ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 38

[XtremeScorpio]

Struggling to keep up with the thread but is there still no reward for information? I find that so odd!

No reward has been offered. That makes sense to me though. Why would one be offered if LE don't have all facts (i.e. DNA results, etc) and exhausted all leads yet?

I also don't think they've narrowed enough down to know exactly which direction to head, though I could be wrong and that's something they're just not letting be known yet.

 

[NuttMegg]

Help me out here.
A was clearly referring to the series of calls between 2:30 and 2:58 am the morning of the murders. Which calls were SG referring to?

I think the father was referring to one of the last messages she sent, meant literally. He was not saying that one of the last messages she sent while she was home with us, and then there were other "!ast" messages at the last before she died. I can see how others have different opinions. But that's mine.

Meanwhile the mother or sister was referring to K trying to get a hold of him while she was home. Which makes sense now that we know they were just breaking up, or had just broken up. But one of them, iirc the mother/sister (sorry I just can't read that again) said "she wanted him to come over", para. While I thought only kG was gone from school and at home, but not necessarily other students were home where she was. So without sleuthing anyone, I don't know if the mother/sister was referring to the guy coming over to K's parents's home, or if she was referring to the guy coming over to K's Moscow home. Imo she was referring to coming over to the nearby Moscow home. Another of the last calls.

 

[10ofRods]

Not necessarily directed right at you.

But "meat prep" is no where close to murder. In my mind, comparing the 2 almost reeks of cannibalism.

I remember a case about 6 years ago where much ado was made about a nearby slaughterhouse. When the perp was recently arrested, not even close.

Maybe our non criminal brains struggle to see how someone can possibly slaughter other people so we turn to hunters, outdoorsman, slaughterhouses, butchers, etc. Which actually tells me education is lacking in certain areas.

All JMO

Couldn't agree more. Which is, of course, why I am so interested in both the cultural context and the minds of criminals. Unless a person has a developmental delay or neurocognitive problem, an adult human knows more or less what's right and wrong, That's why criminals hide their doings.

But they do it anyway and have been under study and categorized in various ways since ancient times - although frankly, most of our modern views arise in the 1800's, when serial killing was first recognized. Theories on crime up until then were often religious (Devil/demons made 'em do it) or economic (Poor people/debtors commit the most crime). There wasn't even a notion of the unconscious (not in our modern sense). That was first written about in the late 19th/early 20th century by people like Dr. Bleuler (one of Freud's mentors). The notion of the illness called schizophrenia was first put forward systematically in that period, mostly by Bleuler. It hasn't changed that much since then, although our cultural views of mental illness began to change with the work of those early psychiatrists/psychoanalysts (and the occasional anthropologist - like Malinowski, because it cannot be the case that only Europeans and Americans possess a basic human psyche - even though, of course, that racist notion was very much around at the time).

No amount of hunting or exposure to animal slaying is going to create, by itself, serial killers or mass murderers. Indeed, if anyone can think of a serial killer or mass murderer who was also an actual outdoorsman or hunter, I would put it on my list (there must at least be a couple - WSers collectively know the details of SO many crimes).

The primary hypothesis about the rise of serial killer is anonymity and the restructuring of human society in completely new ways (as compared to any century before the 19th). People can live undetected and unseen. People don't live lifelong with their parents or with a small family group who pretty much knows every piece of clothing they have and every move they make. Mass murder is perhaps more complex.

This particular crime is not fitting well into any categories of murder typically used in the academic OR popular literature. IMO.

 

[Megnut]

Showing my tremendous grasp of the obvious, I think LE really wants photos from that night. Young adults inadvertantly archive everything! Wealth of digital evidence! LE isn't going to ask for specifics because that would be too revealing but IMO they are looking to piece together a timeline and attendance and are specifically looking for photos of what's not in them.

Who was there, who left and when.

Alibi-busters.

JMO

 

[layer]

10ofRods, since the killer used a knife, stabbing 4 victims multiple times, it certainly is possible the killer cut himself along the say, even if just a small cut. If his blood mingled with the victims, perhaps on the bed sheets or even on their bodies, how is that different blood/dna identified, separated and the different DNA identified? How long would that process take?

I'm not 10ofRods, obviously, but our best hope is that the killer's DNA can be found apart from any mixtures. There are real problems with DNA mixtures.

The fact that a suspect's alleles appear in a mixture doesn't mean that person contributed to it. The alleles may have come from some combination of other people who, between them, have all the allele types in the suspect’s profile.

You can read more about this, and a rather interesting alphabet soup analogy, here.

 

[10ofRods]

10ofRods, since the killer used a knife, stabbing 4 victims multiple times, it certainly is possible the killer cut himself along the say, even if just a small cut. If his blood mingled with the victims, perhaps on the bed sheets or even on their bodies, how is that different blood/dna identified, separated and the different DNA identified? How long would that process take?

