Gun Control Debate #4

[rosemadderlake]

https://www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/555101/



(The Atlantic is considered to have a left centre bias with high factual reporting
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-atlantic/ )

*

Good article. From your link:


Anyone who claims that the text of the amendment is “plain” has a heavy burden to carry. The burden is even heavier if an advocate argues that the Second Amendment was understood to upend laws against concealed carry or dangerous weapons—both of which were in force in many parts of the country long after it was adopted.

So it may be that the amendment’s text supports something like where we are now: Dick Heller, a law-abiding citizen, can own a handgun in his home for self-protection. The text and context, however, don’t point us to an unlimited individual right to bear any kind and number of weapons by anyone, whether a minor or a felon or domestic abuser. That would be a right that, if recognized by the courts, has the potential to disrupt our society at a profound level; a right that, as Fallows’s correspondent blithely asserts, renders the damage of gun violence “utterly irrelevant.”

---
Bbm: where we are today...

 

[Elley Mae]

About this site:

https://thinkprogress.org/debunking-john-lott-5456e83cf326/

ThinkProgress is an American news website. It is a project of the Center for American Progress Action Fund (CAP Action), a progressive public policy research and advocacy organization.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ThinkProgress

The president and chief executive officer of CAP is Neera Tanden, who worked for the Obama and Clinton administrations and for Hillary Clinton's campaigns.[4] The first president and CEO was John Podesta, who has served as White House Chief of Staff to U.S.


Bias?

 

[flourish]

ThinkProgress is an American news website. It is a project of the Center for American Progress Action Fund (CAP Action), a progressive public policy research and advocacy organization.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ThinkProgress

The president and chief executive officer of CAP is Neera Tanden, who worked for the Obama and Clinton administrations and for Hillary Clinton's campaigns.[4] The first president and CEO was John Podesta, who has served as White House Chief of Staff to U.S.


Bias?

They doesn't cancel out the bias of the original link

 

[rsd1200]

Agree. Apples =/= oranges.

Autos are also insured, many with liability, and use includes training/certification, licensing, and there are laws against using a car recklessly, while drunk, etc.

Is it illegal to carry or use a firearm while intoxicated? Serious question.

Another of my pet peeves, and I know it's O/T, but alcohol has destroyed so many lives and seems to gets a pass ((I drink occasionally, I admit that, but not to excess.) No, alcohol and firearms do not belong together. Neither do alcohol and driving.

A drink with dinner out, or a couple at home, is one thing; A drunk person, driving up in their vehicle, and pulling a firearm out of the front of their pants, and waving it around, are three things, that I doubt that anyone wants to see!


EuTu, I think you and I share an affection for HST, he's from my state, as you probably know.. We have a festival, in his honor. I hope to attend this year. However, he was an enigma. How he survived, with his lifestyle, as long as he did, mystifies me.

Love your new avatar, btw.

 

[rsd1200]

And what about my liberty of NOT having guns? I pay my taxes, I recycle, I'm a general good citizen, but I VISCERALLY HATE GUNS. Who are you to force me to do something that is against my convictions, and possibly against my religion?

I just looked it up, I lived, 8 miles from Kennesaw.'s town center. Where I lived, a lot of folks just packed. It was normal. I'd not seen that in Kentucky, at that time. However, the law was not enforced. You didn't have to go to anyone and say, "I don't want to carry or, I don't want to own a firearm" or put a sign in your yard that you owned a firearm, or didn't. It's like it is here, today, no one knew who had a firearm, in their home, unless you told them you did, or didn't. Where I lived, in GA, 8 miles away, I'd guess that 90% of folks did, and that's w/o folks telling me.

Authorities in a Georgia town with a law requiring residents to own guns said the 1982 law was never meant as an enforceable measure.

WUSA-TV, Washington, which said it found support for the law from all residents it spoke to in Kennesaw, quoted police as saying the 1982 law requiring gun and ammunition ownership was a symbolic gesture responding to a 1981 gun ban in Morton Grove, Ill., which was later declared unconstitutional.

"It was not meant to be an enforceable law. The police department has never searched homes to make sure you had a gun. It was meant more or less as a political statement to support citizens' second amendment rights to own firearms," Kennesaw police Lt. Craig Graydon said.


"We don't have shoot-outs. It's not a Wild West," Graydon said.


