ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #12

[Karinna]

Thank you for posting that article Karinna. It sounds like the FBI just entered the case.

Another thing I noticed (and had not noticed previously) is the reporter refers to the family getaway as a "fishing trip".

You're welcome ILOKAL.

 

[kammiemc]

If grandpa didn't know he was supposed to watch Deorr and/or fell asleep, his version may be the "wild card," so to speak. Maybe he really has no idea when Deorr walked away, so other folks have put words in his mouth. I also agree that there likely was not any verbal communication. If you assume Deorr went after his parents right away, that would make the time he was unattended much longer. If you later convinced GGP that he saw Deorr toddle away just 4 minutes before the parents returned, you could argue that he was only unattended for 4 minutes. Obviously the later versions have been given after having time to sit and think about how things may have occurred - the 911 version was given under duress and the important thing was not a precise timeline but getting help. My opinion is that later versions have been altered to try to reduce the amount of time he was unattended to make the parents seem less negligent, however, in doing so, they are also severely reducing any window of opportunity for abduction, so it's a double edged sword. It's hard to argue abduction if he was only unattended for 4 minutes, IMO. Perhaps that is why the sheriff originally ruled out abduction - if he later learned the amount of time Deorr was alone was much longer, he might start thinking that abduction, although still not likely, was possible. I don't know... just some thoughts. I also wonder what IR meant when he asked NE if he had talked to GGP?

To your point, another possibility is that maybe GGP DID see the toddler go to join his parents. Meaning, maybe it truly was the last time GGP recalls noticing what little DeOrr was doing, and maybe it was a bit later (even just a few minutes) that the parents left on their own, once they thought it was safe to go without him following. I am just thinking of every time I had a babysitter or even family members watch my son and had to sneak away quietly so he wouldn't start screaming and follow me.


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[ILOKAL]

For me, it is the lack of anyone relaying what words were exchanged between the parents and GGP. I haven't seen anything that indicates any verbal communication between the two parties (such as GGP saying that he and Deorr would be fine, or asking them how long they'd be gone, or asking if he should put Deorr down for a nap, etc. - or anything from JM or DK to GGP telling GGP what they were doing, where they were going, asking if it was okay for them to leave, etc.). The absence of this leads me to believe they just quietly left, thinking Deorr would be okay. DK said they thought Deorr would be good with GGP by the campfire (I'm paraphrasing here). It's also been said that GGP looked away and Deorr was gone or that he watched him walk over the embankment (again, my recollection) but I haven't read anything that indicates a verbal exchange. So, it's just an assumption on my part... could be wrong, of course.

Thanks desert-blue. See, I've read what you also have read and I wouldn't expect to necessarily hear what verbal exchange took place and I have no reason whatsoever to think one DIDN'T take place. I'd have to take a HUGE leap in human nature to think an exchange did NOT take place. I also can't figure out that just because DK said we thought he'd (DeOrr) be good with Grandpa by the fire, that somehow indicates they (the parents) just left DeOrr with GGPA (unbeknownst to GGPA) and simply walked (or snuck) away. Even if I thought the parents had something to do with little DeOrr's disappearance (which I absolutely do NOT), I still would "see" no reason to believe they had not communicated with GGPA about leaving DeOrr with him and that GGPA agreed to it.

 

[kammiemc]

Thanks desert-blue. See, I've read what you also have read and I wouldn't expect to necessarily hear what verbal exchange took place and I have no reason whatsoever to tink one DIDN'T take place. I'd have to make a HUGE leap in human nature to think an exchange did NOT take place. I also can't figure out that just because DK said we thought he'd (DeOrr) be good with Grandpa by the fire, that somehow indicates they (the parents) just left DeOrr with GGPA (unbeknownst to GGPA) and simply walked (or snuck) away. Even if I thought the parents had something to do with little DeOrr's disappearance (which I absolutely do NOT), I still would "see" no reason to believe they had not communicated with GGPA about leaving DeOrr with him and that GGPA agreed to it.

One simple reason that I think it is within reason to think that it might not have been communicated to GGP that he was in charge (beyond that it hasn't been stated anywhere) is that it seems GGP didn't have the info that he was in charge.

If GGP has his faculties and it was communicated to him by the parents that he was in charge, and yet he let the toddler change the plans by going to join the parents (toward the embankment--yikes) but didn't bother didn't check to make sure he made it to the parents and wasn't in the creek instead, that's quite a bad thing--I guess a different, but equally big leap to make, IMO.


