ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #12

[neesaki]

There is interesting information on this site about Idaho's BIG (literally) cats!

http://www.gameandfishmag.com/hunting/hunting_big-game-hunting_rm_aa014605a/

So the state of Idaho contains the highest number of "behemoth mountain lions", more specifically Idaho County, which butts right up to the NW corner of Lemhi County. And the Frank Church River of No Return Wilderness area, part of which is also in Lemhi County.

I don't see how LE could rule out the mountain lion possibility, unless they have some evidence of something else they haven't disclosed to the public. Which I've always believed to be a possibility. All we really have from them is that on the one hand they don't think or believe it was an animal predator, while on the other hand they haven't completely ruled anything out. I know some believe that there would be obvious evidence, such as the toy trucks falling from the baby's pockets, or his boots coming off. I just don't think that can be a guaranteed thing or would necessarily be the case. Still, at this point I'm going to try to hold on to a little hope that someone has him and that he's at least alive and safe.

 

[neesaki]

Fatal cougar attacks are extremely rare and occur much less frequently than fatal dog attacks, fatal snake bites, fatal lightning strikes, or fatal bee stings. Children are particularly vulnerable. The majority of the child victims listed here were not accompanied by adults.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_cougar_attacks_in_North_America

And Jaryd Atadero was about the same age and size of little Deorr. They found his remains 3 1/2 years later.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_cougar_attacks_in_North_America

​
Jaryd Atadero, 3, male October 2, 1999 Disappeared while hiking with a group of his father's friends on the Big South Trail in Poudre Canyon, west of Fort Collins, Colorado.[SUP][15][/SUP] In June 2003, his clothing was discovered, 500 feet (150 m) up a cliff above the trail where he vanished, by hikers.[SUP][16][/SUP] Jaryd's fragmentary human remains were found with the clothing.[SUP][17][/SUP] A wildlife biologist found the damage to the clothing was consistent with mountain lion predation

More here:
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/shredded-clothes-tell-sad-story-10-06-2003/

 

[ReadySet]

I don't know what the green things are, some part of the drone I guess.

Thanks, ReadySet. That was amazing!

In the beginning, when some of the campers were milling about, and then they looked up to watch the drone -- it reminded me of a UFO sighting. Drone's erratic flight pattern while orbiting around left me feeling dizzy and a bit nauseous. I didn't mute the sound -- very eerie -- kind of gave me the willies!
(Then I watched the Domino's pizza delivery drone video.) :blushing:

Thanks again!

P.S. What are those two green things with stems hanging down that look like pom-poms?

 

[haven71]

And Jaryd Atadero was about the same age and size of little Deorr. They found his remains 3 1/2 years later.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_cougar_attacks_in_North_America

More here:
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/shredded-clothes-tell-sad-story-10-06-2003/

So, there WAS evidence in this case. I'm wondering what the statistics are, if any, of mountain lion attacks with and without evidence. I guess without evidence...pretty hard to calculate. LOL. Perhaps it's been recorded that people have *seen* others taken by a cougar where no other evidence existed...

 

[ReadySet]

I do not believe that an animal caused the disappearance of little Deorr.

There are LE, Search and Rescue, locals who are hunters, trackers, hikers, who know this area inside out. They have tramped around in those hills, know every drainage, range, creek, ravine, and ridge. They have done every type of hunting, including for lions. There are people, both local and not, who have hiked from one side of the Lemhi Range to the other.

People have ridden ATVs, horses, and motorcycles in this area. There are people there who have hiked the trails, gone off the trails, and hacked through the underbrush making their own trails.

There is no doubt in my mind that LE's statement about animals is based on their own knowdege, and consulting with many of these people. "Hank, you've hiked/hunted up there, what's the chance of a lion taking the boy in that situation?" and countless other conversations and investigations. The FBI folks may not be from the Lemhi Valley, but LE, search and rescue, and locals who are outdoorsmen and are intimately acquainted with the area and animal behavior, are.

But somehow we, sitting miles away, never having been to that area, most never having been to the state, many never even have been to the mountains! know better than they do, because we have read about mountain lions? A few children might have been killed by lions in other area? So, that must be what happened here?
And LE knows that, and is hiding that from the public, because why?

I'll base my opinions on information from those who have the most knowledge of the situation, who are there, who have expertise in these kinds of situations.
JMO

 

[neesaki]

So, there WAS evidence in this case. I'm wondering what the statistics are, if any, of mountain lion attacks with and without evidence. I guess without evidence...pretty hard to calculate. LOL. Perhaps it's been recorded that people have *seen* others taken by a cougar where no other evidence existed...

Are you referring to the evidence of the clothing and remains that were found 3 1/2 years later?
This article is dated three days later when they found the partial skull and tooth. http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/partial-remains-of-missing-littleton-boy-found

The boy disappeared in October 1999 while hiking in the Comanche Peak Wilderness Area (pictured, left) with a church group and authorities believed he was grabbed by a mountain lion while running along the trail alone, although no evidence of a lion attack was ever found.