City officials said the crime rate dropped 29 percent after the law was passed in 1982 and has remained low, with just four gun-related homicides in the past 30 years.

https://www.upi.com/City-has-required-gun-ownership-since-1982/88391361908407/

 

[rsd1200]

I hate the saying "Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem" because it's dismissive and for many people a mental illness is not a temporary problem, but the truth is for many people a suicide attempt is a one-time thing, and once they get past it they move on and don't ever make another attempt. IMO firearms suicides are as much of an issue as school shootings. However I realize the solutions are not the same for both. It's not like there's a one-size-fits-all gun control law that will address school shootings, mass shootings, suicides, and armed toddlers. But guns everywhere all the time for everyone isn't fixing any of those.


https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...h-highlights-role-of-guns-in-suicide/1927815/

I had a good friend who used the phrase. I think she used it more to encourage herself. That's the reason that I say it, however I normally put the term "usually" in front of "temporary problem", because I know that problems aren't always temporary, and some prayers never reach the sky. I don't like to ask for help, but I came to realize that sometimes, we need to do so.

 

[bluesneakers]

https://crimeresearch.org/2017/02/f...during-obamas-entire-presidency-508-to-424-2/

Pick a different year or compare the last 10 years between the two countries and see what happens to the numbers. That will give you a more realistic picture. It's like 2011 - the year Norway's number skyrocketed because of the massacre at Utøya. It was not a typical year and most of the deaths were from one horrific incident. Like France in 2015.

Imagine if people compared terrorist attacks, France to USA, and cherry-picked 2001 as the year.

 

[PrairieWind]

http://issues2016.web.unc.edu/2016/10/199/

I found this link a while ago and thought I would post it here for discussion. I seem to find some widely varying stats on suicide, but this one (supposedly from official stats) shows Canada with nearly the same rate of suicide as the US. I think the date is a little old however.

Since suicide has been discussed a lot here lately, I spent some time thinking about the people I have known that committed suicide and how they did it. First of all, I was shocked and saddened to realize the number of people I have known that did kill themselves. And some of them were people that you would never ever think would do it. Anyway, the means of suicide surprised me some. Oddly, I could only think of one that used a handgun, and that was a woman, which is very odd. The men I knew that killed themselves with a firearm all used shotguns. I am not sure why that is. There were a couple of intentional drug overdoses, hanging, one guy who laid down on the railroad tracks, and several carbon monoxide (3 of these and they ran their cars in the garage while they sat in the car). One of the CO deaths was my next door neighbor going thru a divorce. But one thing did stand out to me, especially in those that I never would have thought would kill themselves. Many of these people were very intoxicated at the time they killed themselves.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

A great podcast in general, and specifically this one on gun rights.

NPR’s Radiolab presents “More Perfect,” a podcast series examining Supreme Court decisions.

This one’s called The Gun Show.

“For nearly 200 years of our nation’s history, the Second Amendment was an all-but-forgotten rule about the importance of militias. But in the 1960s and 70s, a movement emerged —*led by Black Panthers and a recently-repositioned NRA —*that insisted owning a firearm was the right of each and every American. So began a constitutional debate that only the Supreme Court could solve. That didn’t happen until 2008, when a Washington, D.C. security guard named Dick Heller made a compelling case.”

https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/radiolab-presents-more-perfect/id1117202653?mt=2&i=1000393447299

Here are streamable links for this, for folks that can’t stream the podcast or don’t have iTunes.

https://www.wnycstudios.org/story/gun-show/

http://167.88.154.163/moreperfect/m...5a9db641969c4704_331841_2pglhEJu__00000003rHv

 

[rsd1200]

Pick a different year or compare the last 10 years between the two countries and see what happens to the numbers. That will give you a more realistic picture. It's like 2011 - the year Norway's number skyrocketed because of the massacre at Utøya. It was not a typical year and most of the deaths were from one horrific incident. Like France in 2015.

Imagine if people compared terrorist attacks, France to USA, and cherry-picked 2001 as the year.

Timeline of Terrorist Attacks in France
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33288542

Notable Terrorist Attacks on U.S. soil
https://www.cnn.com/2013/04/18/us/u-s-terrorist-attacks-fast-facts/index.html

 

[Bernina]

[h=1]A Backgrounder On Background Checks[/h]
https://www.npr.org/2018/03/08/591549278/a-backgrounder-on-background-checks

https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/federal_denials.pdf/view

[h=1]Federal Denials[/h]
An extensive compilation of the various reasons why the NICS Section has denied firearms permits, encompassing November 30, 1998 to February 28, 2018.

