ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 17

[Hank0723]

Just sickens me that something like this can happen to four kids in a college town.

My four years in college were some of the most joyous, special years of my life.

Only a true coward could kill defenseless young women while they slept.

Come on FBI, this coward/killer needs to go down HARD asap.

That’s what I’ve been calling this person the whole time A COWARD.

 

[Seattle1]

Newsnation's latest

( news nation producing material based on sleuth's finding of that 3am police report and on the work of retired behavioural analyst who found this route, many days ago, on Thanksgiving)

Banfield's report is using outdated info that is not consistent with updated details specifically by Moscow Police: King Road Homicides | Moscow, ID

 

[AngTxGal]

I don’t blame him either. But this is exactly why LE is reluctant to provide regular updates to family members. To family it is maddening and seems cold, uncaring and disrespectful, but it’s hard to imagine what it’s like to have inside information on a case involving a loved one and not be able to share it. And sharing it with a just few close friends can be dangerous—they tell a few of their friends, etc. and pretty soon the information may “get out”.

It must be hard for LE not to share details w/the family but they are protecting the ability to eventually get justice. And IMO protecting family from the burden of having heartwrenching, disturbing info they can’t share. Making it even more painful, often the sharing is done reluctantly to correct wild accusations click-hungry media and internet trolls are spewing about their butchered loved one.

Just so painful. I don’t fault her Dad one bit and my heart aches for all the victim’s families and friends.

So what did Delphi do right? What was done that prevented families from feeling left in the dark due to a lack of care while staying confident the investigation was not being compromised?
Leadership? They were patient for nearly six years… and are still being patient.

Is it possible the state police and FBI must stay on the periphery until incompetence is clear, or a formal request is made by someone- victim’s families? DA? Local LE? Attorney General? Governor?

JMO/ MOO

 

[cottonweaver]

Banfield's report is using outdated info that is not consistent with updated details specifically by Moscow Police: King Road Homicides | Moscow, ID

sorry, what are you directing my attention to on this page? can you give me a hint so I can find it quickly ( as to how it relates to the 3am police report of drunk incident?)

 

[North_Idaho_Nony]

This appears like a tragic accident, not really the type of event that would be related.
My guess is the school paper is not going to be running scandals about Greek Life or any other type of student life event that would imply negligence on the part of a frat, sorority, or the school. The university would react publicly, if at all, and then stay silent or carefully follow the legal advisement.
What about the local paper?

I was specifically answering a question about any active frat investigations. I’m assuming there’s still an active investigation given that it was so recent.

The local newspaper published a similar single article; there has been no follow-up I’m aware of.

That frat is on private property “adjacent” to the UI as well.

 

[Sjöberg]

Due to the surviving roommates already being asleep in their rooms at this point in time (on the other side of the house)

Is this the case that the surviving roommates were asleep when the others arrived home?
I have not really seen it stated in any official sources. While the SR arrived back home 45-60 minutes earlier, I assume they took some time getting ready to bed etc and they might have been either, tucked in and fast asleep or still active at that time and hanging out with the others.

 

[autumnal]

It was nice to hear Maddie's father mention her boyfriend Jake.
My heart hurts so for that man, all the families for sure, but he was so in love with her... his only child.
He tried so hard putting that nice suit on as well.
They were such bright young people. Such light. Such energy. Kids who worked hard and had direction.
All young people are beautiful in their own way.
I'm sure the victims had struggles as young people do but their personalities just seemed to jump out in the photos and videos.
This case has hit me very hard. Like the Watts case did. Unforgettable.
God Help those families and friends.

 

[EightiesBoo]

Long time listener, first time caller … so I haven’t seen it mentioned that they have had any search dogs out? Looking for a scent trail for the perpetrator? I had seen it mentioned (not sure where at in one of a million posts) that it’s *believed* this individual has a hunting license. In my neck of the woods EVERYONE has a hunting license, but you definitely know the serious ones.

A serious and avid hunter will use deer urine , or Pheromones to disguise their scent. The deer urine is very smelly. I’m curious if the responding officers or paramedics may have recognized the smell. And possibly a reason that they haven’t been able to track a scent properly because there are probably deer around the area?

I could be off base and this is totally just a thought, but it’s interesting to think about.

 

[Sandy007]

I've been reading this forum since thread #1 and there has been a gamut of speculation about every detail of what happened. There are two sayings, that I keep coming back to: 1) take the path of least resistance, and 2) when you hear hoof prints, look for a horse, not a unicorn.