I sure hope he did. YES, it would make it way easier, because blood contains more than one kind of cell, plus a fluid barrier to protect those cells, so once the blood has dripped out of the killer and onto something else (including other blood - but SO much easier if there's a drop or two on the floor or bed), the cells each contain the full complement of his DNA. Dead skin cells that flake off do not have this robust character.

So if they have that (and I hope they do - they surely might), then they would certainly have had it sequenced by now.

That's why the first process is not direct DNA analysis, but analysis of the entire forensic sample, eg, a vial of blood cells - and there should be many full complements of cellular (somatic) DNA. All of the ones from a victim will contain identical DNA (theirs) and the stranger DNA will be quite different. Even just one Y chromosome from the killer will stand out from E's Y chromosome and of course, the young women have no Y chromosome. A broken Y chromosome (it's pretty small as chromosomes go) would be of less use and need more work (but people do that, they are highly trained experts and not usually attached to any one state level laboratory).

If they had that single drop of blood (or one hair with a follicle - which I doubt, killer probably has a shaved head AND wore a hat), they could know so much and it would be very difficult to argue away at trial.

 

[chrism23]

ADMIN NOTE:

Folks, it is only member speculation that these killings could be the work of a serial killer.

Please leave Bundy and the rest of that mottley crew out of this discussion until/unless LE indicates there could be a SK at work here.

Thank you.

Leaving the all the controversy behind, there is one question about this case that has puzzled me from the beginning that I have not seen addressed. Simply, how can someone murder 4 people with a knife without a scream, a shout, any sort of warning let alone a struggle of some sort. At first glance this seems impossible.

 

[10ofRods]

I'm not 10ofRods, obviously, but our best hope is that the killer's DNA can be found apart from any mixtures. There are real problems with DNA mixtures.

The fact that a suspect's alleles appear in a mixture doesn't mean that person contributed to it. The alleles may have come from some combination of other people who, between them, have all the allele types in the suspect’s profile.

You can read more about this, and a rather interesting alphabet soup analogy, here.

Absolutely outstanding summary, Layer. And first, we'd have to know the suspect's alleles - deciding some alleles belong to a suspect is tricky. Even that would be a start, but explaining it to a jury, I'm not so sure. Further, the alleles tested would have to be absent in the victims.

But all of us share about 99.9% of our alleles. The identification of individuals lies in a very small number of well-studied markers (SNP's) in the DNA. The investigators would be looking for a needle in a haystack with transfer/touch DNA in this circumstance - finding anything in the immediate crime scene that is a complete chromosome (just one!) would really help. Very hard to find.

 

[layer]

I think the father was referring to one of the last messages she sent, meant literally. He was not saying that one of the last messages she sent while she was home with us, and then there were other "!ast" messages at the last before she died. I can see how others have different opinions. But that's mine.

Meanwhile the mother or sister was referring to K trying to get a hold of him while she was home. Which makes sense now that we know they were just breaking up, or had just broken up. But one of them, iirc the mother/sister (sorry I just can't read that again) said "she wanted him to come over", para. While I thought only kG was gone from school and at home, but not necessarily other students were home where she was. So without sleuthing anyone, I don't know if the mother/sister was referring to the guy coming over to K's parents's home, or if she was referring to the guy coming over to K's Moscow home. Imo she was referring to coming over to the nearby Moscow home. Another of the last calls.

If you read that brief transcript I posted, A and K's mom were answering the NBC reporter's question about the final series of calls K made, between 2:30 and 2:58 am on Nov 13th. Exactly what K's dad was referring to is much more ambiguous.

Having said that, there are a couple of reasons to believe that SG was also talking about that same last series of calls.

 

[jjleroche]

IMO, yes, I think there is guilt present in the killer. This was manifested by getting rid of the vehicle or trying to hide it. He knew what he did was wrong. That’s my take IMO

IMO getting rid of, or trying to hide the car was motivated by self-protection rather than guilt

 

[Bliss_Perth]

Would you be able to provide with a link that states Ethan’s mom said girls on the first floor heard loud male voices? I have been following this case since the beginning and I don’t recall reading this. I know you mentioned an article but I would appreciate the link please

https://www.idahostatesman.com/news/local/crime/article268898017.html

 

[PrairieWind]

I sure hope he did. YES, it would make it way easier, because blood contains more than one kind of cell, plus a fluid barrier to protect those cells, so once the blood has dripped out of the killer and onto something else (including other blood - but SO much easier if there's a drop or two on the floor or bed), the cells each contain the full complement of his DNA. Dead skin cells that flake off do not have this robust character.