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[desert-blue]

To your point, another possibility is that maybe GGP DID see the toddler go to join his parents. Meaning, maybe it truly was the last time GGP recalls noticing what little DeOrr was doing, and maybe it was a bit later (even just a few minutes) that the parents left on their own, once they thought it was safe to go without him following. I am just thinking of every time I had a babysitter or even family members watch my son and had to sneak away quietly so he wouldn't start screaming and follow me.


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I think maybe GGP did see him go, he just isn't sure when... like maybe he fell asleep but doesn't know if it was just a minute or ten minutes, something like that? Maybe at the time he assumed he had just shut his eyes for a moment (and therefore figured Deorr was just following his parents because they would still be right there) but later (after Deorr went missing) he starts to think maybe he dozed off for several minutes (and by then, Deorr probably would not have been able to find his parents). It's possible that he even went into the camper at some point as suggested by the PI - particularly if he thought Deorr was back with his parents. I do think there must be some issues with GGP's account and that is why it hasn't been released (and it also might explain why his identity was protected for so long). MOO.

 

[desert-blue]

Thanks desert-blue. See, I've read what you also have read and I wouldn't expect to necessarily hear what verbal exchange took place and I have no reason whatsoever to think one DIDN'T take place. I'd have to take a HUGE leap in human nature to think an exchange did NOT take place. I also can't figure out that just because DK said we thought he'd (DeOrr) be good with Grandpa by the fire, that somehow indicates they (the parents) just left DeOrr with GGPA (unbeknownst to GGPA) and simply walked (or snuck) away. Even if I thought the parents had something to do with little DeOrr's disappearance (which I absolutely do NOT), I still would "see" no reason to believe they had not communicated with GGPA about leaving DeOrr with him and that GGPA agreed to it.

I guess it's just a matter of opinion/interpretation and we don't agree - that is fine.

I don't think the lack of communication means anything sinister. I just think they saw an opportunity for some down time and thought Deorr would be fine sitting with Grandpa for a little while. In retrospect, I'm sure they regret that decision. MOO.

 

[ILOKAL]

I guess it's just a matter of opinion/interpretation and we don't agree - that is fine.

I don't think the lack of communication means anything sinister. I just think they saw an opportunity for some down time and thought Deorr would be fine sitting with Grandpa for a little while. In retrospect, I'm sure they regret that decision. MOO.

I'm not even sure it's a total disagreement. They might have, as you said, have wanted some down time to explore fishing spots (as has been said) but would have no reason to not ask GGPA if he would mind if little Deorr stayed with him for a sort while. There's where I have the problem. There's no reason, nefarious or not, for them to have just up and left little Deorr without communicating that with GGPA. That also doesn't stop GGPA from thinking little Deorr had met up with his parents. Would that have been due to poor judgment on GGPA's part? Perhaps, but we won't know for sure until we hear the story minus our speculations. Hopefully the reenactment cleared all of that up.

 

[kammiemc]

I guess it's just a matter of opinion/interpretation and we don't agree - that is fine.

I don't think the lack of communication means anything sinister. I just think they saw an opportunity for some down time and thought Deorr would be fine sitting with Grandpa for a little while. In retrospect, I'm sure they regret that decision. MOO.

I agree. I think it could be an incredibly innocent decision and would not even necessarily be a poor one if GGP was normally alert enough that he would get that the parents left and he needed to watch after the little guy. Maybe if JM takes care of GGP and the toddler is around him a lot, it's sort of an understanding that GGP looks after the boy when mom steps away. (That's sort of the unwritten rule between most parents I think.)
I have no idea. It's just sad and I am sure they all would desperately like to go back and make that day different, no matter what happened.


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[ILOKAL]

One simple reason that I think it is within reason to think that it might not have been communicated to GGP that he was in charge (beyond that it hasn't been stated anywhere) is that it seems GGP didn't have the info that he was in charge.

If GGP has his faculties and it was communicated to him by the parents that he was in charge, and yet he let the toddler change the plans by going to join the parents (toward the embankment--yikes) but didn't bother didn't check to make sure he made it to the parents and wasn't in the creek instead, that's quite a bad thing--I guess a different, but equally big leap to make, IMO.


