ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 37

[10ofRods]

@10ofRods, I haven’t been able to go back and read the threads, but I’m interested in whether you believe this crime was committed by a serial killer or someone very close who truly had a score to settle?

I believe there was a score to settle, of those two choices. Today, I'm looking at serial killers a bit, but hardly any of their murders resemble this one. And serial killers come in so many varieties, it's literally crazy.

This, to me, is more like a family annihilation situation (think Chris Watts). The victims were like a little family to each other, all except Ethan having roots in Couer D'Alene and long friendships. Two of the girls were "sisters" in an organization (with each other) and the third is said to have considered another victim as her "chosen sister." This is more like those crimes when a vengeful person decides to kill a group of related people, jointly the object or rage, anger - or panic. I never rule out fear and panic as motivation for murder, as it happens all the time. We see kids killing parents because "I didn't want them to find out about...this or that."

Yet, it has an element of planning and stealth that speaks to a personality type - probably shared with one of the serial killer types (again, they can be schizophrenic like Berkowitz or Jared Loughner or James Holmes; but equally likely to have one or more personality disorder, such as Antisocial - like Ted Bundy). There are other diagnoses and of course, many serial killers never get a formal diagnosis. These are all just currently useful labels in American culture - they simply give us a handle on what another person's mind and behavior might be.

Sadly, most of these killers have unique characteristics and almost all have an incredible ability to blend in well enough, or at least, for a while.

The "score to settle" theory makes sense to me because I believe this particular killer spied on the house, was likely in the house before, knew all of the victims in one way or another, and, perhaps, was motivated by bizarre beliefs such as "these kids have it too good" or "I can't stand people like this." If one of them had actually made an enemy out of this person (narcissistic slight? rejection? mockery? disrespect? gossip? pranking? something more antisocial?), it somehow makes more sense to me. The person chose a quiet night and I believe they knew the weekend behavior of the house's occupants. I believe they were able to get back to their own place/safe space quickly.

I'm willing to consider sociopathic serial killer/random killer on the loose in Moscow, Idaho. Would have left by now, of course. But they were around for a while, they knew the situation.

Of the "score to settle" group, my lunch money bet goes to a student who either missed out on graduating for the past couple of years and is marginally living the university life (increasingly excluded from the doings of younger people as he ages) and someone who is interpersonally aggressive, likely arrogant, into weaponry and the gym, and has thought about or committed crimes such as breaking and entering, stalking, peeping through windows, petty theft, cheating on coursework, etc. Many campus murders are "score to settle," as when grad students kill their dissertation advisors for refusing to accept a dissertation as it stands and requiring more work, etc. We could say that sometimes people have a sense of entitlement?

 

[Seraphim]

Thanks for this. Truly well (written) stated. All points I’ve considered as well. With everything accessible on the internet, all the info is at his fingertips. And yes, I wonder if he is reading about his work online…even here. JMOO.

In todays world the internet is like sonar on a submarine. I’m hopeful any suspicious computer activity might lead LE to the perp!

 

[samanthadaniels1995]

SPREADSHEET or FLOW CHART NEEDED???

snipped for focus. @Txbarfly Agreeing w this ^.

Yes, printing the various possibilities, theories, postulations, hypotheses, and suppositions would take paper the size of a KING SIZED BEDSHEET.
And that's if we omit rumors about a little green man in a Martian flying saucer landing on King Road in the wee hours that morning.

OTOH, the actual LE-confirmed facts, well, they fit on a 3" x 5" INDEX CARD. imo jmo moo

Four uni students fatally stabbed in off-campus house, so bizarre, so sad.

Advanced statistical modeling can create an amazing short list. Cluster analysis, demographic data, can provide an amazing profile. But still, without data, no value toward a conclusion.

 

[detectivewannab]

.

I keep thinking about how many have talked about how unusual this case is, quadruple murder with a knife, three women and a man, not a lot to compare it to, etc. I know this is a stretch, but thinking about the psychology behind it, if the killer were an ego-based thrill killer, is it possible that he designed this to be unusual, something 'incomparable'? Is that even a thing or is it just compulsion? I know it seems like a silly question, but just wondering if anyone knows or has heard of this. NOT saying that this killer is that, this is more a general question re the psychology of it.

