ID - 4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered - Bryan Kohberger Arrested - Moscow # 65

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  • #381
I actually hadn't thought of this! Definitely possible. IMO, since the PCA explicitly mentions that phone not connecting to towers in Moscow after Nov. 14th, they might also have mentioned that the number or account was disconnected if that ends up being true? Maybe? IMO.

And regarding not turning the phone off -- another interesting thing, at least to me, about BK's decisions regarding his phone is in fact the decision to take it with him and turn it off. Of course, he could have left it at home -- that would have been smarter -- but by turning his phone off, he was not part of the collection of phones using cellular data in the area during the murder. The PCA mentions that LE checked this, and had they not zeroed in on BK through other means (his vehicle, DNA), his turned off phone could have actually worked in his favor. ALL IMO, and I doubt I am articulating this very well. From the PCA:

View attachment 395596

To clarify, the PCA immediately follows up this statement with an explanation of why BK's phone might have been turned off and the additional evidence that traces his movements the night of the murders.
It's just the most boneheaded move of all - bringing the phone then turning it off and on! It's almost more suspicious than bringing it and leaving it on - it shows consciousness that what he was about to do was wrong and helps establish premeditation. IMO
 
  • #382
In the college town I live in (25 thousand students)
Almost all leases begin either June 1 or August 1
Rare to see any other dates unless it’s a sublease
He certainly could have signed a June 1 lease start and not moved in immediately
Since this was WSU owned apartments they may be more flexible
Just a side note. My son is enrolled in RIT and during the ‘Covid Era’ the college actually purchased some hotels to provide more spacing off campus.

The move in dates and times were also rearranged. I’m not sure if all the different move in dates are still different as of right now.

My opinion only, but possibly many colleges around the country changed move in dates etc.
But then again I guess BK was in a different type of housing so it may be totally irrelevant.
 
  • #383
IMO, did he keep his PA phone number when he moved to WA? Did he get the new number in WA? Actually, this is important. Did BK have PA phone number or WA phone number?
All I can ascertain from the PCA is that when he opened the account in June it was that number and on 23 December LE gained access to his pings current and historical and put a track/trace Pen /record on that number. All the Pings mentioned in the PCA are related to that number, and LE link BK through pings and camera video on afternoon of Nov 13th. ie He is the one in possession of the phone at that time. Ref: PCA
 
  • #384
According to the PCA he had the same phone number from June 2022 up until his arrest on December 31 2022? And LE put a Pen report/track and trace on the number as soon as warrant came through (December 23rd from memory).

ps://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/23564673/122922-affidavit-exhibit-a-statement-of-brett-payne_redacted.pdf
Oh ok thanks, I missed that!
 
  • #385
We have yet to hear from any medical examiner, sadly.

We have had different estimates and revisions from the Coroner, who did not attend at the autopsies, IMO.

The autopsies were redacted from the PCA, IMO.

I am aware of that and offered no speculation, only a response to an individual suggestion that someone may misinform families on how quickly their loved ones died in order to make them the families feel better in some way.
 
  • #386
There is no consumer log but there could still be a forensic trail. The Fbi has computer forensics specialists. Like how they recreate data purely from old memory that hasn't been overwritten yet.
But a router is not a computer. My 4 year old computer has a 2TB hard drive. That's 2 million MB of storage. An old DVD can store 4,700 MB of data.

The average router has just 16 MB of storage, and much of that is already tied up. There just is no place to store all this theoretical data for the FBI to theoretically retrieve.
 
  • #387
Not necessarily. The Albertsons trip was after the murders. I’m confident they know by now what he purchased. That info is icing on the cake for a trial if needed. Wasn’t needed for pca. Moo
For sure, in PCA they say "unknown items" but I agree, LE know by now what he purchased on afternoon of Nov 13th. MOO
 
  • #388
As it appears BK was watching the house and perhaps one or more of the residents, I’d be interested in knowing whether he was watching the Food Truck Twitch feed on the Saturday night.