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How do we "know" GGPA didn't have the info that he was in charge? Yes, at some point it seems there was confusion regarding if DeOrr was with GGPA or his parents, but that seems to point to the time GGPA has (allegedly) stated he saw Deorr walk toward his parents who were in his line of sight. If GGPA felt Deorr was very close to where his parents were he might have thought he would safely meet right up with them. GGPA need not have perceived any risks or dangers.

 

[kammiemc]

How do we "know" GGPA didn't have the info that he was in charge? Yes, at some point it seems there was confusion regarding if DeOrr was with GGPA or his parents, but that seems to point to the time GGPA has (allegedly) stated he saw Deorr walk toward his parents who were in his line of sight. If GGPA felt Deorr was very close to where his parents were he might have thought he would safely meet right up with them. GGPA need not have perceived any risks or dangers.

I don't know it to be a fact. It's just something that makes sense to me a possibility for all the reasons mentioned. Not up for arguing it.


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[KYPastTracker]

Has it ever been determined at what point the toddler actually was last seen? Was it when the toddler went over the embankment/when GGP turned his head, or was it when GGP went into the camper per the PI?

 

[desert-blue]

I'm not even sure it's a total disagreement. They might have, as you said, have wanted some down time to explore fishing spots (as has been said) but would have no reason to not ask GGPA if he would mind if little Deorr stayed with him for a sort while. There's where I have the problem. There's no reason, nefarious or not, for them to have just up and left little Deorr without communicating that with GGPA. That also doesn't stop GGPA from thinking little Deorr had met up with his parents. Would that have been due to poor judgment on GGPA's part? Perhaps, but we won't know for sure until we hear the story minus our speculations. Hopefully the reenactment cleared all of that up.

BBM: Let me preface this by saying my response is purely speculation on my part.

My experience with kiddos (I have 3 of them) is that announcing that you are leaving sometimes causes them to resist being left. On more than one occasion, I have "slipped out" while they were engaged in an activity so as not to make a scene (at preschool, for example). If they are in good hands, sometimes it's better to exit quietly. I have absolutely no actual facts to think this is what happened in Deorr's case, but to me, it makes sense. DK's comment about thinking Deorr would be good with Grandpa by the fire kind of goes along with this as well. DK didn't say that they asked Grandpa to watch to Deorr or that they told Deorr they would be right back or hugged him goodbye or anything like that. I think he chose his words carefully. Also, remember that they lived with DK's dad and so they may have been used to having a grandpa around to help watch Deorr. I don't think it means anything bad - most of the time, it probably would have been fine. This time it wasn't. Honestly, I don't know if we'll ever know the truth of what happened that day, but I guess time will tell....


ETA: I wanted to add that I am giving them the benefit of the doubt in regards to GGP's ability to watch Deorr. When this case first happened, it was reported that GGP was in very poor mental and physical health. If it turns out that GGP was not capable of watching the toddler, my feelings would change on this.

All MOO.

 

[kammiemc]

BBM: Let me preface this by saying my response is purely speculation on my part.

My experience with kiddos (I have 3 of them) is that announcing that you are leaving sometimes causes them to resist being left. On more than one occasion, I have "slipped out" while they were engaged in an activity so as not to make a scene (at preschool, for example). If they are in good hands, sometimes it's better to exit quietly. I have absolutely no actual facts to think this is what happened in Deorr's case, but to me, it makes sense. DK's comment about thinking Deorr would be good with Grandpa by the fire kind of goes along with this as well. DK didn't say that they asked Grandpa to watch to Deorr or that they told Deorr they would be right back or hugged him goodbye or anything like that. I think he chose his words carefully. Also, remember that they lived with DK's dad and so they may have been used to having a grandpa around to help watch Deorr. I don't think it means anything bad - most of the time, it probably would have been fine. This time it wasn't. Honestly, I don't know if we'll ever know the truth of what happened that day, but I guess time will tell....

All MOO.

I think we kinda wrote the same thing!


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[kammiemc]

Has it ever been determined at what point the toddler actually was last seen? Was it when the toddler went over the embankment/when GGP turned his head, or was it when GGP went into the camper per the PI?

If it has been determined, it hasn't been shared publicly. I think it's probably hard because only GGP could truly know that info if he was the only one with the toddler at the time. And we've never heard him say a word. But we've heard all the scenarios you brought up.


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[ILOKAL]

BBM: Let me preface this by saying my response is purely speculation on my part.

