. The release states the deputy heard that when the 13-year-old was being removed from class that day, he was alleged to have said, "Hide in the closet when I come back, because I will start shooting then."

........................

The complaint alleges the search turned up a "significant number of firearms, ammunition and firearms parts. Law enforcement officials also located two possible explosive devices."

It also alleges law enforcement recovered several trigger kits hidden in the ceiling of the residence, which the complaint claims appeared "to be conversion kits for converting weapons to automatic weapons." Deputies also reportedly recovered literature on how to convert a semi-automatic weapon into an automatic one.

The complaint alleges law enforcement officials observed several of the firearms were loaded and located out in the open, accessible to children.

According to the criminal complaint against Lisa Stowe filed Monday, multiple pistols inside a dresser drawer in the master bedroom, all with magazines reportedly fully loaded with bullets. And a pistol was allegedly found inside a book on a master bedroom nightstand, fully loaded with magazines containing 9 millimeter bullets.

ATF agents reportedly determined one of the guns met the legal definition of a machine gun and another met the legal definition for a short-barreled shotgun under Minnesota statutes.

Fines, jail, parenting classes, remediation, family counseling, prison.

He owns illegal firearms, which is a felony, for starters. Should ALSO should be held even more accountable since they were loaded, improperly secured and easily accessible to children!

 

[Blef]

http://theconversation.com/if-polls...ontrol-why-doesnt-congress-just-pass-it-92569

Interesting piece on why public opinion doesn't become policy in the US.

 

[Elley Mae]

http://theconversation.com/if-polls...ontrol-why-doesnt-congress-just-pass-it-92569

Interesting piece on why public opinion doesn't become policy in the US.

I don’t view a cnn poll as “public opinion”.

 

[rsd1200]

I've been looking at the shooting that I believe, still plays a role, in today's shootings. Columbine.

Police were on that scene, within five minutes. The deputy assigned to work at the school actually exchanged gunfire EH, who then went inside the school. Soon, six other LEOs arrived and took positions around the building. None of them entered the building, where the shooters were headed to the library, shooting, and tossing bombs into the cafeteria as they went. There were seven LEO vehicles onsite within minutes, and no one went inside. They said they wanted to wait for additional backup. One kid who escaped, said there was at least 20 officers there, who said they couldn't go inside w/o orders. By the time a SWAT team arrived, the shooting had gone on for :47 minutes. The first officers had only been in the building, two minutes, when E & D committed suicide.

D & E bought the TEC-DC9 semiautomatic pistol from their employer. The others came fro DH prom date, who he convinced to purchase them, as she was of legal age (18).

I think that Columbine still, to this day, is a motivator, in part, for some of these kids who feel the way they feel. Angry, ostracized, and mad at those who seem to enjoy life, and they aren't./can't.

This 60 Minutes Video is interesting. :41 minute mark is about the plan, that failed. It's a bit similar to the Parkdale shooting. (There is some footage of the school with the shooters inside to those who may not want to view that)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N43k2hKCFiU