Is there any evidence that someone bought food for the girls that night?
IMO, on the Grub Truck audio feed, KG does eventually pay for her meal and you can hear the transaction being completed on the feed.
 
  • #389
I have said this before in various forms, but in light of the ongoing discussion of BK's mental condition I feel it bears repeating.

I am skeptical of the proposition that BK was "mentally ill", and assuming he is, that this would explain his actions and be somehow relevant to his defense.

If you examine the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5-TR), you'll find yourself and most if not all your friends there. The DSM is designed to help trained and experienced professionals diagnose and treat their patients, not to help armchair psychologists to speculate about the possibility that a thrill/spree/mass murder suspect has a diagnosable mental disorder. When we do that, we are indulging in conduct that professionals (like Dr. Ramsland, who hasn't made any public comment) would consider unethical.

Further, assuming for the sake of argument that BK suffers from a mental disorder, no one has offered an explanation why he acted so differently from the millions of others who suffer the same disorder. Mental illness is, IMO, a rabbit hole that offers neither explanation nor comfort to those who seek to understand this event.

We like to believe we are mentally healthy and therefore would never stalk and kill four strangers as BK has been charged with doing. We seek gain some psychological distance from the accused in this way. IMO, it's a form of whistling in the dark.

It's scary to contemplate the possibility that evil is in each of us, and that we might actually be capable of killing our fellow humans. But maybe we should. It might cause us to give more attention to the importance of the fundamental personal, community, and societal guardrails that keep most of us from choosing to descend into evil in response to the personal suffering everyone encounters in life.

Even assuming that BK suffers some mental condition, IMO it is incumbent on a community committed to justice in this case to assess whether it is relevant to the charges he faces. Here's what Idaho law says about this:

"Idaho Statutes Section 18-207. MENTAL CONDITION NOT A DEFENSE — PROVISION FOR TREATMENT DURING INCARCERATION — RECEPTION OF EVIDENCE — NOTICE AND APPOINTMENT OF EXPERT EXAMINERS.

(1) Mental condition shall not be a defense to any charge of criminal conduct.
...
(3) Nothing herein is intended to prevent the admission of expert evidence on the issue of any state of mind which is an element of the offense, subject to the rules of evidence.

..."

So, I invite those who are inclined to dwell upon BK's mental condition to tell us what relevance this discussion has to BK's guilt or innocence in the deaths of the University of Idaho students.

I feel compelled to respond. And I will say I completely disagree about amateur use of DSM. Let me preface this by saying that I have done field diagnostics for research that supports DSM. At the beginning of my psychiatric research, I thought the same ("Everyone is in DSM.")

But spend one day in a major psychiatric clinic OR in an inpatient unit and you'll see that it's not true. The public uses phrases from DSM all the time, as descriptors.

That's not the design of DSM nor should we be using it that way,

At any rate, BK's diagnosis (VSS) is a neurological disorder, which causes perceptual disturbance. The term "mentally ill" has little meaning, but in general, most psychiatrists will tell you they treat "mental illness" and that neurologists treat VSS and similar syndromes.

Can someone have both psychiatric symptoms AND a neurological disorder? Yes.

ANYWAY, last night I realized that I"m not interested in diagnosing BK, per se. So I resoundingly agree with you. I want to eliminate the neurological (and the upbringing part, if any) in order to contemplate just what it is that makes some into a mass murderer/wannabe serial killer.

And while we cannot and have not ruled out characterological disorders (personality disorders), that group of descriptors gets us closer to the problem of evil. Modern psychiatric and psychology are in big debates about the problem of evil - just as we are, here.

For me, what's left over when we rule out neurological and mental health disorders (if any) is the problem of what causes a BK. I've added in "life stressors" to my own personal rubric because mentally fragile people do behave in reactive ways sometimes, if they are pushed past their limits (which by definitions are not the same as for the rest of us).

