ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #12

[neesaki]

He was able to walk. Wasn't Lisa much younger?

That's a good point, she was only 10 months old. But little Deorr was still just a defenseless little toddler. So that tells me that LE and the FBI both must have strong beliefs that whatever happened didn't involve abduction / kidnapping. So that leaves either he wondered away and got lost, was a victim of a wild animal attack, or ......

 

[Yvettea]

Authorities are saying DeOrr was not abducted. The parents are solid. He's not in the stream or the lake. DeOrr wasn't carried off by animals. Where have the authorities left himself wiggle room to explain DeOrr's absence?

They searched the surrounding area; have they ruled out that he's in that area but not found?

 

[neesaki]

Authorities are saying DeOrr was not abducted. The parents are solid. He's not in the stream or the lake. DeOrr wasn't carried off by animals. Where have the authorities left himself wiggle room to explain DeOrr's absence?

They searched the surrounding area; have they ruled out that he's in that area but not found?

Do you mean, have they ruled out that he's not in that area? Or that he could still be in that area, just not found? Sorry, I'm a little unclear, but I'm a little tired too. :/

 

[Yvettea]

Do you mean, have they ruled out that he's not in that area? Or that he could still be in that area, just not found? Sorry, I'm a little unclear, but I'm a little tired too. :/

That's OK; me too. I was trying to ask if the authorities have said DeOrr is not in the surrounding area since they've already searched it or are they saying they could have missed him when they searched the area around the campsite?

 

[bessie]

I think it raises some questions for me that the FBI has baby Lisa Irwin listed as a kidnapped / missing person in spite of the questionable actions of her parents (specifically the mother) in Lisa's case. Yet they do not have little Deorr listed at all. How are the cases that much different? Well, other than little Deorr vanished in a wilderness area. Still...
There has to be something to that, no? Or am I reading something into it that isn't there? :dunno:

The FBI entered immediately in the Irwin case because the circumstances indicated a "kidnapping". The parents reported that a window was found open, front door unlocked, and cell phones were missing. In addition, a witness reported seeing a man that night, walking down the street holding a baby. Also, a phone call was made from the mother's phone around midnight to a number she'd never previously called. Iirc, that number belonged to a friend of a local handyman with a history of burglary. When a cadaver dog hit inside the house, the focus turned toward the parents, followed by a number of other events which make the case complicated, and imo, much different from Deorr's disappearance.

 

[Yvettea]

Just listened to the sheriffs interview after reading some articles and was struck by how humble and candid he appears. If I heard him correctly he is taking nothing off the table but he believes an abduction is unlikely. They have searched most diligently the creek, the reservoir, and the surrounding area devoting a couple of weeks to the search. I was struck again by the close proximity of the parents to the grandfather and to the grandfather's friend. The sheriff described the situation of DeOrr's care as grandfather was watching DeOrr, then he toddled off over the embankment toward his parents which is a little different than DeOrr simply wasn't supervised for 20 to 45 minutes (which I guess is the period of time that passed after DeOrr toddled toward his parents who were by the creek.)

 

[neesaki]

The FBI entered immediately in the Irwin case because the circumstances indicated a "kidnapping". The parents reported that a window was found open, front door unlocked, and cell phones were missing. In addition, a witness reported seeing a man that night, walking down the street holding a baby. Also, a phone call was made from the mother's phone around midnight to a number she'd never previously called. Iirc, that number belonged to a friend of a local handyman with a history of burglary. When a cadaver dog hit inside the house, the focus turned toward the parents, followed by a number of other events which make the case complicated, and imo, much different from Deorr's disappearance.