So if they have that (and I hope they do - they surely might), then they would certainly have had it sequenced by now.

That's why the first process is not direct DNA analysis, but analysis of the entire forensic sample, eg, a vial of blood cells - and there should be many full complements of cellular (somatic) DNA. All of the ones from a victim will contain identical DNA (theirs) and the stranger DNA will be quite different. Even just one Y chromosome from the killer will stand out from E's Y chromosome and of course, the young women have no Y chromosome. A broken Y chromosome (it's pretty small as chromosomes go) would be of less use and need more work (but people do that, they are highly trained experts and not usually attached to any one state level laboratory).

If they had that single drop of blood (or one hair with a follicle - which I doubt, killer probably has a shaved head AND wore a hat), they could know so much and it would be very difficult to argue away at trial.

I guess my question is more about procedure. If you have a very blood scene, which this must have been, blood pool under and around the victims, and then spatter around, a few drops of which are the killers. How is the killers identified? I can't imagine each drop of blood spatter is individually tested. If it is mixed in a pool of blood, can it be separated and identified? How does that work.

 

[SMK777]

It may have been, but I believe otherwise, as the sister, who claimed to have access to the account, never mentioned texts when she spoke of the several calls made by Kaylee and Maddie, shortly before the murders. I interpreted her father's statement about one the last texts as perhaps happened a day or two earlier. Again, none of us knows, and I could well be wrong, so please do not take my thoughts on them as fact.

Ok, but you actually may be right. I tried to locate any mainstream media article that would confirm the text about sharing a dog, and I was unable to find a single one.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

'Part of the timeline that they are looking for more information on is retracing the steps of Ethan Chapin and Xana Kernodle.

Originally, they were believed to have been at the party for about an hour.

"we're still building that picture, building that timeline,” Captain Dahlinger said.

Captain Dahlinger says the information that the couple was at the Sigma Chi fraternity party the entire night until they returned to the King Road home at 1:45 a.m. is unofficial information and not confirmed by Moscow Police.

"We haven't officially come out and said anything solid on that particular timeframe,” Captain Dahlinger said.'

BBM. Interesting they're 'still building that timeline.' 6 weeks later.

MPD has not confirmed couple's timeline before returning home

It is completely possible that E&X were at the home during that time with friends until shortly before the two 1st floor girls returned. That could be why police cannot nail down a timeline on them. And why they are asking for videos, pics ect and people to come forward who may have been there during that time.

I wonder if the 1st floor girls actually saw E&X when they supposedly returned home at 1:45 am. Where did they get that time? We know the 1:00am came from the surviving girls as their arrival time at the home. The 1:56 time for K&M was from a ring door camera and the driver. But who gave them a 1:45 arrival time for E&X or from what source did it come from?

JMO

 

[hopewell]

The first round of forensic testing is usually the separation of gathered evidence into various categories (primarily organic vs inorganic) in preparation for DNA tests.

Incomplete DNA samples (possibly including swabs from door jambs, door knobs, etc - although I think this killer wore gloves) take much longer to identify, separate, process, study and, if possible, reunite into a more complete/usable DNA profile.

I have posted the times for expedited DNA study in Idaho (ISP labs) several times (45-60 days - RUSH). And the first process (initial forensic sample testing) is also 45-60 days.

Naturally, if you have an actual body and blood for the body, a mobile DNA unit can process such a clearcut sample in a short period of time (less than an hour if they want to). However, all that does is give you each of victims' DNA maps. This is necessary to look for stranger DNA, but I believe that there was tons of non-victim DNA in that house (DNA persists a very long time, withstands hot water, cleaning agents, even bleach, etc, etc)

I do not think DNA is going to help much in solving this crime unless they already have a suspect or suspects in mind. And even then, it will just be internal confirmation of the rest of the investigation, because unless the killer(s) spit on the victims or cut themselves and left blood drops, their skin cell/partial DNA will be tiny and even if admixed with victim blood, there's probably also *other* non-victim trace DNA in the same blood samples (from the floor).

DNA persists on people's clothing. It gets transferred.

DNA from workers in China shows up transferred to other clothing by washing machines.

If the perp has ever been in the house (and since the house was unsupervised and caught on LE camera being unsupervised with non-residents galore inside the house on Sept 1 - and probably Sept 2 as well), they can say there is an innocent reason for their DNA to be among the profiles of several other profiles.

And, btw, except for *very* broad pictures painted (mostly) by Y chromosome analysis, there is no way to use a partial sample (or even a full sample) to fully assess "race" (whatever that is), but just general ancestry. Fun fact: Australian aborigines, isolated from any other continent for 40,000 years, are closest in genome to ethnic Chinese - who appeared in China around 6000 years ago). Does this mean Aborigines colonized China? Nope. There were hundreds of tribal groups bearing the same markers all over Asia at the time, many of the groups now extinct/absorbed by other populations. And so, the "ethnic" markers of the Chinese cannot distinguish a Chinese person from many Australian aborigines or some other Melanesians.

