ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #11

[Morag]

I would be interested in knowing when the campers went to bed on Thursday evening. As a fairly frequent camper (in the past), it's been my experience that bedtime is usually fairly early. Once it's dark, beyond a little sitting around the campfire, there's nothing to do, so you go to bed. Were GGP and IR already tucked in for the night when the others arrived? (rhetorical question, of course)

 

[jessie]

I would be interested in knowing when the campers went to bed on Thursday evening. As a fairly frequent camper (in the past), it's been my experience that bedtime is usually fairly early. Once it's dark, beyond a little sitting around the campfire, there's nothing to do, so you go to bed. Were GGP and IR already tucked in for the night when the others arrived? (rhetorical question, of course)

Just for my own curiosity Morag (lovely Welsh name BTW) what sort of time would be sunset and sunrise in that area that time of year?

 

[kammiemc]

Just for my own curiosity Morag (lovely Welsh name BTW) what sort of time would be sunset and sunrise in that area that time of year?

I agree on the name!
Sunset would have been right about when they said they arrived.


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[ILOKAL]

Maybe they think that after two weeks, there would probably not be anything left to find. A toddler is so small, they knew that wolves and bears and other animals were in the area (in the interview the Sheriff said that wolves and bears passed through the campsite as they were searching), and there probably isn't anything at all left of Deorr if he died in the woods.
And there was certainly a 0% chance of finding him *alive* in the woods after two weeks. Maybe they didn't think there was any point in going on searching forever, searching the same area over and over and over again, and using up all of their time and money looking for a needle in a haystack.

Thank you for your reply and perhaps I wasn't clear. Ten days after Deorr disappeared the sheriff had not, according to his statement, ruled anything out. I don't believe there had been any additional searches AFTER that time that MIGHT have caused him to change his mind (as you have suggested). Yet, he did, in fact, CHANGE his mind two weeks later and said he had ruled those very things out that two weeks prior he thought were valid. With no more searches after the 20th he had no additional information about what was or wasn't in the forest, yet he ruled everything pertaining TO the forest PLUS an abduction OUT! So in reality, it appears as though he had ALREADY ruled everything OUT on the 20th yet didn't say so. Was he trying to mislead, and if so, why?

 

[ILOKAL]

He did, but that was after the PI said Jessica had told him about it. JM, DK, nor LE ever mentioned it until the PI began volunteering his services to the family.

I realize that, but I don't think we know nor did the sheriff indicate WHO had provided him with that information and when. Perhaps JM or DK told him that as early as July 10th.

 

[TheTruthWillOut]

Sunset time for July 9th in Leadore was 9:19 PM. http://sunrise-sunset.org/calendar?...t=44.6802005&lon=-113.358091&location=Leadore

 

[neesaki]

You bring up an interesting point. As tragic and difficult as it must be, I imagine that there is a time that every official search is eventually called off. (When absolutely nothing can be found.) But I have no idea how long they normally go on. Out of curiosity I will try to check it out. Later!


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The official search for Dennis Martin went on from the day he went missing which was June 14, 1969 to September 11, 1969, about three months.

[video=youtube;44-kyNWHei4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44-kyNWHei4[/video]

 

[kammiemc]

The official search for Dennis Martin went on from the day he went missing which was June 14, 1969 to September 11, 1969, about three months.

[video=youtube;44-kyNWHei4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44-kyNWHei4[/video]

THX. I will watch the video. I found this article, but it seems to imply that the official search was called off after two weeks. Was the three months of searching done by unofficial/private? Sorry in advance if it clarifies in the video!

Here is a snip from the article:

For two weeks the active search dragged on. At one point 71 Green Berets were engaged, living in the mountains, eating rattlesnakes they came upon in their fruitless search for Dennis.

A park spokesman at one point, no doubt in a moment he later wished he could erase, practically promised that the boy would be found: “He may be a little bit the worse for wear after being out in the open so long, but I’m confident we’ll find him.”

Park Service officials finally had to admit it was fruitless to continue the hunt after crews intensively covered nearly 60 square miles of the park’s backcountry. The boy’s family, refusing to believe the boy died in the mountains, offered a $5,000 reward for information leading to his whereabouts. It went unclaimed.

http://www.nationalparkstraveler.com/2009/06/unresolved-search-and-rescue-cases-are-scattered-throughout-national-parks

 

[desert-blue]

Here is a view from Google Earth - maybe this will help in seeing how the campground is situated in relation to the reservoir? Where they were camping is below the reservoir. I think the news reported that Deorr would have to walk .4 mile up the hill to get to the reservoir from the campground.

 

[ILOKAL]

The official search for Kurt Newton lasted 15 days after the Governor of Main intervened to extend the search for two additional days.

http://www.yankeemagazine.com/article/features/mysteries/vanished/3

 

[neesaki]

This is an early article, but I could have sworn they brought in the search dogs the first day or so. But here it states it was four days. If that's the case it's no wonder they couldn't find a scent to trail. Is this wrong, anyone know? Also, was the State Police not brought into the investigation? I would have thought so, especially since the sheriff stated himself more than once, how his office was overwhelmed and they have limited staff and resources. The more I look and think about it... :banghead:

http://www.ktvb.com/story/news/local/idaho/2015/07/14/search-deorr-kunz-lemhi-county/30162615/

 

[ILOKAL]

This is an early article, but I could have sworn they brought in the search dogs the first day or so. But here it states it was four days. If that's the case it's no wonder they couldn't find a scent to trail. Is this wrong, anyone know? Also, was the State Police not brought into the investigation? I would have thought so, especially since the sheriff stated himself more than once, how his office was overwhelmed and they have limited staff and resources. The more I look and think about it... :banghead:

http://www.ktvb.com/story/news/local/idaho/2015/07/14/search-deorr-kunz-lemhi-county/30162615/

Neesaki, it's really quite amazing and a bit OT, but I JUST finished thinking and then researching the same thing. I wondered if Idaho had its own investigative agency so googled to find out. In Idaho it comes under the Idaho State Police. They have their own detectives and investigate major crimes and drugs (meth and marijuana). I don't recall that agency being mentioned.

