ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 37

[mickey2942]

If there is a homicide unit, they haven’t been busy. Not a murder in seven years. I believe that they are more of a full service police department. I’m just spitballing here, this seems to be a pretty complex case. I’m not saying they are incapable of handling a case of this magnitude, I just wonder if experience can help in the process. I’m not disparaging local LE, I just think that the more times you do a thing, the better you get at it. If the FBI is part of the interview process, I assume they have seen more homicides.

I have wondered if the scene was comprised by Moscow ID, just due to inexperience with a multiple homicide scene. This is not being critical of LEO, just speculation if important evidence or statements, information, critical in the first 48 hours after the crime were missed.

No fault of LEO, this situation was extreme for this area.

 

[Nila Aella]

Chief Fry
2019 graduate of the FBI Academy.

Police chief takes advantage of a ‘once-in-a-lifetime experience'

Moscow Police Department Chief James Fry waited six years before his name was called to participate in a 10-week training course at the FBI National Academy in Quantico, Va.

dnews.com

FBI Academy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

I keep thinking about how many have talked about how unusual this case is, quadruple murder with a knife, three women and a man, not a lot to compare it to, etc. I know this is a stretch, but thinking about the psychology behind it, if the killer were an ego-based thrill killer, is it possible that he designed this to be unusual, something 'incomparable'? Is that even a thing or is it just compulsion? I know it seems like a silly question, but just wondering if anyone knows or has heard of this. NOT saying that this killer is that, this is more a general question re the psychology of it.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Why do you believe there is no homicide unit ? There are homicides that occur in Moscow, ID. They are near other cities. Not sure how you are assessing Moscow police capabilities.

That’s correct, they have listed 6 detectives working in their department before other units joined this complex investigation.

If there is a homicide unit, they haven’t been busy. Not a murder in seven years. I believe that they are more of a full service police department. I’m just spitballing here, this seems to be a pretty complex case. I’m not saying they are incapable of handling a case of this magnitude, I just wonder if experience can help in the process. I’m not disparaging local LE, I just think that the more times you do a thing, the better you get at it. If the FBI is part of the interview process, I assume they have seen more homicides.

They have 6 as part of their team, not all would be green as you’re suggesting, there would be transfers into Moscow, coming in with their background knowledge, but it’s great they’ve acquired the expert services of the FBI, Moscow PD acknowledge they need assistance.
Homicide detectives can’t work miracles.
This is an incredibly difficult investigation, and I’m glad they’re keeping tight lipped about what they’ve got and what they know, there’s a greater chance of a successful arrest and conviction, imo.

There’ll be the usual lot of people who confess to the crime and if they don’t know the details, they won’t succeed in holding up the investigation because of false confessions.
JMO

ASSIGNED RESOURCES​

The Moscow Police Department is utilizing assistance from the Idaho State Police, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, and the Latah County Sheriff’s Office. Assigned resources vary based on the current needs of the investigation. These numbers are approximated and do not reflect additional off-site personnel or other assistance provided.

Moscow Police Department:​

• 6 Detectives
• 5 Support Staff
• Communications Team

Federal Bureau of Investigation:​

• 60 personnel throughout the United States
• 2 Behavior Analysis Unit investigators

Idaho State Police:​

• 13 investigators in Moscow
• 15 uniformed troopers assisting with community patrols
• ISP Forensics Services

King Road Homicides | Moscow, ID

www.ci.moscow.id.us

 

[samanthadaniels1995]

If there is a homicide unit, they haven’t been busy. Not a murder in seven years. I believe that they are more of a full service police department. I’m just spitballing here, this seems to be a pretty complex case. I’m not saying they are incapable of handling a case of this magnitude, I just wonder if experience can help in the process. I’m not disparaging local LE, I just think that the more times you do a thing, the better you get at it. If the FBI is part of the interview process, I assume they have seen more homicides.

After reviewing the Moscow, ID police web pages I understand better the post I was replying to. Here is their overview. The Detectives serve under the services unit and are growing. There are cyber specialists as well.