Ok, it's coming back to me now, I didn't realize I'd forgotten many of the details of Lisa's case. Thanks for the refresher, Bessie I was too tired to go back and do it myself.
I think that's a sign it's time for me to shut it down here for the evening, hope everyone has a a good night, praying for little Deorr to be found and brought home. fftobed:

 

[kammiemc]

Just listened to the sheriffs interview after reading some articles and was struck by how humble and candid he appears. If I heard him correctly he is taking nothing off the table but he believes an abduction is unlikely. They have searched most diligently the creek, the reservoir, and the surrounding area devoting a couple of weeks to the search. I was struck again by the close proximity of the parents to the grandfather and to the grandfather's friend. The sheriff described the situation of DeOrr's care as grandfather was watching DeOrr, then he toddled off over the embankment toward his parents which is a little different than DeOrr simply wasn't supervised for 20 to 45 minutes (which I guess is the period of time that passed after DeOrr toddled toward his parents who were by the creek.)

Dunno if you have watched the parents' first interview or read the People article, but the situation has been described in slightly different ways. But the consistent idea is that the parents thought the toddler would be okay with GGP while they went exploring, but GGP thought the toddler was with the parents. There has also been a lot of discussion and speculation as to whether GGP (due to declining mental and physical health) was capable of watching a toddler.
Regardless, the parents believed they were leaving their son in good hands. And poor GGP didn't seem to be aware he was babysitting.

I admit the timing discrepancy is a little troubling--10 mins gone and 50 yards away is different than 40 mins. There are a lot of questions that are unanswered--at least to the public. Hopefully the FBI can clear up some things so that the family can start healing and justice can be brought for the little guy (if is the case here that foul play was involved--if that can even be proven).

I agree that the sheriff seems humble and I think he has been as candid as he can be without compromising the investigation. If you listen to everything he has said, you can kind of tell where he generally thinks things are pointing. But he has been careful not throw around accusations or speculate publicly. He says that the FBI report will be "critical" in this case.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

If Deorr was "a filthy, bawling toddler" then it's to be expected that someone was staring. Whether he was sympathetic for the parents or silently judging them, I promise you having a screaming toddler warrants plenty of stares, in my experience.

Exactly my point! People are going to look at a kid having a tantrum, just as people are going to look at a kid who's being super cute. What I'm saying is, I don't think a man looking at a kid is a big deal unless that man is doing something really out of the ordinary. Either he was staring in a really pervy bad way, in which case the police would have jumped on it immediately, or he wasn't. I reckon he wasn't. I think the parents are clutching at straws. Or something.

 

[katydid23]

Exactly my point! People are going to look at a kid having a tantrum, just as people are going to look at a kid who's being super cute. What I'm saying is, I don't think a man looking at a kid is a big deal unless that man is doing something really out of the ordinary. Either he was staring in a really pervy bad way, in which case the police would have jumped on it immediately, or he wasn't. I reckon he wasn't. I think the parents are clutching at straws. Or something.

And there is very little traffic on those wide open roads. If that 'staring man' had followed the family back to the campgrounds on that long dusty dirt road---wouldn't it have been obvious?

 

[ILOKAL]

I don't know... that seems like a lot of time, money, resources, etc. to use just to try to prove something didn't happen for the sake of the sheriff's reputation, IMO. You may be correct, but I hope not.... I hope they are actually trying to figure out what did happen to him (but obviously he hasn't been found, so who knows what is going on...) :-(

I re-read my posts and I need to clarify. It sounds like I'm suggesting the sheriff may have called in the FBI to rule out (or in) an abduction to save his reputation on SM. My thoughts are that the criticism on SM of his not requesting an Amber Alert may have suggested to the sheriff that the FBI, as the agency with the most experience in abductions and kidnappings, SHOULD be called in to review that possibility. I am also not suggesting that would have been the ONLY reason to request assistance from the FBI, but merely the catalyst that caused the request to be made.

 

[Mickshawn]

Hmmm. 20-45 mins does not sound like the 5-10 mins we were fed at the beginning.

It's kind of a big deal, really.