I do think this was a rage killing targeting either K or M and I lean towards K because she was just in town for the weekend. The killer may have known that K had broken up with her boyfriend and saw his opportunity to hit on her or ask her out. It's possible that the killer was harassing K and M earlier that night and she turned him down in a way that either made him feel ashamed or embarrassed and that was she he made the decision to get back at her. I think the reason K and M tried calling K's ex-boyfriend so many times is perhaps because K's unwelcome suitor may know K's boyfriend.

However, I think as rage goes, it is usually not well-planned out, but is more reactive and vengeful. I think the killer made entry into the house through the unlocked sliding glass door (hence the "path or least resistance" and "horse, not unicorn" -- i.e. climbing up the the 3rd floor to enter). I think E either heard the sliding glass door open and got up to see who it was or he got up to go to the bathroom which is off the common area (remember, they had all been at parties/drinking). These are reasonable reasons for why he may have gotten up (think horse, not unicorn).

I think the guy had made it to the bedroom door by the time E heard the noise and decided to get up to check out who was coming in the sliding glass door. I think E surprised the guy and he seriously wounded E with the first stab or two. I think this activity woke up X and the guy had to stab her because she could disrupt his plan to kill his target. She didn't have time to get out of bed, but was awake enough to have defense wounds. I think he stabbed her to death and then went back to stab E to death.

Then, with E and X out of the way, I think he went upstairs to find his target. However, I think he was surprised a second time, when he found K and M sleeping in the same bed. He couldn't kill one without killing them both because the second one would wake up. I think finding them together foiled his plan which may have been to rape and then, kill his target and this further enraged him. I think he stabbed one girl and immediately stabbed the other one and then went back and forth stabbing them in a rage until they were dead. We know that at least one of the two girls was intoxicated and they were both asleep.

I don't think his plan was to kill everyone in the house because he was acting out of rage. I think he wanted to kill one girl, and had to kill the other 3 because they were in his way and could prevent him from getting to his target. And so, they unfortunately were collateral damage. I don't even think he went to the first floor at all because he had killed his targeted victim. The two girls on the first floor weren't in his way and the killer probably thought they were asleep or he may not have even known they were in the house.

I think the killer either put Murphy the dog in a closet, or outside the bedroom door or in one of the empty bedrooms BEFORE he killed the girls.

After carrying out these murders, I have no doubt that his shoes and clothes were covered in blood as would be the knife. But what he may have done next is where I am conflicted. I think he was smart enough to know that he couldn't leave a bloody trail going out of the house and straight to him. So, I do think that he tried to clean himself up in the kitchen by washing blood off of his face and arms and hands and wiping blood off his shoes. I also think he washed the knife so that it's not dripping blood as he leaves the house. I think he was carrying a backpack as most students do and he put the knife in the backpack along with his coat that may have had blood all over it. That leaves blood on his shirt and jeans. Cotton is very absorbent and it likely absorbed the blood and thus, he wasn't dripping blood.

I think he left through the sliding glass door which is the path of least resistance and the obvious exit (think horse, not unicorn). He probably went back to where he lived and put the bloody clothes straight into the washer. That late at night, it is probable that no one was around to see him doing laundry.

<modsnip>

I don't tend to think that any of the other things surrounding this case - the 3 AM 911 call, the previous cases that have similarities, the skinned dog, etc are related to this case and are likely coincidental.

So this is my two cents again.

I really liked your post: keeping close to all facts known, logical.

I agree with a lot you said, but i disagree/getting confused with the killer's escape part.

I agree that the trigger of this was K. Seems logical, she already left the town for good, certainly a lot of people were aware of her plans to relocate across the country and she never made secret out of it (her ad on social media to sale her old car, for example, clearly states she is going away and not planning to return). She did not suppose to be in Moscow, Idaho on that night. She came to show her friends the car she just bought so a lot of people must be taken by suprise when they saw her as she walked in Corner Club that night.

Perhaps, that surprise gave steength to K. admirer to try his luck that night. Only to be turned down, as obviously that admirer were not with the girls when they went to buy food later on. I agree with this.

At the sane time, K. and M. went to a place with much higher risk to meet and attract someone who later would atrack and kill. The trigger for this attack must be somewhere there.

