ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #11

[ReadySet]

Thank you.

We can't pick and choose how and when to apply The Constitution. We have a legal system in this county and EVERYONE is innocent until PROVEN guilty. There really are no exceptions and that's for your protection and mine. And just to be clear, we really aren't discussing technicalities. Hope you understand why.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[Deleted member 718]

That's it, thanks much gliving.

You're welcome. Note that article from LE was from July 13. Here is another LE statement this time from July 20. In it's entirety as it's an official statement.

"From: Lemhi County Sheriff Lynn Bowerman and Chief Deputy Steve Penner 7-20-15

The Lemhi County Sheriff’s Office is officially scaling back an intensive and exhaustive search of the Timber Creek/Stone Reservoir area, southwest of Leadore, for the missing two year old boy, DeOrr Kunz.

<modsnip>

http://lmshumate.com/article.php?article_id=3258

 

[giagreen]

Now that everyone wants to throw rotten tomatoes at me for my criticism of LE in this case.. i do want to ask a question. Many of you have followed far more missing children cases that i have. In how many have LE been this vague, this dismissive of every theory and this uncommunicative? If you can think of any, did you think LE was just being "careful"? Was the case ever solved? I would appreciate your input. I just want to add that IMO, LE, when we discuss this case, has been given more benefits of the doubt than the 4 POI have.

Anything i write is just my opinion.

I seen a case two years ago where someone who was staying with the parents really did take their baby when they were sleeping.
An Amber alert was not issued. FBI was involved. Never heard from LE if in fact this kidnapper was real or not. I never heard of the suspect till an aresst was made. And a lot of people bashed those poor parents till the very moment that perp was arrested. Even then people still had to point out what they felt it was that made them so much worse of parents then them selfs. That baby was found alive.

 

[ReadySet]

Back to the campground. It is helpful for me to have visuals when thinking about the case.
Here is a video of Stone Reservoir at the campground. I've seen it before so maybe it's already been posted here?
If you don't like the Bee Gees, make sure you mute the sound

[video=youtube;mEk7Fe-GzDo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEk7Fe-GzDo[/video]

 

[kammiemc]

Yes, that. LE doesn't believe it's an abduction, by human OR animal. Oh, they say they haven't entirely ruled it out, but it's very "remote". They also stated they've searched so thoroughly, that if Deorr had been up there they would have found him. So, that leaves us with no wandering away and lost in the woods scenario. No, I don't have a link right this instant, but I remember this. Does anyone else?

So what other options does that leave ? I can't think of anything else, other than that he believes that one or more of the POI's are responsible, and either Deorr was removed from that area, by them, or Deorr was never there, by them. That's it, that's what I have a problem with, he's stated he's all good with all the POI's, but yet he's indicating otherwise. JMO

Bolded by me.

While I would have loved for the sheriff and the FBI to tell me exactly what they knew and name names, how horrified would we all be right now, if the sheriff gave his best guess at theories or just shared all of his speculations when there was not evidence--or still isn't, as far we know, to charge anyone with anything. (Should he have said, "Well, IR sure is suspect, he knows lots of SO's, and ggp has an axe, we'll keep you posted at every step.") ???

Frankly, I would prefer him to play it cool and leave everyone innocent until proven guilty. Which he has!!!!

JUST TO LEVEL-SET, the convo on this thread has taken a turn to the extreme. Reminder: the sheriff only shrugged off a comment about video cameras; there is no reason to believe that he is lying to suspects to get confessions.

 

[wondering25]

Bolded by me.

While I would have loved for the sheriff and the FBI to tell me exactly what they knew and name names, how horrified would we all be right now, if the sheriff gave his best guess at theories or just shared all of his speculations when there was not evidence--or still isn't, as far we know, to charge anyone with anything. (Should he have said, "Well, IR sure is suspect, he knows lots of SO's, and ggp has an axe, we'll keep you posted at every step.") ???

Frankly, I would prefer him to play it cool and leave everyone innocent until proven guilty. Which he has!!!!

JUST TO LEVEL-SET, the convo on this thread has taken a turn to the extreme. Reminder: the sheriff only shrugged off a comment about video cameras; there is no reason to believe that he is lying to suspects to get confessions.

kammie, i can only speak for me. I do not think it is the lack of details that makes this case unusual. It is the sheriff virtually ruling out everything. Some may think he is being cagey. i dont. I am not saying he didnt do his job.. I think he did have searches, and crews, and planes and dogs etc. I think his press conferences for ME say he has no idea..or is being disingenuous.. not that he has a theory and is keeping it quiet. i do think the case was mishandled by not bringing the FBI in sooner..and the search area was unsecured for those first 2 hours and there wasnt a lot of media.. maybe i am not explaining myself well. He was good with the family, he cant find a trace of Deorr.. no boots or clothes.. scent was virtually absent.. doubts it was a wild animal but cant completely rule it out, abduction is remote..asks people not to have more searches.. There is an answer to this..this baby didnt vaporize.. The family has a PI helping them.. they may think the sheriff isnt being straight with them either..or they may be trying to deflect guilt. But, they are "solid".. see what i mean? MOO

Anything i say is just my opinion.