Police | Moscow, ID

The FBI does not have jurisdiction because the incident is a local crime under the jurisdiction of the Moscow police. Moscow police can pull in the support they need. Not sure how a case like this with a large public interest would not have a highly coordinated response. The area however is mostly rural and can spam outside Moscow to the rest of Idaho. So, there are state and Homeland security personnel. This is not a New York city department and the buildings and spaces closely connected with toll road gates. This is solved in time, I believe.

FBI is involved just not responsible for the coordination of all entities. If there is something that they pick up on and have a solid link outside of other related crimes outside the state, then jurisdiction passes to FBI, I believe.

 

[Marie A]

I don't like that he remembers things so much later; the dude loves doing interviews, apparently! I don't know how to politely say a couple of things that are probably pertinent here, lol

I think I do understand why the cops might not take him as the best witness. I'll just put it that way. I wouldn't have everyone looking for the black car if the only source is him. Probably a red herring, imo. But maybe not! It's too hard to tell, darnit.

Honestly things after a trauma are OFTEN remembered later.
I was robbed a few years ago in a foreign country. It was really upsetting and I felt violated and stupid for carrying an open tote purse. I went to the police station and reported the robbery, filled out the details and spoke at length to a police officer.
It was only WEEKS later after replaying the time around when my wallet was taken from my purse (I noticed it missing half an hour after I had it in my hand) that I clearly remembered the store clerk bumping into me. I am certain that this bump was when my wallet was stolen but it took a long time for my brain to remember the serious bump and have clarity on the theft.
I sincerely wish I had remembered the bump at the time I reported the crime to the police but I did not.
The clerk who bumped me saw my wallet full of cash when I made a purchase a few minutes before she bumped into me.
Weeks later it was clear in my head but not the day or even the week after.
I personally appreciate the neighbor coming forward with this information and think he is legit in what he remembered hearing - all imho

Hoping and praying that others - any potential witnesses - may remember some details surrounding this crime that could potentially help piece it together. Also hoping they don’t doubt for a minute that after the trauma is less fresh and raw that there may be details that the brain remembers and clarity where there wasn’t.

Btw my wallet was returned to me by mail via the American Embassy several weeks after it was stolen with my credit cards and drivers license intact sans the wad of cash I was carrying.

 

[rahod1]

I keep thinking about how many have talked about how unusual this case is, quadruple murder with a knife, three women and a man, not a lot to compare it to, etc. I know this is a stretch, but thinking about the psychology behind it, if the killer were an ego-based thrill killer, is it possible that he designed this to be unusual, something 'incomparable'? Is that even a thing or is it just compulsion? I know it seems like a silly question, but just wondering if anyone knows or has heard of this. NOT saying that this killer is that, this is more a general question re the psychology of it.

MOO>> This is an *EGO BASED* killer. The only alternative would be a professional *hit*, a theory which I do not subscribe to. So, this then begs the question....was it based on affront to their EGO (rage,, jealousy) or did this arise from an inherent urge to kill? The former would entail some form of previous contact, which I find possible but unlikely. This is a lone killer who may done in the past and will probably do so going forward. MOO.

 

[Nila Aella]

Article: Describes all the Officers investigating the case.

https://www.idahostatesman.com/news/local/crime/article269498497.html

 

[blackbeary]

<modsnip>


I have about 100 theories. Some of them fall into "solo perp" territory. A few of them fall into "more than one person involved." On my list for "more than one person as perp," first on my list is a group of people who live together, are *very* tight in terms of their relationships and secrecy terms. Killers do not usually take their friends along, do they?

Since every single person murdered was part of Greek life and since there are active fraternities nearby, IF A GROUP of people committed this, I think it's the Greeks.

Second theory (which I have also mentioned but no one remembers that I"m merely listing theories) would be local cult of some other type.

I do not think it was a motorcycle gang or a drug cartel. IF IT WAS A GROUP of people, it's NOT, imo, a drug cartel. Or a group of hunters. Or a motorcycle gang. Or a trade union.

I have no opinion really on whether fraternities are "particularly malicious." Any group of people can become malicious, is my view after 40 years of working in forensics. Any group at all. But it's rarely a group.

What's the last group murder you heard about? For me, they are *all* gang-related. But I don't see any evidence of traditional gangs in Moscow, ID.

