ID - 4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered - Bryan Kohberger Arrested - Moscow # 71

[MyBelle]

"Officials in Pennsylvania have investigated a possible link between cold cases in the state and Bryan Kohberger, the suspect arrested in the University of Idaho student killings in Moscow, Idaho."

Bryan Kohberger investigated for possible connection to c...

Kohberger, 28, was arrested on December 30 in Pennsylvania and charged with four counts of first-degree murder in Idaho.

www.newsweek.com

Thanks. I hope they are also looking at murders in adjacent states to where he lived.

 

[schooling]

BBM ^^ I totally agree with you, TeaTime. I think the case will not go to trial but will instead be heard by a Grand Jury. MOO

Grand juries are only traditionally sat/seated/whatever to determine if someone should be indicted and face charges or to elicit cooperation from uncooperative witnesses. It's powers are broader...but they don't extend into the court system.

We are mostly past the charges phase.

So I'm assuming you mean trial by judge?

 

[sleuth_truths]

BK's alleged sexist attitude towards women should make for an interesting dynamic between him and his female attorney.

 

[10ofRods]

BBM

Do you have a source for the bolded bit or is it speculation?

AFAIK, PPD has remained silent on the outcome(s) of both his interview in April & the fall application.

TIA & MOO

Not the person to whom you responded, but I have it handy if still needed:

Idaho murders: Bryan Kohberger applied for internship at Pullman Police Department in fall 2022

Brian Kohberger, the criminology Ph.D. student accused of stabbing four University of Idaho students to death in November, applied for an internship in the fall with the local police department in Pullman, Washington, according to a newly released probable cause affidavit.

www.q13fox.com

Could this simply mean that the defense will focus solely on dismantling the State's case, showing why the evidence the State has is circumstantial and could point in numerous directions? Does the defense need to offer any new evidence if they are only going to attack the State's evidence?

I don't actually know and would love to hear from any criminal law experts or attorneys on here...

It does mean that. That's all it can mean, that I can think of. IMO.

Now, since this is about discovery and not witnesses, it's possible they could call a witness (I suppose - no sure about Idado legal procedure). But the documentation of any discussions with the witness should be produced in discovery as evidence.

If all the Defense can do is attack State's evidence, that's a weak position - but it has been known to work with juries. I don't think it will work with a judge - as he will want to send each of those attacks to a jury - the trier of fact.

As trier of fact, the jury will be told to look at the evidence. Surely the defense will have...some evidence? by then?

 

[ktm44]

BK's alleged sexist attitude towards women should make for an interesting dynamic between him and his female attorney.

I have a feeling that he just might come to learn that a strong, capable woman might be the right man for the task at hand.

 

[agilbe]

BK's alleged sexist attitude towards women should make for an interesting dynamic between him and his female attorney.

You got that right. Add to that the face that he feels like he knows it all. It could get real interesting. JMO

 

[10ofRods]

BBM ^^ I totally agree with you, TeaTime. I think the case will not go to trial but will instead be heard by a Grand Jury. MOO

Not possible at this point.

IME and IMO.

 

[10ofRods]

Douglas is very quotable, but he loves a generalisation.

Take Kemper, a serial killer who he interviewed at length, who when he was 'done' went on the run, expecting an enormous manhunt to be chasing him. They weren't. He phoned police and confessed, to get it over with. They thought he was making it up, and told him to call back later. He called AGAIN and asked to speak directly to a cop he knew, and finally got traction. He confessed not only to the murder of his mother, but to multiple other killings, without being pressured.

Take List, a mass murderer who planned everything down to the minute, even stopping the newspaper delivery, and as a result, wasn't caught for almost two decades, and probably would never have been if it wasn't for a reconstruction by Bender and a massive media push on America's Most Wanted.

I could go on.

That said, I agree with you and think BK, if the perpetrator of this crime, didn't want or expect to get caught. I think he thought he was too smart.

MOO

Or Gary Gilmore, who purposefully committed two murders in Utah in order to GET the death penalty - but he was picky.

He only wanted death penalty by firing squad.

Utah obliged him.

MOO.

 

[NCWatcher]

That's exactly what I was saying. The only link shared here about this incident uses words of a student who is remembering after the fact. I think we're agreeing?

I think we agree that a student's memory of such an event would not normally include the exact words of the professor.

The professor has made his name known, which is something. But of course, his account would be unreliable as well (although if he had some kind of regular script or procedure - or had done something like this before, it would be interesting to know). I know I would not grant an interview.

All we know is that there was an event in the classroom which was interpreted by some as a kind of conflict. The reason I consider the student's viewpoint *more* questionable is that, out of 150, only one has spoken. And that person spoke after the arrest. And I already know (IME) that students do not generally remember exact wording some months after an event.