 

[ILOKAL]

Back to the campground. It is helpful for me to have visuals when thinking about the case.
Here is a video of Stone Reservoir at the campground. I've seen it before so maybe it's already been posted here?
If you don't like the Bee Gees, make sure you mute the sound

[video=youtube;mEk7Fe-GzDo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEk7Fe-GzDo[/video]

That's a great video Ready. So the creek (narrow portion of the reservoir) is to the left and it looks like it can be reached by walking along the bank of the reservoir or by going over and down the ridge. Is this correct?

 

[ILOKAL]

Bolded by me.

While I would have loved for the sheriff and the FBI to tell me exactly what they knew and name names, how horrified would we all be right now, if the sheriff gave his best guess at theories or just shared all of his speculations when there was not evidence--or still isn't, as far we know, to charge anyone with anything. (Should he have said, "Well, IR sure is suspect, he knows lots of SO's, and ggp has an axe, we'll keep you posted at every step.") ???

Frankly, I would prefer him to play it cool and leave everyone innocent until proven guilty. Which he has!!!!

JUST TO LEVEL-SET, the convo on this thread has taken a turn to the extreme. Reminder: the sheriff only shrugged off a comment about video cameras; there is no reason to believe that he is lying to suspects to get confessions.

I must have missed any posts that indicated there was reason to believe the sheriff is lying to suspects (there aren't any) to get confessions.

 

[bakerlady]

I was just reading about this today. I'll post the article in entirety as it's a LE statement:

SHERIFF REPORTS TO COMMISSIONERS 7-13-15

"Sheriff Lynn Bowerman told the Lemhi County Commissioners Monday, July 13, that based on the intense and extensive search conducted near Leadore for two year old Deorr Kunz Jr., it doesn’t make sense that the boy was not found.

Bowerman said the trained search dogs found nothing and kept coming back to the camp. Helicopters were used day and night to fly the area and fly over Stone Reservoir which is shallow enough to see to the bottom. He said divers explored the lake while approximately 150 volunteers on foot and on horseback conducted a thorough three mile grid-search of Timber Creek. The possibility of abduction by bear, wolf or mountain lion is not being ruled out although no trace of the boy or his apparel, which included oversized cowboy boots, was found.

The small boy disappeared Friday, July 10, from the Timber Creek Campground at Stone Reservoir. Bowerman said Timber Creek terrain is steep and rugged and is a mix of sagebrush and timber. He said given the proven expertise of the dogs the boy should have been found the first day.

Commissioner Chairman Rick Snyder described the area where the family was camped as being at the lake’s outlet which is very steep with very fast moving water flowing through brush and trees and limbs, all of which were pulled apart by searchers. Bowerman said people in wet suits were in the creek searching every hole.

The search has been officially suspended. The sheriff said investigators from Bonneville and Bingham counties have offered assistance in further follow-up investigations into any possible criminal histories of those involved."

http://lemhiweb.com/content/search-recap

I am beginning to think he was never at the camp and the only reason the dogs kept coming back to the camp is because his scent was on the belongings, clothes, blanket, truck, etc that were brought from the home TO the camp.

 

[neesaki]

Bolded by me.

While I would have loved for the sheriff and the FBI to tell me exactly what they knew and name names, how horrified would we all be right now, if the sheriff gave his best guess at theories or just shared all of his speculations when there was not evidence--or still isn't, as far we know, to charge anyone with anything. (Should he have said, "Well, IR sure is suspect, he knows lots of SO's, and ggp has an axe, we'll keep you posted at every step.") ???

Frankly, I would prefer him to play it cool and leave everyone innocent until proven guilty. Which he has!!!!

JUST TO LEVEL-SET, the convo on this thread has taken a turn to the extreme. Reminder: the sheriff only shrugged off a comment about video cameras; there is no reason to believe that he is lying to suspects to get confessions.