<modsnip >


I simply stated that ONE KIND OF MOTIVE is to suppress someone from saying something they know - about something. One kind of motive is secrecy. If a group of people attack other people, it's a COMMON MOTIVE. I've seen it many times. I never said it was an initiation ritual. I just said that IF there were alcohol use - or even worse, hazing - or even worse, sexual assaults inside an organization (in this case, a fraternity), there is MOTIVE for people (especially the actual ones involved) to cover it up - perhaps even including homicide. Wouldn't be the first time.

But I don't believe it was a group-created murder (yet).

<modsnip>

Im glad you are considering #2

 

[Stratocaster]

It's been six weeks in now....

Leaning wayyyyy more inside job with extended social circle, than random serial killer.....after digesting several reads, some fact, some fiction.



MOO

 

[kbckcern22]

Merry Christmas to all! I love how fast this thread is moving even with the holidays… just means so many of us care and want justice for these 4!!! I thought about all of their family members the last few days … so easy to get caught up in the gifts and ripping and running, sometimes we forget how lucky we are to be busy, tired and broke! Lol!

Anyways, just here to say I’m too far behind but a few things IMO I am set on:

Suspect is a friend or pretty well acquainted with victims
There is 1 suspect, possibly a get away driver but no more perps than that
E & X and there whereabouts after the frat party are not relevant
I feel like the suspect was on some kind of drug or very intoxicated and LUCKY!!! This is my take, my opinion, I don’t need ridiculed for my opinion! Keep up the hard work WSer’s!

 

[samanthadaniels1995]

It's been six weeks in now....

Leaning wayyyyy more inside job with extended social circle, than random serial killer.....after digesting several reads, some fact, some fiction.



MOO

Understand that this is within a more rural small town environment rather than a city. There is an unusual amount of factors to consider. In mathematical terms what is the value of 4 factorial ? It is 24 variations of possible interactions between the victims. However, if we include the suspect we have 5 factors which increases. to 120 combinations and keep adding a variable factor to 6 factorial. That number becomes 720 combinations of possible relationships. The relationship between the victims suspect, the University, the community creates a very complex set of conditions that solve the problem.

 

[SoHelpMeGod]

Can someone help me with a potential motive for multiple murderers to kill these four, yet leave two potential witnesses alive? <snipped for focus>

Here's another thought (not entirely my own, but I'll pass it along). In the Sept 1st noise complaint police body cam video the officer tells the 2 males who come to the door that he knows 1122 is a "sorority house".
Kaylee was an Alpha Phi. Maddie, Xana, Bethany, and Dylan were Pi Beta Phi. So if the officer is correct, perhaps the house is part of Pi Beta Phi ?
We know Maddie and Xana dropped out of Pi Beta Phi, and Kaylee wasn't a member (and ? if she had dropped out of Alpha Phi). As far as I know, I'm assuming Bethany and Dylan were still active in Pi Beta Phi.
I've never been in a sorority so I don't know how seriously these things are taken. Can someone live in a sorority house while not being a member of that sorority?
Is it possible that a group of crazed, angry Pi Beta Phi sisters with big knives took out Maddie, Xana, and Kaylee (and Ethan was either unfortunately in the wrong place, or maybe he was seen as a traitor), and left the other (assumed current) members of Pi Beta Phi alive? And maybe they were more aggressive with Kaylee because she was the competition?
Maybe someone local can confirm if 1122 King is actually a sorority designated house.
The thought of crazed sorority girls with knives scares me more than my theoretical predator watching the house from Walenta Drive!!
MOO, and please don't make fun of me!

 

[kbckcern22]

Here's another thought (not entirely my own, but I'll pass it along). In the Sept 1st noise complaint police body cam video the officer tells the 2 males who come to the door that he knows 1122 is a "sorority house".
Kaylee was an Alpha Phi. Maddie, Xana, Bethany, and Dylan were Pi Beta Phi. So if the officer is correct, perhaps the house is part of Pi Beta Phi ?
We know Maddie and Xana dropped out of Pi Beta Phi, and Kaylee wasn't a member (and ? if she had dropped out of Alpha Phi). As far as I know, I'm assuming Bethany and Dylan were still active in Pi Beta Phi.
I've never been in a sorority so I don't know how seriously these things are taken. Can someone live in a sorority house while not being a member of that sorority?
Is it possible that a group of crazed, angry Pi Beta Phi sisters with big knives took out Maddie, Xana, and Kaylee (and Ethan was either unfortunately in the wrong place, or maybe he was seen as a traitor), and left the other (assumed current) members of Pi Beta Phi alive? And maybe they were more aggressive with Kaylee because she was the competition?
Maybe someone local can confirm if 1122 King is actually a sorority designated house.
The thought of crazed sorority girls with knives scares me more than my theoretical predator watching the house from Walenta Drive!!
MOO, and please don't make fun of me!