I feel this case is very similar to the 1990 Ganesville muders @ The University of Florida.

 

[rsd1200]

<snip for brevity>
But if someone says it to one of us olde peeple, it is very different, for sure.

This is very true. It doesn't bother me much at all, coming from the era, and the crowd I was / am around. Flipping a friend the bird is like waving hello or goodbye these days.

It's sorta become the southern version of Bless Your Heart. It's given with a tone, and an expression, that the receiver understands. If that makes sense.

However, the generation of my parents, and even one prior, do not feel quite the same so I understand where you are coming from. I grew up on the cusp of it being said in a joking nature, or swearing during heated conversations, but not said in public. I do feel the kids were joking around based on body language and the gist of the video footage that I reviewed.

 

[arielilane]

Good to see you over here also.

I agree. There is no perfect crime. The killer always makes a mistake. Or they buy a pair of shoes from Walmart and keep the receipt. LOL. A rush to arrest could lead to a NG verdict and a killer walks.

JMO

Good to see you posting here! Your input is invaluable and insightful.

 

[rsd1200]

If there's no link? Then it's just my own 2¢.

And if there is a link it's somebody else's 2¢.

You got it. I try not to use the term "opinion". JM2 is just an old saying round here. If there's a link, it will be a MSM 2¢

 

[di anna]

I suppose what I am suggesting is that a short distance away from the city center a sparse density community may be found easily. The distance between major cities is long. Modern convenience and the supporting community of the university to the businesses doesn't define the sense of the culture isolated from it's surroundings. A liberal arts university with all the accomodations set within a conservative region.

This article from a previous Alumni and reporter seems to highlight the a less than ideal oasis where murder is not a stranger and how the national press from outside may skew the reality of the situation.

So much that is not known and how we may be influenced by what is shared.

Voices: Why the college town of Moscow, Idaho, is not as peaceful as you think

Murders, disappearances and even mass shootings are part of the legacy of Moscow, Idaho

news.yahoo.com

They have a Military Science program, with a robust enrollment and classes in "Profession of Arms," "Army Physical Fitness I, II, III, IV, V" "Leadership," "Military History," "Ethics."

I assume this is a course of study for the University's ROTC cadets. (Reserve Officer Training Corps, for those who may be from outside the US or unfamiliar with this acronym).

Again, I am not ruling any particular person or group out, in my own quest to understand this crime. And when I say I'd bet my lunch money that it was *not* a ROTC cadet, that means I'm betting about $1 - when I bet the whole farm, it means I think I may be onto something.

Are there not several military training sites and at least a airbase and a navy facility close by?

 

[10ofRods]

Fascinating. And I believe he is most assuredly a planner. Using his careful, concise forethought and knowledge…he proved to be quick, methodical, and accurately deadly. JMOO.

TOTAL SPECULATION AHEAD
Yeah, I picture him getting interested in martial arts, blade weaponry, etc., and thoroughly exploring that. Long hours spent on the internet. Is into gaming as well, probably with role playing combat games - using the same set of weapons he wishes he had in real life, perhaps gradually collecting a few knives or a knife and an ax or bow.

Knife is a prize possession, has watched youtubes on how to use a personal defense knife/human killing knife. May have had a longterm interest in harming non-human animals. Is not a hit with the ladies.

Feels entitled to a girlfriend, doesn't have one right now. May have never had a longterm romantic relationship (brittle relationships), blames others for this. Is obviously misogynistic (others have noticed it in him).

Gets into quarrels, fights, disagreements. Thinks his view is always right. Was rewarded for these behaviors as a child. Parents don't want him at home either. Is living somewhere, perhaps nearly free, because people are afraid to confront him to get him out.

Is likely capable of humor and may mock others. Is smart, above average in intelligence.

Above all, this guy enjoyed acquiring the various elements of his plan. I'm not all the way to "he wore a wetsuit" but I do think he had a kill outfit, with kevlar gloves, and it wouldn't surprise me if this nutcase did have night vision goggles (nutcase is not a professional term). Likely had a backpack with trash bag for clothes just in case, and knew that his strength and speed were up to the task. May have practiced in his room (which is likely not a regular dorm room but perhaps just some space he has found he can inhabit - many universities have these kinds of students lurking about). OTOH, maybe he's still getting financial aid and is in grad school (I think he's slightly older than the undergrad population and looks down on them and thinks they are all easy targets).