I'm fine with "Evil" being the category to which we assign this small segment of horrible monsters. Does someone set out to be Evil? Does it just befall them? Is there some demon or spiritual entity that imposes itself on them (as implied by folk literature on Evil)?

We're left with this mysterious force or thing called Evil. But what is it?? Is it just a residual category of the rest?

Naturally, we are left pondering our fellow humans, but I do not believe that each person is capable of the evil that BK inflicted. Not at all. There are predisposing conditions and some of us (many of us) are incapable of doing what he did. I reject entirely the idea that *anyone* could suddenly become a BK (and by so doing, I also reject nihilism - because if true, if we can ALL be as Evil, then all hope is lost and everything is meaningless - just as BK claimed as a teenager) That make us all just "sacks of meat" capable of anything, without souls or anchors or inner meaning. Which is how he felt.

I have never felt that way. And when I'm dead, I hope someone points out that not only did I never plan or contemplate killing or violently attacking anyone, not in this lifetime. I've got a few years to go - but pretty sure I'm going to get through the rest of my life without becoming a mass murderer.

Most people do. We should be marveling at how most of us are NOT evil. I fear that young people may actually buy into this idea, which is so depressing (that we are all equally capable of Evil). I should also add that these are moral and spiritual questions, so everyone is entitled to their view.

But, I totally agree with you that the Mental Health Model (or the Physical Health Model) do not adequately explain BK and that he is a candidate to be called Evil. I might not have agreed 30 years ago, but I do now.

Anyway, the intent of this post is to cheer you up, because occasionally I go to the same place as you have. But I'm convinced that most of us are not capable of this degree of Evil - I just don't know why BK has been capable. Mental health issues/neuro issues do NOT explain it. I just need to pare it down to what remains.

Where does Evil reside?
 
  • #390
I recently saw an Ashley Banfield interview with SG wherein he said he asked and was assured nothing could have been done for the deceased even if 911 had been called right away. She was trying to get him to say he was upset by the delay in notifying LE and he wasn't biting.

This isn't proof all four were dead before the intruder departed. For all I know, it was something somebody made up in an attempt to ease the mind of a grieving father, or to deflect potential criticism of the surviving witness.

But that's what SG said on the matter. I wouldn't think somebody in the investigation would actually assume a victim couldn't be saved unless s/he was already dead.
With a knife that size and stab wounds to the chest, I would think they died very quickly.
 
  • #391
Not necessarily. The Albertsons trip was after the murders. I’m confident they know by now what he purchased. That info is icing on the cake for a trial if needed. Wasn’t needed for pca. Moo
Obviously I was being a bit sarcastic. Albertsons doesn't sell KA-BARs. As far as how relevant the purchase(s) will be to the case, time will tell. :)
 
  • #392
maybe he was on their social media while they were posting to it...do we know if he ever posted to their SM? And curious if the 12 visits correspond to anything- Fri nights? something KG or MM posted? any pattern?
He's known for quoting unreliable sources from time to time. It wouldn't have come from Kaylee, but from something that he saw on TV or something he read online or on twitter about the case. It has happened.
 
  • #393
@10ofRods and @Mad Hettie :

re triangulation via cell towers:

My area has only two towers and they are from differing companies.

When the triangulation you are referring to occurs, is it only using whichever company's tower you have service for, or is it any functioning tower nearby?

Our towers are Verizon and US Cellular.

I guess they can't triangulate with only two towers, but by drawing range radius circles around each tower that pings (like they did with KK's drive in the Frazee case, IIRC), they can narrow the phone's location down to two possible locations.

ETA: because I think the ping can also tell HOW FAR from the tower the phone was when it pinged? Otherwise my radius circle idea is defunct.
Yes a single tower will give the data of how far the cell was from the tower when it pinged. The single tower will show the distance in a 30 degree arc of the direction the ping came from.
It’s called a time band.
When there are two towers the intersection of the towers two arcs (time bands) for the cell plot a location that is very accurate.
 