I’ve never went down this path but it’s a great path to ponder! No making fun of here- the more logical brains working the better!!!

 

[KPO]

<modsnip>


I have about 100 theories. Some of them fall into "solo perp" territory. A few of them fall into "more than one person involved." On my list for "more than one person as perp," first on my list is a group of people who live together, are *very* tight in terms of their relationships and secrecy terms. Killers do not usually take their friends along, do they?

Since every single person murdered was part of Greek life and since there are active fraternities nearby, IF A GROUP of people committed this, I think it's the Greeks.

Second theory (which I have also mentioned but no one remembers that I"m merely listing theories) would be local cult of some other type.

I do not think it was a motorcycle gang or a drug cartel. IF IT WAS A GROUP of people, it's NOT, imo, a drug cartel. Or a group of hunters. Or a motorcycle gang. Or a trade union.

I have no opinion really on whether fraternities are "particularly malicious." Any group of people can become malicious, is my view after 40 years of working in forensics. Any group at all. But it's rarely a group.

What's the last group murder you heard about? For me, they are *all* gang-related. But I don't see any evidence of traditional gangs in Moscow, ID.

<modsnip >


I simply stated that ONE KIND OF MOTIVE is to suppress someone from saying something they know - about something. One kind of motive is secrecy. If a group of people attack other people, it's a COMMON MOTIVE. I've seen it many times. I never said it was an initiation ritual. I just said that IF there were alcohol use - or even worse, hazing - or even worse, sexual assaults inside an organization (in this case, a fraternity), there is MOTIVE for people (especially the actual ones involved) to cover it up - perhaps even including homicide. Wouldn't be the first time.

But I don't believe it was a group-created murder (yet).

<modsnip>

There actually are that many possible profiles technically and only LE are privy to facts that would narrow that list down.

<modsnip>

 

[BaseballMama]

None of the victims had close to 50k followers at the time of the murders. I saw their Instagrams right after their names were released and they had between 800-1,500 followers at that time.

I’ve tried to say this exact thing on here but I get skeptical responses. Wish I would have screenshot their IG’s. But I had no idea this would blow up into an internationally followed case. I think most of our community thought it would be solved quickly. This sort of thing doesn’t happen around here!

 

[OckhamsRazor22]

RSBM. Yup this is my thinking too.


Older most likely and that still doesn't rule out it being a student. IMO. (I'm not saying you were ruling that out fyi) I think many might be thinking it can't be a student because they're thinking sorority/frat age. There's plenty older students around.

You’ve got a 50% chance of being right. If it isn’t someone known or close to them in some manner, (ie: resides nearby)…then it’s just a stone cold killer who specifically targeted the home to unleash this murderous melee on four unknown persons. It’s rare, but it happens. JMOO.

 

[AngTxGal]

I keep thinking about how many have talked about how unusual this case is, quadruple murder with a knife, three women and a man, not a lot to compare it to, etc. I know this is a stretch, but thinking about the psychology behind it, if the killer were an ego-based thrill killer, is it possible that he designed this to be unusual, something 'incomparable'? Is that even a thing or is it just compulsion? I know it seems like a silly question, but just wondering if anyone knows or has heard of this. NOT saying that this killer is that, this is more a general question re the psychology of it.