I wish they did.

I agree that student has been most vocal. Here's an article from the student newspaper that mentions another student's take on the event.

‘I just felt so sick and disgusted:’ Students learn they knew murder suspect Bryan Kohberger

The arrest of former WSU graduate student Bryan Kohberger shocked the Cougar community as some students realized they interacted with him over the past semester. Kohberger was a TA for at least two WSU classes: Criminal Justice 101 and Criminal Law (Criminal Justice 320), according to students...

dailyevergreen.com

"Famularo talked about a time last semester, around late October 2022, when the class and even the professor felt Kohberger had graded them too harshly on an exam."

“[The professor] brought Bryan before the class and let us tell him we were disappointed and ask him questions about it,” they said. “That was probably the most interaction any of us had with him.”

I still think the professor's approach sounds odd from the perspective of teaching undergrads. A professor telling undergrads his TA was grading too harshly? (If he really said that)

 

[10ofRods]

You got that right. Add to that the face that he feels like he knows it all. It could get real interesting. JMO

Are you thinking what I'm thinking? Because, this thought has crossed my mind many times.

As an example: while Idaho will not allow a plea of insanity, it's well known that the process of Justice can be softened up (especially with plea bargains and sentencing) by obvious evidence of mental incompetency on the part of the defendant.

Didn't we hear that Bryan said he wanted to go back and "exonerate" himself? Well, then. Ought he not have given the exonerating evidence to his attorney? She is probably advising him to take a plea bargain. I think it's possible he won't do it just in order to be defiant (against her in particular, and authority in general).

MOO.

 

[10ofRods]

I agree that student has been most vocal. Here's an article from the student newspaper that mentions another student's take on the event.

‘I just felt so sick and disgusted:’ Students learn they knew murder suspect Bryan Kohberger

The arrest of former WSU graduate student Bryan Kohberger shocked the Cougar community as some students realized they interacted with him over the past semester. Kohberger was a TA for at least two WSU classes: Criminal Justice 101 and Criminal Law (Criminal Justice 320), according to students...

dailyevergreen.com

"Famularo talked about a time last semester, around late October 2022, when the class and even the professor felt Kohberger had graded them too harshly on an exam."

“[The professor] brought Bryan before the class and let us tell him we were disappointed and ask him questions about it,” they said. “That was probably the most interaction any of us had with him.”

I still think the professor's approach sounds odd from the perspective of teaching undergrads. A professor telling undergrads his TA was grading too harshly? (If he really said that)

Oh, it happens! (When someone is grading unfairly or too harshly).

But notice that *this* student doesn't say that the professor said, "Go get him" or whatever is in that other article (frequently misquoted, which I am sure I just did - "go at him" seems to be what the woman says in the interview.

Now we have another student saying we can "ask him questions" rather than "go get him." Very very different.

By the way, the professor has little choice if students complain that a TA is grading women lower than men (which is what happened here). It's a Title IX violation (federal statute, I believe) and the prof can lose his job over it. We cannot allow sex or gender discrimination. Period. And it's not hard to see if you use a simple statistical program to analyze grades - it pops out right away if a prof or TA is giving lower scores to women - and the next step is of course to submit the questionable assignments to another prof for grading - if the prof scores them more equitably, that TA has to be reigned in - or fired (it's up to the College/University to decide that detail - TA's can be given leeway).

I figure the prof had data that showed that BK was grading women unfairly. So he went to his Dean, who went to HR, who suggested an attempt at behavioral modification for BK. Just that suggestion shows that the University was aware of the problem - so now they *must* follow through or some or all of the women in question are going to go to the Title IX office and not only will there be lawsuits, but the University can lose its federal funding (including the ability to give student loans).

So, from a university's point of view, this is very serious (and rarely happens! Most TA's do NOT have different grading curves for men and women!)

So BK stood out, HR realized it, advised the professor while they wheeled his termination case into the long line of Board actions. And he was terminated.

But saying, "Ask him questions" is quite a bit different than saying "go at him."

IMO>

 

[MassGuy]

Douglas is very quotable, but he loves a generalisation.

Take Kemper, a serial killer who he interviewed at length, who when he was 'done' went on the run, expecting an enormous manhunt to be chasing him. They weren't. He phoned police and confessed, to get it over with. They thought he was making it up, and told him to call back later. He called AGAIN and asked to speak directly to a cop he knew, and finally got traction. He confessed not only to the murder of his mother, but to multiple other killings, without being pressured.