Wasn't it that they were exploring 5-10 min., but then searched for a bit, so he was actually on his own longer (explore + search time) till they called 911? Didn't J. tell 911 he'd been lost one hour?

 

[pepelepolecat]

Link please [emoji6]

:drumroll:



http://www.planetofbirds.com/the-white-stork-and-the-bring-baby-story

 

[AnnaGrace]

I remember reading at one time that DeOrr Sr said they had narrowed down the actual time that little DeOrr was unaccounted for to four minutes. I wondered how that was decided and still do. Also, the remark that little DeOrr was going to be good for Grandpa made me wonder if they even told GGP that he was in charge or if they said something to the little one like 'will you stay and be good for Grandpa while mommy and daddy go for a walk?'. GGP may not have really realized he was supposed to look after him. Also, GGP said the parents were in sight of where he and little DeOrr were and he saw him walk toward the bank toward where parents were. So, what could have possibly happened in this small time frame? Unless the forty to forty five minutes is more accurate.

 

[Karinna]

I remember reading at one time that DeOrr Sr said they had narrowed down the actual time that little DeOrr was unaccounted for to four minutes. I wondered how that was decided and still do. Also, the remark that little DeOrr was going to be good for Grandpa made me wonder if they even told GGP that he was in charge or if they said something to the little one like 'will you stay and be good for Grandpa while mommy and daddy go for a walk?'. GGP may not have really realized he was supposed to look after him. Also, GGP said the parents were in sight of where he and little DeOrr were and he saw him walk toward the bank toward where parents were. So, what could have possibly happened in this small time frame? Unless the forty to forty five minutes is more accurate.

Maybe GGP fell asleep and Deorr wandered away if no one else was there to notice him?

 

[ILOKAL]

Maybe GGP fell asleep and Deorr wandered away if no one else was there to notice him?

I too have wondered about that. It is not at all unusual for "older" people to nap or dose off, particularly in the afternoon. I would imagine that relaxing in those beautiful, peaceful surroundings might easily have caused GGPA to dose off, perhaps without even recalling it. JMO

 

[Karinna]

I too have wondered about that. It is not at all unusual for "older" people to nap or dose off, particularly in the afternoon. I would imagine that relaxing in those beautiful, peaceful surroundings might easily have caused GGPA to dose off, perhaps without even recalling it. JMO

Exactly. And i thought Deorr was going to have his afternoon nap around the time mom & dad went exploring, and maybe that is what Deorr and GGP were used to doing at that time of day, because doesn't GGP live with them?
So maybe GGP fell asleep and little Deorr decided to go off on his own to look for his parents? And depending in which direction he went someone could of picked him up?

 

[ILOKAL]

Exactly. And i thought Deorr was going to have his afternoon nap around the time mom & dad went exploring, and maybe that is what Deorr and GGP were used to doing at that time of day, because doesn't GGP live with them?
So maybe GGP fell asleep and little Deorr decided to go off on his own to look for his parents? And depending in which direction he went someone could of picked him up?

Actually they live with DK's father who is little Deorr's paternal grandfather. GGPA who went camping doesn't live with them. He is JM's Grandfather and little Deorr's maternal great-grandfather.

I agree with everything else you said, even the possibility of taking a nap together.

 

[Jamaica Me Crazy]

Dad said they thought baby would be good with GGP by the fire. I think we all took that to mean that baby was with GGP at the fire. It could mean they thought baby would be good because GGP was at the fire alone and baby was close by, possibly in truck or camper by himself. It was close to nap time. Was baby put in camper or truck alone to take a nap? Bowerman said he was "alone." I'm short on time right now and hurrying through this post so I hope I've conveyed my thought clearly.

 

[Karinna]

Actually they live with DK's father who is little Deorr's paternal grandfather. GGPA who went camping doesn't live with them. He is JM's Grandfather and little Deorr's maternal great-grandfather.

I agree with everything else you said, even the possibility of taking a nap together.

Thankyou for the clarification.