One reason I think this case must be unusual is the take of the many experts from detectives to FBI to profilers who have chimed in and given their perspective. The combined experience of all of them together is impressive, and yet they do not agree.
While I understand that their experience is liked to a highly informed gut instinct, some based their thoughts on studies, statistics, and large numbers of cases.
These basic thoughts are still in debate regarding this quadruple murder that is 5 weeks old. I‘m sure some are known by LE, but based on what is known the experts can’t seem to solidly agree.
- male or female
- individual or pair
- known or unknown to victims
- peer student or older
- local or not
- prior experience with violent crimes or not
- hiding in the house or entered after everyone was asleep
- drove or walked to and from
- loner or member of social group

I wonder if crime trends change, and the categories of the past may have never fit very tightly and as enough research is available to apply for understanding- trends change.
So many comparisons have been made to famous killers, and yet society has changed in dramatic ways since these killers were active.
How has social media, expansions of video media outlets, and the web in general changed the information available to criminals? I would assume these info sources have dramatically changed crime.
We know that web based crime is rampant And changes so rapidly that hackers seem to evolve as LE is trying to stay one step ahead to react and attempt to prevent.
Surely it is the same with other types of crime including stalking, predation, and voyeurism.
Platforms for criminals to teach each other have expanded- a budding criminal does not have to be incarcerated to learn- forums are full of how to discussions.

For example in this case- What even does the choice of weapon and wounds mean?
We know the weapon had a sharp blade- it has been described as Rambo or KaBar or fixed blade hunting knife.
Some experts have strongly suggested that the knife and method support that the perp must have access to military gear and military experience. With online shopping and a vast library of how tos- how can this be a strong expectation?
A person could buy online, watch how to videos, practice on a raw chicken.
What is tough for me to walk through is the mental preparation, do video games allow for a mental preparation?
Connect all these pieces together with a motive, unhinged mental illness, and In the past 25+ years we should be seeing new kinds of trained killers- shouldn’t we?

Apologies for the length, I’ve tried to edit gettign sleeping
JMO

 

[AngTxGal]

I keep thinking about how many have talked about how unusual this case is, quadruple murder with a knife, three women and a man, not a lot to compare it to, etc. I know this is a stretch, but thinking about the psychology behind it, if the killer were an ego-based thrill killer, is it possible that he designed this to be unusual, something 'incomparable'? Is that even a thing or is it just compulsion? I know it seems like a silly question, but just wondering if anyone knows or has heard of this. NOT saying that this killer is that, this is more a general question re the psychology of it.

One thing that supports the atypical nature of this case is the take of the many experts. We’ve heard perspectives from cops, detectives, FBI and profilers. The combined experience of all of the experts together is impressive, and yet they do not agree.
Experts chiming in from outside an investigation are using gut instinct based in experience, and also studies, statistics, and large numbers of cases.
With all of the combined experience- it seems odd to me that these basic aspects of this case are still in debate. Today’s experts do not agree with yesterdays.
Who is the killer?
- male or female
- individual or pair
- known or unknown to victims
- peer student or older
- local or not
- prior experience with violent crimes or not
- hiding in the house or entered after everyone was asleep
- drove or walked to and from
- loner or member of social group

Is this because categories of the past may have never fit very tightly and as research is gathered times passes- all the while trends change?
If so any comparisons to famous killers And their categories would not work here.
We know that web based crime is rampant And changes so rapidly that hackers seem to evolve as LE is trying to stay one step ahead to react and attempt to prevent.
Surely it is the same with other types of crime with social media- including stalking, predation, and voyeurism leading to obsession.
A budding criminal does not have to obsess in person and does not have to be incarcerated to learn from other criminals.

What even does the choice of weapon and wounds mean?
Some experts have strongly suggested that the knife and method support that the perp must have access to military gear and military experience. With online shopping and a vast library of how tos- how can this expectation be accurate? Couldn’t a perp buy online, watch how to videos, and practice on a raw chicken. Couldn’t a person train their mental state through video games- like simulations?
Connect all these pieces together with a motive, someone who is mentally unhinged, and In the past 25+ years we should be seeing new kinds of trained killers- shouldn’t we?

So, yes, this perp may not fit into typical categories. Is that by intentional design, or is it a sign of the times that new categories of perps are being developed- like this one?

JMO

 

[OckhamsRazor22]

All I know is that the closer LE gets to the truth…the closer they hold all of the details to the vest. They definitely HAVE something. They need time to develop it sufficiently so it has teeth. They’ll get there. My hats off to them. They have the worst task with this one. If they are determined to “hunt him down” (as I believe them to be), they will find him and arrest him. All good things in time. Jmoo