OTOH, LE may wait for the results to get back and reassess. If they learn (as I'm sure they are aware) that the stranger DNA results are entirely inconclusive and would require vast genetic genealogy (with weak DNA reconstructions), they may strategize and file an arrest affidavit without even using the DNA - or, if there's weak evidence about one person, they'd add that in last and not emphasize it.

I think they have a good idea about who this *might* be, and this person has to be handled very carefully. I would wager more than my lunch money that said person is living on the down-low right now (my lunch money is about $1). If I had to guess, I'd say he's still on campus. I have theories about his lifestyle, but they are based only on the examples of now-incarcerated students who have acted out on various campuses, mostly in my own neck of the woods. I believe LE is keeping an eye on this person or persons.

Yeah, I think any DNA results that stem from this will only be used to rule out folks, unfortunately (fortunately for them, of course). Unless it is a good sample, and the killer is in the database or has already volunteered his for testing, it is doubtful that it will lead to an actual perpetrator. I think that's why they released the car information to the public, because that will get them onto someone far quicker.

I wish I shared your's and many others' optimism that this is someone on or near campus, but the car still being unidentified at this stage in the investigation, and the assumed fact that a car was used in the get away at all, has me quite doubtful that it was anyone in the general region. Hope so for a quick resolution, but am not confident in those theories at all.

My opinion.

 

[NuttMegg]

View attachment 390423

https://www.idahostatesman.com/news/local/crime/article268898017.html

Weird that EC's mother would know that, which means to me that parents of all 6 victims/unharmed girls know it too. But I do recall from the first someone saying that the unharmed girls "heard something but thought it was a party". That's just what I remember. I hope someone will post any other reference to something being heard.

Imo

 

[3FrenchHens]

Showing my tremendous grasp of the obvious, I think LE really wants photos from that night. Young adults inadvertantly archive everything! Wealth of digital evidence! LE isn't going to ask for specifics because that would be too revealing but IMO they are looking to piece together a timeline and attendance and are specifically looking for photos of what's not in them.

Who was there, who left and when.

Alibi-busters.

JMO

Disclaimer: All in My Opinion Only

Have read nearly every post in this forum, and posted a few times, re: greek-life factor/secrecy and a simple scenario. Not much response. Maybe the rationale seemed vague or too simple. JMO

Both were invitations to try Inductive reasoning.

• The theories across the threads appear based on Deductive reasoning, taking apart the big picture; e.g. discussions about weapon, personalities, the dog, the late phone calls
• Looking at the crime with Inductive reasoning, the effort is to map the small pieces into a picture; e.g. how many possible sources of the knife (not its type)
• These are opposite approaches, not opposing views. They are complimentary, thus making everyone’s opinion valuable

There are not many big details, but certainly many small details. LE, FBI, BAU are looking but cannot, should not, reveal them; hence the request for any details from anyone else that could have something to see that is not the actual focus of the image or activity. Whether from a car or social media.

Approaching like a Logic Puzzle or exponential Clue game, and adding the element of “Why?”

Curious if anyone else is interested in this approach.
There are many details to consider mapping.
All IMOO. IMHO.

Link is for 'Difference between Inductive and Deductive' reasoning, face validity, survey questions. This is more experimentally explained, but the definitions are fairly universal, IMO. IMOO.

What's the difference between inductive and deductive reasoning? (scribbr.com)

 

[RAISINISBACK]

So you think LE are deliberately lying by saying they have no suspect? Why are you so confident about this? It sounds more like wishful thinking…

LE is allowed to lie to anyone during an investigation, especially media. They could be saying no suspect to lull the fears of a suspect they do in fact have so he won't bolt or destroy evidence.

JMO

 

[Snoop Sister]

If you read that brief transcript I posted, A and K's mom were answering the NBC reporter's question about the final series of calls K made, between 2:30 and 2:58 am on Nov 13th. Exactly what K's dad was referring to is much more ambiguous.

Having said that, there are a couple of reasons to believe that SG was also talking about that same last series of calls.

Exactly! And, this was discussed in several posts in the first few pages of this case. I don’t get how things are getting all switched around

 

[RAISINISBACK]

Weird that EC's mother would know that, which means to me that parents of all 6 victims/unharmed girls know it too. But I do recall from the first someone saying that the unharmed girls "heard something but thought it was a party". That's just what I remember. I hope someone will post any other reference to something being heard.

Imo

I remember that being said in MSM also. I too am hoping someone kept the link to it.

JMO