And yes, the sheriff brought in HIS search dog and one from another county the first day. I'm not sure if that would have been on the 10th or 11th. Those were the dogs he referred to when he stated Deorr should have been found the first day IF he was there. IMO

So, did the sheriff pretty much eliminate lost, animal attack and drowning after the very first day? Sounds like he did.

Did he then and does he now pretty much eliminate abduction? Yes he did and still does.

 

[Dee10]

I'm not sure how much the Idaho State Police are involved but they are taking tips.

"Bonneville County Sheriff Paul Wilde and Lemhi County Chief Deputy Steve Penner want to make sure all tips regarding the case are directed to the Idaho State Police Fusion Center.

http://www.localnews8.com/news/searchers-encourage-tips-be-directed-to-law-enforcement/35332252

 

[TheTruthWillOut]

IIRC the Sheriff stated in the EIN interview that he took his tracking dog and one from Salmon SAR to the campground. I assume he and Salmon SAR were present on day 1?

The article states LE started over and brought in external (I assume) K9 units. Could these have been "better" more specialist dogs and possibly cadaver versus tracking?

 

[desert-blue]

I took a couple of screenshots because I thought the pics showed the topography and vegetation around the campground... You can see the "bowl" shape of the area and also the amount of forest vs. sagebrush/grassland.

Looking NE from above Stone Reservoir (looking towards the town of Leadore):



Looking SW (as if you were in Leadore looking towards Stone Reservoir):

 

[ILOKAL]

I'm not sure how much the Idaho State Police are involved but they are taking tips.

"Bonneville County Sheriff Paul Wilde and Lemhi County Chief Deputy Steve Penner want to make sure all tips regarding the case are directed to the Idaho State Police Fusion Center.

http://www.localnews8.com/news/searchers-encourage-tips-be-directed-to-law-enforcement/35332252

I believe ClaireC said that is the tip line that is generally used. Other than the Fusion Center taking tips, I don't recall any involvement by the Idaho State Police Detectives which is comparable to other states' Bureau of Investigation.

However, since little Deorr went missing on federal land, does that mean the US government has jurisdiction? Would the FBI have been involved even if its assistance wasn't requested?

 

[Cardinal47]

If the FBI is investigating this as an abduction, that would certainly make the sheriff's previous statements ruling out abduction seem foolish and premature. Presumably, while he may not know every detail of the FBI's investigation, I would think the sheriff would know the general direction it is taking. Yet, he still maintains there is little to no chance that Deorr was abducted. Therefore, it's my opinion that the FBI is not investigating his disappearance as an abduction (at least a total stranger abduction).

About the sheriff. When I first listened to his interview (with NE), I had serious doubts. When he chuckled and said he didn't know if Leadore had any cameras (I'm paraphrasing here), I cringed. He also said he didn't know if the Stage Stop had a camera. Either he was lying or incompetent. If he truly had not looked into whether there were any cameras in Leadore, he was not doing his job (now maybe he had a deputy look into it, but still he is the head honcho and should know). If he (or his department) had looked into it, he would be well aware of the answer to that question (yes or no) and he chose to lie, saying he did not know. I think he is reluctant to release much of anything to do with this case, even lying a little bit to keep things under wraps. I am hopeful that he is competent and knows a lot more than what he saying. Otherwise, I am afraid this will end up as a cold case, unless the FBI has been able to dig deeper. MOO.

Well my response to that would be 'read my earlier post'. This sheriff is quite clever in his answers.

When he said "When he chuckled and said he didn't know if Leadore had any cameras " he could very well explain it by saying 'if they put one in today, I don't know'.

Or he could talk about hidden cameras.

That's how he gets us! Personally I think he's fooling with us and not going to give anything up.

MOO

 

[Eileen730]

Well my response to that would be 'read my earlier post'. This sheriff is quite clever in his answers.

When he said "When he chuckled and said he didn't know if Leadore had any cameras " he could very well explain it by saying 'if they put one in today, I don't know'.

Or he could talk about hidden cameras.

That's how he gets us! Personally I think he's fooling with us and not going to give anything up.

MOO

I agree I think know he knows alot more.than he is saying.

 

[Cardinal47]

You bring up an interesting point. As tragic and difficult as it must be, I imagine that there is a time that every official search is eventually called off. (When absolutely nothing can be found.) But I have no idea how long they normally go on. Out of curiosity I will try to check it out. Later!


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I am still confused by the 'no search'.

Even if DeOrr was eaten by Mountain Lions or Bears there would be some trace.

Drag marks, blood, bones, boots or clothes. Something to tell the tale of what might have happened to this child.

But not a trace and nobody allowed to look for those clues.

I am reminded of Dylan Redwine and Hailey Dunn. Both had remains found out in the woods.

Not by searchers who BTW searched forever but by lonely hunters or a person walking their dog.

So my hope is that if there is anything at all hunting season is starting.

Seems like we expect hunters and walkers to find the remains of our lost ones and prison inmates to seek justice for heinous acts against loved ones.

Sigh...

Moo

 

[Rayemonde]

The sheriff did say that the cadaver dogs had been distracted by the cremains in the reservoir. Maybe that's why they didn't find a body.