Take List, a mass murderer who planned everything down to the minute, even stopping the newspaper delivery, and as a result, wasn't caught for almost two decades, and probably would never have been if it wasn't for a reconstruction by Bender and a massive media push on America's Most Wanted.

I could go on.

That said, I agree with you and think BK, if the perpetrator of this crime, didn't want or expect to get caught. I think he thought he was too smart.

MOO

Douglas had nothing to do with those things though. Kemper was in prison already, and List was a family annihilator like Chris Watts, only a bit smarter, and about the same in regards to being a nerdy loser. Douglas had no involvement in that one as well either, at least to my recollection.

Not everyone fits into a perfect mold, which is why phrases like “disorganized” and “organized,” really aren’t used anymore. It’s a spectrum.

But he helped pioneer this stuff, which is an accomplishment in and of itself, even if more insight has been gathered, and thinking has changed.

 

[Muddy K]

I thought I remember seeing somewhere BK eased up after 11/13.
Bryan Kohberger ‘seemed preoccupied’ after Idaho murders: former student
Bryan Kohberger's student claims he became lax while grading papers, grew facial hair after Idaho murders

Yes, and at the time, there seemed to be some assumption that "pressure" may have been released by the act of killing, resulting in a "kinder, gentler," Bryan Kohberger, but in light of the news about his termination as a TA, I'm more inclined to think he may have dialed back on the harsh grading in an effort to keep the position.

JMO, IMO.

 

[MassGuy]

Sounds about right:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1623486477224251393

 

[NCWatcher]

Oh, it happens! (When someone is grading unfairly or too harshly).

But notice that *this* student doesn't say that the professor said, "Go get him" or whatever is in that other article (frequently misquoted, which I am sure I just did - "go at him" seems to be what the woman says in the interview.

Now we have another student saying we can "ask him questions" rather than "go get him." Very very different.

By the way, the professor has little choice if students complain that a TA is grading women lower than men (which is what happened here). It's a Title IX violation (federal statute, I believe) and the prof can lose his job over it. We cannot allow sex or gender discrimination. Period. And it's not hard to see if you use a simple statistical program to analyze grades - it pops out right away if a prof or TA is giving lower scores to women - and the next step is of course to submit the questionable assignments to another prof for grading - if the prof scores them more equitably, that TA has to be reigned in - or fired (it's up to the College/University to decide that detail - TA's can be given leeway).

I figure the prof had data that showed that BK was grading women unfairly. So he went to his Dean, who went to HR, who suggested an attempt at behavioral modification for BK. Just that suggestion shows that the University was aware of the problem - so now they *must* follow through or some or all of the women in question are going to go to the Title IX office and not only will there be lawsuits, but the University can lose its federal funding (including the ability to give student loans).

So, from a university's point of view, this is very serious (and rarely happens! Most TA's do NOT have different grading curves for men and women!)

So BK stood out, HR realized it, advised the professor while they wheeled his termination case into the long line of Board actions. And he was terminated.

But saying, "Ask him questions" is quite a bit different than saying "go at him."

IMO>

I'd be surprised if any sort of behavioral intervention was tried for a Title IX violation. I am aware of how serious Title IX violations are. If that was suspected, allowing BK to continue to grade essays and exams -- with or without some classroom intervention--- just wouldn't have happened anywhere I know of. And just how was differential M/F grading supposed to be brought up by the students during this classroom intervention? Or was that not really the problem? The only students we've heard from seem to think BK graded everybody harshly. Then he graded everybody leniently and gave all 100s.

The professor telling the class BK was grading too harshly was odd to me if that really happened. The buck stops with the professor-- a professor publicly blaming a TA for grading? Very odd. And a simple solution--maybe the professor should have looked at a random sample of exams before they were returned.

No way I'm going to see what happened as good educational practice. Maybe it wasn't as bad as it seems now but it surely wasn't good IMO.

 

[Twistinginthewind]

Grand juries are only traditionally sat/seated/whatever to determine if someone should be indicted and face charges or to elicit cooperation from uncooperative witnesses. It's powers are broader...but they don't extend into the court system.

We are mostly past the charges phase.

So I'm assuming you mean trial by judge?

Yes, thanks, that is what I meant: Trial by judge instead of jury, which is much less common. MOO

 

[Twistinginthewind]

Not possible at this point.

IME and IMO.

I meant trial by judge instead of jury. MOO

 

[Helechawagirl]

From the link: “"He brought in Bryan, and he was like, 'alright, go at him,”

That phrasing makes it clear that the professor’s exact words are not being quoted by the student.

And that’s fine—we get the feel of it, as experienced by that student.