I partially agree .... except, he did insert his own personal belief that there was no kidnapping or abduction by wildlife, without proof, yet there's very often no evidence of something like that happening when it does happen. Children just up and seemingly vanish in the wilderness, with the parents and family right there. So by his own suggestion, some one in the group of POI's doesn't appear to be innocent, but yes, he hasn't actually come out and named names.

 

[bakerlady]

kammie, i can only speak for me. I do not think it is the lack of details that makes this case unusual. It is the sheriff virtually ruling out everything. Some may think he is being cagey. i dont. I am not saying he didnt do his job.. I think he did have searches, and crews, and planes and dogs etc. I think his press conferences for ME say he has no idea..or is being disingenuous.. not that he has a theory and is keeping it quiet. i do think the case was mishandled by not bringing the FBI in sooner..and the search area was unsecured for those first 2 hours and there wasnt a lot of media.. maybe i am not explaining myself well. He was good with the family, he cant find a trace of Deorr.. no boots or clothes.. scent was virtually absent.. doubts it was a wild animal but cant completely rule it out, abduction is remote..asks people not to have more searches.. There is an answer to this..this baby didnt vaporize.. The family has a PI helping them.. they may think the sheriff isnt being straight with them either..or they may be trying to deflect guilt. But, they are "solid".. see what i mean? MOO

Anything i say is just my opinion.

Unfortunately I don't think LE in these rural areas have much experience with investigation as do LE in larger populated areas. That says nothing about their character but much is gained from real world experience and I just don't think local LE in small towns has the proper experience and when something major such as a murder or missing child/abduction they should be asking for help from higher up. JMO.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

I don't think it's weird that we have such few details in this case. I would argue that's true for the majority of missing person cases; just check out Charley Project. I think the Internet has made it so people from far away can become aware of a case and demand information about it, but that doesn't mean LE will listen.

 

[Cardinal47]

Unfortunately I don't think LE in these rural areas have much experience with investigation as do LE in larger populated areas. That says nothing about their character but much is gained from real world experience and I just don't think local LE in small towns has the proper experience and when something major such as a murder or missing child/abduction they should be asking for help from higher up. JMO.

That is why the FBI has the Rapid Deployment for missing children task force. I am curious about when did they arrive.

To be fair to the Sheriff I think he thought DeOrr was simply lost and he could find him.

But I will say there was a whole lot of time lapsed between the time they say they last saw him and when the Sheriff arrived and started searching.

I am guessing from reading page after page it was at least three hours.

We can argue that time frame but no dogs or boots on the ground was there much sooner.

In conclusion, I too don't think he was ever there.

MOO

 

[Dee10]

I tend to agree with you however in this case, the Sheriff had help brought in from the NCMEC (which is a partner of the FBI) according to the following article which was dated July 16th. Not sure when the person arrived. http://www.ktvb.com/story/news/loca...ty-sheriffs-office-calls-in-experts/30213577/

BOISE -- The Lemhi County Sheriff's Office has called in some help from the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children (NCMEC). The NCMEC has sent out one of their search and rescue specialists to help with the search for 2-year-old DeOrr Kunz Jr.

The specialist in DeOrr's case has been dispatched from Wyoming. So he's familiar with the type of environment the Lemhi County Sheriff's Office is searching. Lowery says the specialist is there to offer his expertise and make suggestions to help find DeOrr Kunz Jr.

 

[Cardinal47]

So did DeOrr slip through both cracks. Amber and Abduction? Neither criteria was met at the time. Nobody saw anything. He just disappeared. Hummm will have to think on that one a bit.


https://www.fbi.gov/news/podcasts/thisweek/child-abduction-rapid-deployment-team.mp3/view

Child Abduction Rapid Deployment Team
05/09/2014
Play Local/Download


Mollie Halpern: Moments matter when a child is abducted, and the FBI’s Child Abduction Rapid Deployment teams are ready to immediately respond.

Scott Schelble: The FBI wants to be involved from the onset, and we’re willing to deploy assets from the onset. The top priority is the safe recovery of the child and the apprehension of the offender.

Halpern: I’m Mollie Halpern of the Bureau, and this is FBI, This Week. The Child Abduction Rapid Deployment—or CARD—teams are composed of a dozen or so special agents with expertise and experience of working crimes against children cases. The five teams are strategically located throughout the United States. CARD Team Coordinator Scott Schelble...

Schelble: What’s great about the team is that they offer this collection of experience and knowledge that you’re just not going to find anywhere else. And that’s because they’ve been specifically selected for this mission.

Halpern: CARD teams work closely with local law enforcement.

Schelble: It’s critical to have a collaborative, combined, and cohesive law enforcement response—which means that everybody is on the same page.