And that explains why the investigation focused on K. and M. movings and whereabouts that night. Besides, X. and E. were in much safer environment that evening, at a party with people most of whom they knew very well.

I am not sure the guy is a student, his actions speak of more mature person, for example someone who can handle own rage at front of others but release it in full with vulnerable. This points to mature person with certain level of responsibilities in their job. They cannot handle rejection in either general or in that period of time in their lives.

I agree that he wanted to teach K. a lesson that night for whatever reason he thought justifies his perception of his right to teach and punish others.

He must have been somehow familiar with the complicated layout of the house prior to attack. If he had long term crush on K. as you suggest and I agree with, then he could have watch the house for a while, not necessarily planning to attack, just to watch her. He might have been on one or two parties there, as he would have tried to get close to her. Or he was in the house in other function - delivery, maintenance jobs, property management, street maintenance. You would never get to that neighbourhood if you do not have/want to go there.

With revelation that both girls died in the same bed, the motives of the killer as we discussed them prior to knowing this, need to be altered, too. I agree with your explanation how the attack has happened and why 4 young innocent people died that night.

He may did not plan to kill 4 people.

But, he had a military type knife with him, prepared to be used. And that points towards planning to hurt mission. Planning to kill, if the need to or opportunity arises. If he was just planning to teach K. a lesson, not killing others, he would have left the house the moment when he heard E. or X. coming out or getting disturbed. But the killer did not hesitate to attack, kill and carry on with killings. He was mentally, psychically and instrumentally prepared to kill.

That points to much better organised, focused, merciless person. Person whose basic instinct is to attack and kill, not just to punish. That is another reason why I am not sure he is a student, but more mature man. For some reasons I think he is 32, plus minus 1 year. Do not ask me why. My perception of mature physically but still immature mentally man.

The escape route is a story on itself. He was dripping blood. Even if he washed his boots and clothes somewhere in the house, he must have dripping blood and blooded water whenever he went.

What puzzles me if why the surviving girls did not notice blood drops on the second floor, there must have been a lot, leading to the kitchen sliding door.

There must have been blood around the door of E. and X. bedroom, where the killings started. That was also not spotted, so someone would go ahead and immediatelly call the police, not friends? Strange.

Handling the dog and silencing him without harming is also a telling story. I had a dog myself, they sense when their owner is in danger and would wake up half of the city barking. It takes a lot of knowledge and experience to handle the dog not to bark when their owner and other people are attacked. Dogs sense blood, it is in their instincts. So, the killer may have a dog himself or he used to have dog, he may be training dogs, working in dog centers or in vets surgery. Thinking of how delivery and dog might be linked, how about delivery of dogs food? Where K did order the dog food from?

 

[Sandy007]

Long time listener, first time caller … so I haven’t seen it mentioned that they have had any search dogs out? Looking for a scent trail for the perpetrator? I had seen it mentioned (not sure where at in one of a million posts) that it’s *believed* this individual has a hunting license. In my neck of the woods EVERYONE has a hunting license, but you definitely know the serious ones.

A serious and avid hunter will use deer urine , or Pheromones to disguise their scent. The deer urine is very smelly. I’m curious if the responding officers or paramedics may have recognized the smell. And possibly a reason that they haven’t been able to track a scent properly because there are probably deer around the area?

I could be off base and this is totally just a thought, but it’s interesting to think about.

The LE had search dogs there. Let me find the image

 

[TheBorez]

The timeline given by LE has always stuck out to me. By the 14th November LE confirmed that they believed the killings took place between 3-4am. Within 24 hours of 4 murders taking place, this is quite a precise window of time.
The most obvious way to tell the time of the killings would be to assume that K and M ate the food they purchased immediately once they got home, the location of the food in the body and the point where the digestive process stopped would allow LE to narrow down to about a 1 hour window. (This is speculative because they may eaten it an hour or so after they returned home, normal enough behaviour.)
The issue I have with this is, the Coroner didn't release details until 17th November and I don't know that four autopsies would have been carried out by the 14th.
Technology is excellent for cases like this but usually there is a lot of red tape to get through before LE can get what they need - this means I'm inclined to believe the timeline is not a result of data from technology. - Even if it was, it would need to be an Apple Watch, Fitbit etc. because activity stopping on a phone doesn't necessarily mean the person died as the activity stopped.