If he has left town, it'll be a long time before he can put together the same type of plan, but he will miss his aggro ways and his planning. Right now, he's in escape/hide mode which is likely another challenge that he at least partly enjoys.

He's a high risk suspect, he may prefer death-by-cop or suicide.

 

[samanthadaniels1995]

In todays world the internet is like sonar on a submarine. I’m hopeful any suspicious computer activity might lead LE to the perp!

A review of Moscow police services unit they are proud of their cyber unit.

 

[TIGER0822]

The logical conclusion is that they located the SUV and cleared the occupant(s). But there are other, more complicated possibilities.

JMHO

Thought provoking. It just struck me that a luxury black SUV is the polar opposite description of a 2011-2013 white Hyundai Elantra. There Could have been Multiple vehicles or something.

 

[drmrgrl]

Were there ever any police commentary/reports of blood on the surviving roommate’s door handles where it would show the possibility that the killer could have tried to open their doors or bloody footprints on the first floor that did not match the roommate's or their ‘friends’ they called over before calling the police, or any evidence that the killer went to the first floor? I recall news of the front door being left open for hours with speculation that the killer fled through the front door, but I do not remember reading with that information if blood was found. Also, it seems probable that blood from the second and third floors could have been accidentally tracked to the first floor during the hectic period of trying to get M, K, E, and X to respond.

IMO, I still think the killer washed up in the second floor bathroom

 

[10ofRods]

Are there not several military training sites and at least a airbase and a navy facility close by?

JM2

No clue. I would assume that every place in the US has military training sites and some kind of military facility "close by" although in the American West, sometimes "close" is pretty far away.

I don't think this was done by a military guy, though. Don't actual military people have to have permission to go into town? Maybe not, but I think there's some ongoing connection between the victims and their killer - however slight, the killer interacted with or at least saw the victims over a period time - but that's just me guessing.

OTOH, I would not completely rule out that the person has some kind of military background - I'm not ruling anything out, because I don't have the evidence that LE has. But I imagine they've been down most of these paths and systematically narrowed the field. I truly feel they know who it is (or have two or more POI's, and have talked to each of them - possibly with both of them pointing fingers at the others). That would make things harder when it comes to an arrest warrant, but it certainly makes it easier to solve the overall crime.

Because if there's one thing this unsub will do, it's lie and point convincingly to someone else (convincing in the moment, anyway).

IMO

 

[Hexe]

And some people have to really think about where the liver is (half of my students guess the wrong side in their first quiz - which means everyone is likely guessing). My students (mostly freshmen and sophomores, basic human biology class) also do not know what the liver does or why it might be lethal to have severe damage to it. My class is a prereq for the forensic sequence, if you're wondering why we're taking that approach (it''s also important in paleoanthropology as we try to ascertain causes of death in the past as well). Kind of a niche knowledge to have, IMO.

A good portion of the liver is located in the area of upper torso, right under the diaphragm. Someone aiming at the heart and trying to avoid the breastbone could easily end up stabbing the liver accidentally. And if you hit the upper torso, you will hit a lung sooner or later (but rather sooner). It's hard to say what the perp was aiming for or how good he knew the anatomy with what little we know about the injuries sustained by the victims.

 

[drmrgrl]

IMO; Speculation

After Mr and Mrs G talked about K's wounds, I disagree only a little. It doesn't take much anatomical knowledge to google "how to stab someone to death" and see the 7 part short article that gives instruction on how to kill quickly, how to kill quietly, how to kill without hitting bone, etc. Also, those tactics are taught in knife classes and in some branches of the military.

Striking the chest area directly is a bad idea and sometimes breaks knives, certainly makes the killer more tired, takes longer and doesn't use the value of momentum and weight leverage that makes a long fixed blade knife so effective.