My experience with kiddos (I have 3 of them) is that announcing that you are leaving sometimes causes them to resist being left. On more than one occasion, I have "slipped out" while they were engaged in an activity so as not to make a scene (at preschool, for example). If they are in good hands, sometimes it's better to exit quietly. I have absolutely no actual facts to think this is what happened in Deorr's case, but to me, it makes sense. DK's comment about thinking Deorr would be good with Grandpa by the fire kind of goes along with this as well. DK didn't say that they asked Grandpa to watch to Deorr or that they told Deorr they would be right back or hugged him goodbye or anything like that. I think he chose his words carefully. Also, remember that they lived with DK's dad and so they may have been used to having a grandpa around to help watch Deorr. I don't think it means anything bad - most of the time, it probably would have been fine. This time it wasn't. Honestly, I don't know if we'll ever know the truth of what happened that day, but I guess time will tell....

All MOO.

I hear ya, but not in the wilderness. I have five children and am raising a grandson so have lots of experience and did also, like yourself, find myself in a situation where just leaving was better for everyone than the long good byes, providing, of course, they were not only left in good hands but also in a safe, secure place. These parents seem to be doting parents with Deorr and it makes no sense (to me) to think they would have just up and left Deorr at the campsite without first informing the GGPA that they would be gone for a short while. Also, when DK said they thought Deorr would be good with GGPA by the fire, that to me sounds like behavior . . . . He would be "good" with GGPA.

 

[desert-blue]

I hear ya, but not in the wilderness. I have five children and am raising a grandson so have lots of experience and did also, like yourself, find myself in a situation where just leaving was better for everyone than the long good byes, providing, of course, they were not only left in good hands but also in a safe, secure place. These parents seem to be doting parents with Deorr and it makes no sense (to me) to think they would have just up and left Deorr at the campsite without first informing the GGPA that they would be gone for a short while. Also, when DK said they thought Deorr would be good with GGPA by the fire, that to me sounds like behavior . . . . He would be "good" with GGPA.

Did he say good with grandpa or good for grandpa? I'll have to go listen again... maybe I misunderstood.

ETA - he does say "good with grandpa by the campfire" - I guess it's open for interpretation. My feeling is that good isn't referring only to his behavior but more that he would be okay/safe/cooperative while they were gone. MOO.

 

[TeaTime]

All this chatter about whether there was direct communication between the parents and GGP such as "watch Little DeOrr while we are gone" is meaningless.

GGP knew he was the only adult at the campsite with the child, he knew the parents walked away because he stated that he thought the child was walking to where the parents were as he disappeared over the bank.

Does it take direct instructions and agreement for someone to watch over a 2 year old when no one else is around? No. Anyone would know to keep an eye on the child. The responsibility arises out of the circumstances even if GGP wasn't directly asked to watch the baby.

 

[Jamaica Me Crazy]

Dad said they thought baby would be good with GGP by the fire. I think we all took that to mean that baby was with GGP at the fire. It could mean they thought baby would be good because GGP was at the fire alone and baby was close by, possibly in truck or camper by himself. It was close to nap time. Was baby put in camper or truck alone to take a nap? Bowerman said he was "alone." I'm short on time right now and hurrying through this post so I hope I've conveyed my thought clearly.

Doesn't anyone have any thoughts on my morning post?

 

[kammiemc]

Did he say good with grandpa or good for grandpa? I'll have to go listen again... maybe I misunderstood.

ETA - he does say "good with grandpa by the campfire" - I guess it's open for interpretation. My feeling is that good isn't referring only to his behavior but more that he would be okay/safe/cooperative while they were gone. MOO.

I agree that under the circumstances that he went missing when they left, I interpreted DK as explaining that they thought the toddler would be good, as in okay, as in safe while they were gone. But who knows, maybe he was thinking more about explaining how he thought toddler would be well-behaved when they were gone. Regardless, the parents obviously believed he would be okay with GGP or presumably they wouldn't have left.


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[Mickshawn]

Doesn't anyone have any thoughts on my morning post?

I just listened to the Unedited interview (at least that part) again.

At 8:50

D. Sr.: "He was playing with grandpa. He was getting ready for a nap."

J: "He was with my grandpa"

9:03

D. Sr.: He was gonna be good with grandpa by the campfire.

At 9:29:

D. Sr.: "He (grandpa) immediately shocked", then says that grandpa said "(I thought) he came up to you."

Doesn't sound at all like Ggrandpa put him anywhere for any nap.