 

[bluesneakers]

Timeline of Terrorist Attacks in France
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33288542

Notable Terrorist Attacks on U.S. soil
https://www.cnn.com/2013/04/18/us/u-s-terrorist-attacks-fast-facts/index.html

(From 2013)
American deaths in terrorism vs. gun violence in one graph



List of countries by firearm-related death rate

France 2012: 2.83 per 100k
USA 2014: 10.5 per 100k

Visualizing gun deaths: Comparing the U.S. to rest of the world

In a 2013 article for The Atlantic online that compared gun deaths in U.S. cities to some of the deadliest places in the world, the authors created a map,

http://26t4l93f9dhe439yxm286lpv.wpe...ntent/uploads/2014/03/AtlanticGunViolence.jpg

Being killed by a gun in France is as likely as dying of hypothermia in the USA:
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/14/...ath-rates-the-us-is-in-a-different-world.html

 

[rsd1200]

(From 2013)
American deaths in terrorism vs. gun violence in one graph

List of countries by firearm-related death rate

France 2012: 2.83 per 100k
USA 2014: 10.5 per 100k

Visualizing gun deaths: Comparing the U.S. to rest of the world

http://26t4l93f9dhe439yxm286lpv.wpe...ntent/uploads/2014/03/AtlanticGunViolence.jpg

Being killed by a gun in France is as likely as dying of hypothermia in the USA:
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/14/...ath-rates-the-us-is-in-a-different-world.html

You only asked for a comparable time frame of terrorist acts.

France has a higher travel warning, as I showed, earlier, with Canada's Travel Warnings to France, and the U.S. (actually the U.S. didn't have a warning), that also says something to me. 10 years ago, I allowed my child to travel overseas in that region. Today, she would not be permitted.

ETA: Showing a graph with states, the same population of countries, says nothing. We have states, inside our country. Not countries, inside of giant swath of land. Everyone like to toss out Australia all the time too. Yes they are close in size, but they have only around 25 million people... Imagine if the U.S had only 25 million people? That would be like scattering the entire population of Texas, across the entire United States.

 

[bluesneakers]

You only asked for a comparable time frame of terrorist acts.

France has a higher travel warning, as I showed, earlier, with Canada's Travel Warnings to France, and the U.S. (actually the U.S. didn't have a warning), that also says something to me. 10 years ago, I allowed my child to travel overseas in that region. Today, she would not be permitted.

No, I didn't. I offered some perspective on how to interpret the statistics. It's easy to look at one specific year if you're looking for particular results, which is why I mentioned Norway and the USA as examples. Looking at only those two years (2001 in USA and 2011 in Norway) it makes it look like the two countries are far more dangerous than they are in reality.

Imagine if everyone thought 3,000 deaths in the USA from terrorist attacks was a typical number. Nearly every country on the planet seems safer in comparison.

 

[rsd1200]

No, I didn't. I offered some perspective on how to interpret the statistics. It's easy to look at one specific year if you're looking for particular results, which is why I mentioned Norway and the USA as examples. Looking at only those two years (2001 in USA and 2011 in Norway) it makes it look like the two countries are far more dangerous than they are in reality.

Imagine if everyone thought 3,000 deaths in the USA from terrorist attacks was a typical number. Nearly every country on the planet seems safer in comparison.

I didn't give one specific year. I compared two countries throughout many years.

 

[bluesneakers]

I didn't give one specific year. I compared two countries throughout many years.

I didn't say you did. You didn't post the original link about France in 2015. That year was an anomaly in France and IMO it's disingenuous to use 2015 as the year to compare mass shootings the way it was used in the article. So I gave other numbers to paint a clearer picture of annual gun deaths in the USA vs annual gun deaths in other countries.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Thanks for the link, Prairie. As you said in your post, the data in that link is 11-18 years old, so I dug around a bit.

Looks like the most recent, consistent gun/homicide/suicide data is from 2015, so I went with that!

Jumping off your post!