There are many cases where LE have gotten an early timeline wrong and it has skewed their investigation, perhaps a person doesn't need an alibi between 3-4am, perhaps they need one between 6-7am. I realise LE have a lot of resource on this and most likely their timeline is accurate however I also recognise that time of death can be difficult to pin down, especially within a 1 hour window.

I also question LE asking for video surveillance from 3am-6am when the perp could have been waiting outside the home from very early that day, they may also have hidden in woods etc. and not left until later that morning 10am etc, so that if they were caught on video it wouldn't arouse suspicion as it wasn't around the time of the murders.

Long post but the bottom line is, the 1 hour window being released so early is questionable for me.

 

[BrownRice]

Two of them had takeaway food to eat and the other pair had been on a separate night out, so it's unlikely they went straight to their rooms after arriving home, they likely congregated together to eat and talk for a bit after arriving home.

If the group congregated in the kitchen (very likely IMO), it has no curtain and a large glass door. Behind the house, amongst the foliage, is a good location to watch the kitchen but because of the steep hill its also a good location to see the bedrooms and when they turn off their lights and go to bed.

Due to the surviving roommates already being asleep in their rooms at this point in time (on the other side of the house) and the fact that they were spared, could imply that the perp assumed there were only 4 people in the house and was not familiar with the unusual layout.

This would imply the attack was opportunistic and they may not be very familiar with each other.

Excellent point about the foursome being in the kitchen n full view of the windows.

 

[cottonweaver]

Long time listener, first time caller … so I haven’t seen it mentioned that they have had any search dogs out? Looking for a scent trail for the perpetrator? I had seen it mentioned (not sure where at in one of a million posts) that it’s *believed* this individual has a hunting license. In my neck of the woods EVERYONE has a hunting license, but you definitely know the serious ones.

A serious and avid hunter will use deer urine , or Pheromones to disguise their scent. The deer urine is very smelly. I’m curious if the responding officers or paramedics may have recognized the smell. And possibly a reason that they haven’t been able to track a scent properly because there are probably deer around the area?

I could be off base and this is totally just a thought, but it’s interesting to think about.

other members will recall more details - I only started posting from thread 16- but I saw mention they'd used dogs and saw some footage of them using a German Shepard around the perimeter.

with the deer urine thing tho, isn't that to mask human scent when both hunter and prey are in situ, at same time. In this case, with a K9 unit using a scent hound many hours after the perp has left doesn't the perp have to have left his scent, such as on an item of clothing?

as for blood hounds, not sure if they used a dog to track blood deposits around the perimeter but someone here will know.

re perp having a hunting link, in general it sounds plausible- the knife. stealth. quick kills ( maybe knowing what to body areas to target first in case of two victims same bed, what to target to reduce victim crying out. Don't want to get too graphic)

 

[BrownRice]

The timeline given by LE has always stuck out to me. By the 14th November LE confirmed that they believed the killings took place between 3-4am. Within 24 hours of 4 murders taking place, this is quite a precise window of time.
The most obvious way to tell the time of the killings would be to assume that K and M ate the food they purchased immediately once they got home, the location of the food in the body and the point where the digestive process stopped would allow LE to narrow down to about a 1 hour window. (This is speculative because they may eaten it an hour or so after they returned home, normal enough behaviour.)
The issue I have with this is, the Coroner didn't release details until 17th November and I don't know that four autopsies would have been carried out by the 14th.
Technology is excellent for cases like this but usually there is a lot of red tape to get through before LE can get what they need - this means I'm inclined to believe the timeline is not a result of data from technology. - Even if it was, it would need to be an Apple Watch, Fitbit etc. because activity stopping on a phone doesn't necessarily mean the person died as the activity stopped.

There are many cases where LE have gotten an early timeline wrong and it has skewed their investigation, perhaps a person doesn't need an alibi between 3-4am, perhaps they need one between 6-7am. I realise LE have a lot of resource on this and most likely their timeline is accurate however I also recognise that time of death can be difficult to pin down, especially within a 1 hour window.

I also question LE asking for video surveillance from 3am-6am when the perp could have been waiting outside the home from very early that day, they may also have hidden in woods etc. and not left until later that morning 10am etc, so that if they were caught on video it wouldn't arouse suspicion as it wasn't around the time of the murders.

Long post but the bottom line is, the 1 hour window being released so early is questionable for me.

I agree about the 3-4 window. I wonder if that’s going to change like everything else.