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  • #394
  • #395
Exactly - he had to come across the house or its occupants somehow (assuming it's true that it was targeted).

Now that the novelty of the arrest has worn off, I'm getting back to where I was before - just how much of a mystery this case is. MOO

Me too. And of course, many of us are asking: WHY?

I see generational markers (of a sort) for this (as compared, say to Ted Bundy). What makes a Kohberger (assuming he's done what many of us believe he's done)? What makes a Bundy? What makes a Joe DeAngelo?

Lots of people had awful childhoods (killed no one). Some people have VSS (killed no one). Some people are schizophrenic (killed no one).

Lots of people have life stress (kill no one).

And when people do kill others who are close to them, we can kind of understand that familial stress added up and one person broke.

Why does someone go find and kill four innocent people they don't know?

Total mystery still.
 
  • #396
Oh ok thanks, I missed that!
No worries, It is possible he ditched the phone I guess (after Nov 14th). From memory (so could definately be wrong! not checking right now) the PCA doesn't mention anymore about pings and so forth between that date and his imminent arrest (other than there are no pings in Moscow area after November 14). I just kinda think, it's unlikely, the reason is relevance to establishing probable cause. But see your point and it's a good one IMO.
 
  • #397
I got the impression the location that subscribed the phone number to him was from an Albrightsville, PA address...meaning the location (store) where he got the phone. I might be reading that incorrectly?

ETA: I just looked up to see if there was an AT&T store in Albrightsville, PA, and it does not appear there is. There is, however, one in Pullman, WA. So, @Sundog, I think you are right. He could have gotten the phone anywhere, including Pullman, and likely not Albrightsville, PA. I guess we don't know when he got to WA after all!
IMO, there is an ATT store in Stroudsville, PA close to Albrightsville. 20-30 minute drive away.
 
  • #398
According to the PCA he had the same phone number from June 2022 up until his arrest on December 31 2022? And LE put a Pen report/track and trace on the number as soon as warrant came through (December 23rd from memory).

ps://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/23564673/122922-affidavit-exhibit-a-statement-of-brett-payne_redacted.pdf
For certain? They tracked the number to the “present.” But it doesn’t say they did observe him pinging anywhere. Maybe where he pinged subsequently just wasn’t revealing for PCA info purposes. They omit any reference to post Nov 14, as far as I can tell.

(BTW, I’m not suggesting that he did ditch his murder-night phone and number, but perhaps it’s a possibility, which would be interesting.)

And I have no idea what a Pen report is.
 
  • #399
I don’t think he would have stood out as a customer at the grocery store IMO.
If they know the exact time that he checked out at Albertson's, they can match the register tape to the time and see exactly what he bought, even if he paid with cash.
 
  • #400
I just checked my modem log, and you know what? It does show packets being sent out all day long to devices that are not mine. Kind of makes sense if someone has their wi-fi turned on and passes close enough. Unknown device sends out "any connections here?" And the router says "I'm here." and sends it to the modem. I've got no actual connections to anything other than my own devices (and my log tells me how long each was connected). But that wasn't my wi-fi router log it was my MODEM log logging what the wi-fi router sent it. Who knew?

I haven't checked to see if any devices that are not mine shows up multiple times yet. (We have a lot of walkers in our neighborhood)


My point is that if SG has access to a log that is similar at the King street house, it might show something similar, trackable by device on the cell ping dates. If he tells the world about it, I don't think LE can stop him without a gag order on him?

 Once again, my modem, my experience. The rest is MOO.
Right. If he/Kaylee or even Maddy etc. owned the modem, then it's entirely possible. If the landlord owned the modem, then likely not. However, it's not unusual to "bring your own modem". However, it's not unusual for the landlord to supply the wifi as part of the rent.
 
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