According to Mr and Mrs G, the killer struck at and basically destroyed K's liver, and her lungs. You can do that without the difficulties posed by trying to strike the chest/heart. Some online articles recommend 2 stabs (each lung) and then the liver (which causes massive and rapid bleed-out, but not as much arterial blood spurt). The deflation of the lungs means the person can't make a sound. Silent and rapid and much less energy if you're going to kill 4 people. Also, this method can work for a smaller person too. There's more to it, but I've written it before and am beginning to feel that I probably shouldn't.

I am taking the view that each of the victims was killed in much the same way, although obviously, much could have occurred between the killer and each victim to change the basic plan.

This is not specialized anatomical knowledge at all, but it may be knowledge that the average person doesn't have.

IMO, from this, I came to the conclusion that whoever killed KG didn’t like her vaping or her drinking.

 

[TooMuchGun]

did Moscow pd just release updates for 12-22 and 12-24 today? Neither told us anything so not sure why they updated at all

 

[10ofRods]

IMO, I still think the killer washed up in the second floor bathroom

Oh, I hope so! And that they took the drains from all the bathrooms for analysis - because recent DNA in the drain would be awesome.

A good portion of the liver is located in the area of upper torso, right under the diaphragm. Someone aiming at the heart and trying to avoid the breastbone could easily end up stabbing the liver accidentally. And if you hit the upper torso, you will hit a lung sooner or later (but rather sooner). It's hard to say what the perp was aiming for or how good he knew the anatomy with what little we know about the injuries sustained by the victims.

Yep. But, my point is that the internet instructions on how to kill humans specifically mention the liver - which is an appropriate target for a kill. You don't need to hit the upper portion of the liver, just damage the lower part of the organ. True that it could have been accidentally, but I'm still going with the knife being used in its "official" position (held like a saber and not in the grip one would use for rapid stabbing).

It's IMPOSSIBLE to say how well the killer knew anatomy or what he was aiming for at this point in time. All we have are the statements of one victim's parents to go off of.

We are all spitballing here and everything in this post is opinion.

However, no word that a heart was pierced from the parents.

Idaho murders: Father of slain victim says she had 'big open wounds,' calls police 'cowards'

Slain Idaho college student Kaylee Goncalves' father exclusively told Fox News Digital that the victims had "big open gouges" that were made by a "sadistic male."

autos.yahoo.com

Big open wounds, says the father. (Not puncture-like stabs). From the article:

//Steven Goncalves said he asked the coroner, Cathy Mabbutt, how many times the victims were stabbed.
"She says, sir, I don't think stabs is the right word, it was like tears, like this was a strong weapon, not like a stab."//

 

[layer]

A rush to arrest could lead to a NG verdict and a killer walks.

Or even worse, an innocent man gets convicted and the killer skates away, without any further scrutiny.

 

[FlamingoLady]

JM2

No clue. I would assume that every place in the US has military training sites and some kind of military facility "close by" although in the American West, sometimes "close" is pretty far away.

I don't think this was done by a military guy, though. Don't actual military people have to have permission to go into town? Maybe not, but I think there's some ongoing connection between the victims and their killer - however slight, the killer interacted with or at least saw the victims over a period time - but that's just me guessing.

OTOH, I would not completely rule out that the person has some kind of military background - I'm not ruling anything out, because I don't have the evidence that LE has. But I imagine they've been down most of these paths and systematically narrowed the field. I truly feel they know who it is (or have two or more POI's, and have talked to each of them - possibly with both of them pointing fingers at the others). That would make things harder when it comes to an arrest warrant, but it certainly makes it easier to solve the overall crime.

Because if there's one thing this unsub will do, it's lie and point convincingly to someone else (convincing in the moment, anyway).

IMO

Idaho Military Bases | One Base | MilitaryBases.com " There’s just one military base in Idaho. It’s an Air Force base in Elmore, in the southwest" And, no, military personnel do not need permission to go into town unless they are in the initial phase of training (ie: basic training) Actually, military personnel often live right in the community/neighborhoods surrounding the base they are stationed at. The vast majority of military personnel "go to work" just like everyone else. It just happens that they work on a military base.

 

[layer]

IMO, I still think the killer washed up in the second floor bathroom

I think he just did his business and slinked away into the night.