Halpern: CARD teams have a nearly 90 percent success rate in identifying and apprehending child abductors. To learn more, visit www.fbi.gov

 

[ReadySet]

Unfortunately I don't think LE in these rural areas have much experience with investigation as do LE in larger populated areas. That says nothing about their character but much is gained from real world experience and I just don't think local LE in small towns has the proper experience and when something major such as a murder or missing child/abduction they should be asking for help from higher up. JMO.

I will tell you that as a native Idahoan, there isn't a month--heck, a week--that goes by that I don't smh about some wacky thing I think my state has done.

But when it comes to rural LE, search and rescue, wilderness searches, mountain rescue, river and winter and high elevation and desert and rough terrain search and rescue and investigation, Idaho is second to none. Real world? We have our share of murders and missing persons. And it's often in the most difficult terrain and circumstances. This is Idaho's "thing." As I've tried to point out before, Idaho is almost all forest and desert. Even the Boise area is desert, it's just irrigated desert. This is not this sheriff's first rodeo. Real world experience? Small town? Have you ever lived in the mountain west? I would have much more confidence in LE who are from eastern Idaho to investigate this case than from someone who has lived in a city all their life!
I don't hesitate to criticize Idaho. But, I have extreme confidence in the way this search and investigation have been handled. I could be wrong. But I doubt it.

 

[ReadySet]

That's a great video Ready. So the creek (narrow portion of the reservoir) is to the left and it looks like it can be reached by walking along the bank of the reservoir or by going over and down the ridge. Is this correct?

I"m not great with maps and directions. That's why I spend hours poring over maps and trying to figure them out. There is a poster, ClaireNC? that seems to have a good understanding of this area. I hope she weighs in.
What I see in this video is that what I call the "finger", the narrow portion of the reservoir, flowing northeast it looks like, becomes the creek. And to the left or west of the narrow portion is a road. so yes, what you said. That is a road that goes to the campground. I think the rest of what you said is correct, but I need to go back to maps and check some more.
There is also another road that runs along, and past, the reservoir on the other side, the east side. From what I can tell, it goes on another couple of miles into the mountains. I'm still looking at the maps.
Honestly, none of what I've found is new. I know it has already been posted and discussed.

 

[wondering25]

That is why the FBI has the Rapid Deployment for missing children task force. I am curious about when did they arrive.

To be fair to the Sheriff I think he thought DeOrr was simply lost and he could find him.

But I will say there was a whole lot of time lapsed between the time they say they last saw him and when the Sheriff arrived and started searching.

I am guessing from reading page after page it was at least three hours.

We can argue that time frame but no dogs or boots on the ground was there much sooner.

In conclusion, I too don't think he was ever there.

MOO

Article from August 11 quotes Sheriff Bowerman as saying he turned everything over to the FBI. That is 1 month and 1 day after Deorr went missing.http://www.kboi2.com/news/local/DeOrr-Kunz-Missing-Idaho-321484631.html

It would appear the rapid deployment from the FBI task force for missing children, was not deployed.

Anything i write is just my opinion.

 

[ReadySet]

That is why the FBI has the Rapid Deployment for missing children task force. I am curious about when did they arrive.

To be fair to the Sheriff I think he thought DeOrr was simply lost and he could find him.

But I will say there was a whole lot of time lapsed between the time they say they last saw him and when the Sheriff arrived and started searching.

I am guessing from reading page after page it was at least three hours.

We can argue that time frame but no dogs or boots on the ground was there much sooner.

In conclusion, I too don't think he was ever there.

MOO

Is there any evidence that someone else wasn't sent up to the campground before LE got there from Salmon or wherever they were patrolling? I know I read (here on Websleuths) that a BLM manager from Leadore was the one who found the cremains dumper. It's feasible, to me, that there is one or more persons in Leadore that the LE can call on when they need immediate help and they can't get there. Rangers, BLM folks, etc. JMO

 

[Rayemonde]

That is why the FBI has the Rapid Deployment for missing children task force. I am curious about when did they arrive.

To be fair to the Sheriff I think he thought DeOrr was simply lost and he could find him.

But I will say there was a whole lot of time lapsed between the time they say they last saw him and when the Sheriff arrived and started searching.

I am guessing from reading page after page it was at least three hours.

We can argue that time frame but no dogs or boots on the ground was there much sooner.

In conclusion, I too don't think he was ever there.

MOO

Can anyone tell me where the information about it taking 2 hours for LE to get there comes from? I can't remember reading it in MSM. Is that what the family said on SM or something?

If you think he was never at the campsite, do you think that all 4 people were in on it? If you were trying to cover something up, why take along extra people who could contradict your story?