They did find mountain lion tracks in the general vicinity though. This is an earlier report a few days after Jaryd disappeared.
http://extras.denverpost.com/news/news1007.htm

Smith said the cat tracks were about one-tenth of a mile from the child's prints, and that there was no sign Wednesday the two paths intersected. Searchers have not found other signs of a lion attack, such as a drag mark, blood or clothing. Yet some searchers believe the boy might have been in the vicinity of a mountain lion.

 

[ILOKAL]

I do not believe that an animal caused the disappearance of little Deorr.

There are LE, Search and Rescue, locals who are hunters, trackers, hikers, who know this area inside out. They have tramped around in those hills, know every drainage, range, creek, ravine, and ridge. They have done every type of hunting, including for lions. There are people, both local and not, who have hiked from one side of the Lemhi Range to the other.

People have ridden ATVs, horses, and motorcycles in this area. There are people there who have hiked the trails, gone off the trails, and hacked through the underbrush making their own trails.

There is no doubt in my mind that LE's statement about animals is based on their own knowdege, and consulting with many of these people. "Hank, you've hiked/hunted up there, what's the chance of a lion taking the boy in that situation?" and countless other conversations and investigations. The FBI folks may not be from the Lemhi Valley, but LE, search and rescue, and locals who are outdoorsmen and are intimately acquainted with the area and animal behavior, are.

But somehow we, sitting miles away, never having been to that area, most never having been to the state, many never even have been to the mountains! know better than they do, because we have read about mountain lions? A few children might have been killed by lions in other area? So, that must be what happened here?
And LE knows that, and is hiding that from the public, because why?

I'll base my opinions on information from those who have the most knowledge of the situation, who are there, who have expertise in these kinds of situations.
JMO

It's no different than any other scenario that is looked at, studied, and researched from afar. However, in the case of mountain lions, there is enough real research on their behaviors that are static no matter WHERE they live. That's something else that makes them unique. They can live everywhere and anywhere providing there is plentiful prey which for mountain lions can be anything from a mouse to a moose. We already KNOW there are lions in the area. That's all we have to know and that given the circumstances of little Deorr literally vanishing, it is more than likely that he was quickly and quietly grabbed by a mountain lion. Cougars behave the same no matter where they live and there is no opinion anywhere, even in or near the area, that can change that . . . . Not the sheriff's, not the FBI's, not the hunters', not the searchers', not the hikers', and none of us. JMO

 

[neesaki]

I do not believe that an animal caused the disappearance of little Deorr.

There are LE, Search and Rescue, locals who are hunters, trackers, hikers, who know this area inside out. They have tramped around in those hills, know every drainage, range, creek, ravine, and ridge. They have done every type of hunting, including for lions. There are people, both local and not, who have hiked from one side of the Lemhi Range to the other.

People have ridden ATVs, horses, and motorcycles in this area. There are people there who have hiked the trails, gone off the trails, and hacked through the underbrush making their own trails.

There is no doubt in my mind that LE's statement about animals is based on their own knowdege, and consulting with many of these people. "Hank, you've hiked/hunted up there, what's the chance of a lion taking the boy in that situation?" and countless other conversations and investigations. The FBI folks may not be from the Lemhi Valley, but LE, search and rescue, and locals who are outdoorsmen and are intimately acquainted with the area and animal behavior, are.

But somehow we, sitting miles away, never having been to that area, most never having been to the state, many never even have been to the mountains! know better than they do, because we have read about mountain lions? A few children might have been killed by lions in other area? So, that must be what happened here?
And LE knows that, and is hiding that from the public, because why?

I'll base my opinions on information from those who have the most knowledge of the situation, who are there, who have expertise in these kinds of situations.
JMO

Well, alright then. :doorhide: Nah, just kidding, let's discuss your theory now.

 

[ILOKAL]

LE needn't be "hiding" information from the public. But if they don't KNOW what happened to Deorr there are some possibilities that might prove better than others for various reasons. Take mountain lions for example. Unless it can be PROVEN that a mountain lion took Deorr then it is better for that possibility to not be given much credence. Mountain lions are good (Great!) for the economy. People come to the area from ALL over to recreate and have no reason (now) to think about, much less fear, injury or death by mountain lion. But for the hunters, THEY come to the area in SEARCH of the BIG cats and spend a boat load of money in that pursuit. Think about how much money is brought to the local economy . . . . Outfitters (Avg $6,000/person) gun sales, clothing, transportation, food, lodging, to name just a few. If mountain lions in the area get a reputation of preying on humans, the people might decide to eradicate them to keep the forests and campgrounds safe, but then what would that do to the hunting economy that depends on the dollars brought in to hunt the big cats? All just speculation on possibilities and all IMO.

 

[Little Ol Me]

According to Sheriff Bowerman interference by a wild animal has not been ruled out.
He was ask if the possibility of involvement by wild animals has been ruled out, and answers,
"absolutely nothing has been ruled out."