:read:

Overall population

323.1 million: America (2016)
36.29 million: Canada (2016)​

Homicides, U.S. vs Canada

2015 homicides (all methods, per 100,000 people)​

4.9: United States
1.68: Canada​

2015 Canada homicides (excludes suicide, self-defense)​

604: homicide victims
178: were firearm-related
98: gang-related homicides (all methods)
​

2015 United States homicides​

36,252: fatal firearm incidents (including suicide)​

22,018: completed suicide by firearm
17,793: homicide victims (all methods)
12,979: assault homicide “by discharge of firearm”
489: unintentional firearm deaths (accidental)
282: undetermined cause of firearm death
484: legal intervention/war​

(Source: Full U.S. report from the CDC – downloadable pdf)​

Data & other info:

Suicide rates, Canada vs. United States, 2015​

• 2015 data from World Health Organization (WHO) shows the U.S. suicide rate at 12.6, and Canada’s at 10.4.​

Suicide rates, United States: longterm trends, per Statista:
​

• In the U.S., from 1950-2015, the average suicide rate is about 13.2 per 100,000 residents.​

• “The state of Wyoming had the highest rate of suicide in the U.S.” in 2015 with 28.2 suicides per 100,000 residents. (Alaska: 26.8, and Montana: 25.3)
• In 2015 (most recent data available), “there were 21.1 male and 6 female deaths by suicide per 100,000 resident population in the United States.”​

Longterm suicide rates, Canada, per Statistia:
​

• From 2000 to 2015, “the age-standardized death rates in Canada for intentional self-harm (suicide) is around 12.3 out of 100,000 people. In 2000, the rate was 11.7.”


​

http://issues2016.web.unc.edu/2016/10/199/

I found this link a while ago and thought I would post it here for discussion. I seem to find some widely varying stats on suicide, but this one (supposedly from official stats) shows Canada with nearly the same rate of suicide as the US. I think the date is a little old however.

Since suicide has been discussed a lot here lately, I spent some time thinking about the people I have known that committed suicide and how they did it. First of all, I was shocked and saddened to realize the number of people I have known that did kill themselves. And some of them were people that you would never ever think would do it. Anyway, the means of suicide surprised me some. Oddly, I could only think of one that used a handgun, and that was a woman, which is very odd. The men I knew that killed themselves with a firearm all used shotguns. I am not sure why that is. There were a couple of intentional drug overdoses, hanging, one guy who laid down on the railroad tracks, and several carbon monoxide (3 of these and they ran their cars in the garage while they sat in the car). One of the CO deaths was my next door neighbor going thru a divorce. But one thing did stand out to me, especially in those that I never would have thought would kill themselves. Many of these people were very intoxicated at the time they killed themselves.

 

[bluesneakers]

You only asked for a comparable time frame of terrorist acts.

France has a higher travel warning, as I showed, earlier, with Canada's Travel Warnings to France, and the U.S. (actually the U.S. didn't have a warning), that also says something to me. 10 years ago, I allowed my child to travel overseas in that region. Today, she would not be permitted.

ETA: Showing a graph with states, the same population of countries, says nothing. We have states, inside our country. Not countries, inside of giant swath of land. Everyone like to toss out Australia all the time too. Yes they are close in size, but they have only around 25 million people... Imagine if the U.S had only 25 million people? That would be like scattering the entire population of Texas, across the entire United States.

So the gun deaths numbers in those cities mean nothing? It shows how many people are dead thanks to firearms. Living in Detroit has the same risks as living in El Salvador. That's stunning. I don't think people realize how bad it is. I didn't make the map - but it's a good tool to visualize the number of deaths.

You can read the article here:
Gun Violence in U.S. Cities Compared to the Deadliest Nations in the World

While the United States has the highest level of gun ownership per capita in the world, its rate of gun homicides, about three per 100,000 people, is far lower than that of Honduras, the country with the world's highest gun homicide rate (roughly 68 gun murders per 100,000 people). But America's homicide rate varies significantly by city and metro area.

 

[Bernina]

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo...3010/florida-gov-rick-scott-signs-gun-package

[h=1]Florida Gov. Rick Scott Signs Gun Package[/h]

Among other things, the legislation raises the legal age for gun purchases to 21, institutes a waiting period of three days, and allows for the arming of school personnel who are not full-time teachers.

 

[rsd1200]

So the gun deaths numbers in those cities mean nothing? It shows how many people are dead thanks to firearms. Living in Detroit has the same risks as living in El Salvador. That's stunning. I don't think people realize how bad it is. I didn't make the map - but it's a good tool to visualize the number of deaths.

You can read the article here:
Gun Violence in U.S. Cities Compared to the Deadliest Nations in the World

I know how many gun deaths there are but there is no way to equally compare. Just as the oft Australia comparison is made, is apples and oranges. Take 300 million folks out of the u.s. and I bet firearm death rates would go down drastically. The last time someone killed someone where I live, it was a cop, who had to kill a guy from out of town. He fired on them.

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