 

[OrangeRhyme]

The timeline given by LE has always stuck out to me. By the 14th November LE confirmed that they believed the killings took place between 3-4am. Within 24 hours of 4 murders taking place, this is quite a precise window of time.
The most obvious way to tell the time of the killings would be to assume that K and M ate the food they purchased immediately once they got home, the location of the food in the body and the point where the digestive process stopped would allow LE to narrow down to about a 1 hour window. (This is speculative because they may eaten it an hour or so after they returned home, normal enough behaviour.)
The issue I have with this is, the Coroner didn't release details until 17th November and I don't know that four autopsies would have been carried out by the 14th.
Technology is excellent for cases like this but usually there is a lot of red tape to get through before LE can get what they need - this means I'm inclined to believe the timeline is not a result of data from technology. - Even if it was, it would need to be an Apple Watch, Fitbit etc. because activity stopping on a phone doesn't necessarily mean the person died as the activity stopped.

There are many cases where LE have gotten an early timeline wrong and it has skewed their investigation, perhaps a person doesn't need an alibi between 3-4am, perhaps they need one between 6-7am. I realise LE have a lot of resource on this and most likely their timeline is accurate however I also recognise that time of death can be difficult to pin down, especially within a 1 hour window.

I also question LE asking for video surveillance from 3am-6am when the perp could have been waiting outside the home from very early that day, they may also have hidden in woods etc. and not left until later that morning 10am etc, so that if they were caught on video it wouldn't arouse suspicion as it wasn't around the time of the murders.

Long post but the bottom line is, the 1 hour window being released so early is questionable for me.

I think they can calculate by temperature of body if it still warm, also blood pooling, blood clotting around the wounds etc
I think they use a few different data points and then they come up with a probabilistic estimate.

When a body is fresh and indoors, they can be accurate. If it's outside for weeks or months, the accuracy obviously drops.

 

[Sandy007]

The police at Moscow, Idaho was called at 3 am on the night of the murders for alcoholic related disturbance at fields off Taylor Street, which is 1 min from 1122.

 

[TheBorez]

Excellent point about the foursome being in the kitchen n full view of the windows.

There are photos which show the sliding doors did in fact have quite a large navy curtain however whether or not this was used on the night I am unsure. I seen photos with the curtain closed over while the door slightly ajar.

 

[TheBorez]

I think they can calculate by temperature of body if it still warm, also blood pooling, blood clotting around the wounds etc
I think they use a few different data points and then they come up with a probabilistic estimate.

When a body is fresh and indoors, they can be accurate. If it's outside for weeks or months, the accuracy obviously drops.

Totally agree - Many different ways to determine approx. time of death - it was the speed at which this information was released to the public that raised my eyebrow... Seemingly before autopsies were completed. It isn't abnormal for time of death estimates to be an hour or so out, that's why the tight 1 hour window seems strange to me.

 

[Seattle1]

In the parents’ defense their fear the killer might attend her funeral was not fear for themselves. They were afraid he’d attend and that would be a disgusting insult, the final horror, for their daughter and their family. Not physical fear.

I dunno, IMO, insult is not something one necessarily seeks a guarantee for.

 

[ObsessedNightOwl]

I hope that LE examine and investigate where KG may have stopped for gas, food, and coffee etc., on her way back to Moscow.
She is described as being open and friendly and may have excitedly spoken about the adventure she was in or where she was headed to a friendly clerk or waitperson or gas station clerk etc., which may have been overheard by another (unsavory, psychopathic) customer who then followed her to Moscow, and murdered there. I hope they track where she was and review tapes from the places she may have stopped.
I remember reading about something like this happening - some (3?) young men were going fishing in a remote place in or near their hometown, and they stopped at a dollar store on the way and chatted openly about what they were doing and where they were going, with the friendly clerk. Unknowing to them, the customer in line behind them was listening in, and rounded up accomplices and
followed them, and killed them.

Interesting post.....similar thing happened several years ago when a relative of mine was murdered in his home. The killer was caught and brought to trial and eventually found guilty of a home invasion murder. The police theory was that the killer had seen him with a large amount on money at a gas station prior to the home invasion and murder. The killer had then followed him to his home where he lived alone. This happened after dark so was not noticed by neighbors. It happened in a fairly suburban neighborhood where the houses are about 100 feet apart separated by trees and shrubs.