MOO

Thank you. I knew I read that somewhere but couldn’t find it. And I agree that the prof likely didn’t say that. JMO

 

[10ofRods]

I'd be surprised if any sort of behavioral intervention was tried for a Title IX violation. I am aware of how serious Title IX violations are. If that was suspected, allowing BK to continue to grade essays and exams -- with or without some classroom intervention--- just wouldn't have happened anywhere I know of. And just how was differential M/F grading supposed to be brought up by the students during this classroom intervention? Or was that not really the problem? The only students we've heard from seem to think BK graded everybody harshly. Then he graded everybody leniently and gave all 100s.

The professor telling the class BK was grading too harshly was odd to me if that really happened. The buck stops with the professor-- a professor publicly blaming a TA for grading? Very odd. And a simple solution--maybe the professor should have looked at a random sample of exams before they were returned.

No way I'm going to see what happened as good educational practice. Maybe it wasn't as bad as it seems now but it surely wasn't good IMO.

My point is that everyone involved is trying VERY hard to avoid the Title IX problems. If you took what I said as coming FROM the Title IX office, then I didn't write it very well.

HR is an intermediary stop. Supposed to head it all off at the pass - often with good results (from HR's point of view).

I am not surprised at all that someone (perhaps just the professor) organized a behavioral intervention. Perhaps he told his Dean. Sex/gender inequality in grading is very very serious - every college that has complaints must show documentation of steps taken to address it. Many times the message is garbled by the time the prof is given "suggestions," and, well, every is exasperated, of course.

I thought I read that BK was relieved of grading duties - but that was a process that took time and so it only applied to the future (current semester). No one is relieved of duties just because the prof is concerned. Prof is not going to contact Title IX (and as far as we know, the students have been informed of their rights by the required posters, handbooks, fliers, messages that they all get - no professor is required to educate people about Title IX).

I have no idea how the students were supposed to help by bringing stuff up in the classroom. I don't know that the prof said "everyone is graded harshly by Mr Kohberger" (who was standing there). That sounds absurd to me. A random sample of exams wouldn't necessary reveal the entire problem - but would have given clues (he needed data about how other TA's are grading, IMO - also, sometimes there are just statistical blips and he'd have had to make guesses based on the students' names - who was a woman, who was a man).

It was not good educational practice. But it's like any other profession. And, given that it was criminology (so a more legalistic mindset, IME), it doesn't surprise me that the prof was familiar with behavioral mod techniques. In every instance of this kind of complaint that I've ever heard, it is the *individual* woman who claims she was graded unfairly (how do the students have this data about the whole class? I assume there was something like an uprising or a petition or that many women complained). I've actually never seen or heard of anything like this. Not even in records of educational practices 100 years ago. Sure, some profs or TA's grade unfairly, but wholesale grading of Men Good, Women Bad - that's rarely anything that happens any more.

If it had been my class, I'd have take over the grading for the TA, grumbled, and said, "I'll deal with this guy after I regrade ALL of what he does." I'd have required him to take notes on the papers (not write on top of the students' writing) and submit those notes, along with the grade. Of course, this technique would surely result in the TA being much more careful not to show bias - but if bias existed, I'd follow the steps outlined at my institution and report him first to the Dean - who may or may not contact Title IX. I wouldn't have talked about it in class, at all. I would't have tried to get his pay docked, but I wouldn't have accepted him as a TA in the next semester, and of course, I'd have alerted the Department Chair and we'd all have discussed this person as a group. If another professor had the same experience the next semester (if they thought I was being weird and that he should have a second chance - I actually know a guy who would definitely have taken Bryan on as a TA even after such a debacle), then if that professor also reported to the Dean, it would be a termination offense.

Since the word "altercation" is used for a September interaction between professor and BK, I don't think this all started with that session. A grad student left class because of him. Women in the undergrad sections are complaining. It's a lot to handle and it's not really the job of the prof (not a manager), The manager is the Dean. Full stop. I can see a Dean advising such an intervention, though. Deans are often just random people who didn't land anywhere in academia and are floating from place to place (it's all at-will employment in Deanland) and therefore very conscious about trying to keep their own jobs.

MOO.


But in my daily life I see profs doing very different kinds of things.

 

[wary]

I meant trial by judge instead of jury. MOO

Why do you think that a bench trial (trial by judge,) is likely?

There’s a reason that it’s extremely rare—that it’s seldom in the interests of the defendant. With a jury trial, the defense only has to sway or confuse one person out of twelve. The judge, presumably, isn’t going to fall for the higher standard of ‘guilty beyond the shadow of a doubt.’ And above all, the judge sees attorney shenanigans day in and day out, and is less likely to be swayed by opening statement drama, or a fantasized SODDI defense.

MOO