He tells us that his deputy has checked out dens of wild animals that live up there.
The deputy also explains:
"there could have been some interference from a predator at some point in the scenario, whether at the beginning, or part way through".

starting @ 8:22
[video=youtube;FV-h82eVQ1M]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FV-h82eVQ1M[/video]

 

[desert-blue]

I did not sense that when the sheriff said the investigation was headed in a different direction that he meant either animals or stranger abduction. I wonder now, though, if they actually had a specific direction that they were headed or if it was just that they couldn't find any trace of him on the mountain so they decided something else must have happened? Behavioral analyses of the four POI's would not be in line with a cougar attack either (unless they are just ruling out all the people at the campsite, I suppose). I just think they must be looking into something else, but what I have no idea. Some type of foul play that may or may not directly involve any of the four POI's? (kidnapping by a family member, an ex, a "friend," someone they owed money, some type of "payback," maybe even like the PI suggested an arranged "adoption" or something weird like that? Someone that knew where they'd be and decided to take him for some reason? I'm just grasping at straws here...)

It's been 8 weeks since the FBI was officially involved (I suspect they were involved earlier than what has been released, so that would make it even longer. MOO.) This article from August 10th says that the "Lemhi County Sheriff's Office has been assisted by the FBI over the past month to find 2-year-old Deorr Kunz Jr." At any rate, it's been a long time. I don't know what that means - either it's a very complicated case and/or they have a ton of evidence and it's taking them a very long to process it all, or else they have nothing - those seem to be the only two reasons I can think of. Maybe they are waiting in hopes that he will be found (either deceased or alive) before making any statements? I don't know.

I keep going back to JM's comment about how someone could do that to them (direct quote"Who would harm us this way?"). I also think about Sheriff Killeen's statement "urging everyone to hold their judgment and let the investigation play out." Also, the Fish & Game investigator is quoted as saying, "I’m quite satisfied this will come to a resolution." It seems like they all know something...

All MOO, of course.

 

[giagreen]

According to Sheriff Bowerman interference by a wild animal has not been ruled out.
He was ask if the possibility of involvement by wild animals has been ruled out, and answers,
"absolutely nothing has been ruled out."

He tells us that his deputy has checked out dens of wild animals that live up there.
The deputy also explains:
"there could have been some interference from a predator at some point in the scenario, whether at the beginning, or part way through".

starting @ 8:22
[video=youtube;FV-h82eVQ1M]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FV-h82eVQ1M[/video]

The sheriff even says him self they had bears and wolfs running threw camps as they were searching.

 

[Rayemonde]

The family and the PI have gone awfully quiet... If they really thought it was an abduction you'd think they'd be trying to get more publicity for DeOrr.

 

[giagreen]

The family and the PI have gone awfully quiet... If they really thought it was an abduction you'd think they'd be trying to get more publicity for DeOrr.

Yeah they have. I guess we all can take that any way we want. And we all have different ideas on why that is.
For me I think they have finally realized how unlikely it is that someone has him.
They are hurtin parents. I thinks its expedited they would hold onto anything that might mean their child is alive and will come home one day. To believe anything els would mean they'd have to face it that he probably isn't with us any more.
To me it'd be suspicious if they believed right off the bat he was dead.

 

[ReadySet]

If an animal took little Deorr, (which I do not believe and I presented that as my opinion, not a fact) then whoever was in charge of him was highly negligent. You do not, cannot, leave a two and a half year old alone in a campground, that close to water, even for a second.

(modsnip)

 

[Yvettea]

He was ask if the possibility of involvement by wild animals has been ruled out, and answers,
"absolutely nothing has been ruled out."

He tells us that his deputy has checked out dens of wild animals that live up there.
The deputy also explains:
"there could have been some interference from a predator at some point in the scenario, whether at the beginning, or part way through".

starting @ 8:22
[video=youtube;FV-h82eVQ1M]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FV-h82eVQ1M[/video]

Yes, he says there are wild animals coming into campgrounds, not carrying people off. There are people coming campgrounds and they aren't abducting other people. I bet there are people staring everywhere.

But consider this, out of the four people at the campground three of them are at the creek fishing or exploring. Those three are separated by 100 to 150 ft. The person who has DeOrr in his sight is 100 to 150 ft away and can see the parents. He (GGF) allows DeOrr to toddle down the embankment in the direction of his parents. When does anyone or anything have an opportunity to grab DeOrr unnoticed? Meanwhile GGF is 20 to 25 ft away from the only road into the campground.

From where came predator? Unseen? No, I don't think so.

 

[kammiemc]

The family and the PI have gone awfully quiet... If they really thought it was an abduction you'd think they'd be trying to get more publicity for DeOrr.

Maybe the FBI has shared with the parents their ideas of a possible theory/possible theories based on all that they investigated and analyzed. And those theories don't include stranger abduction. Just a thought IMO.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Rayemonde]

Yes, he says there are wild animals coming into campgrounds, not carrying people off. There are people coming campgrounds and they aren't abducting other people. I bet there are people staring everywhere.

But consider this, out of the four people at the campground three of them are at the creek fishing or exploring. Those three are separated by 100 to 150 ft. The person who has DeOrr in his sight is 100 to 150 ft away and can see the parents. He (GGF) allows DeOrr to toddle down the embankment in the direction of his parents. When does anyone or anything have an opportunity to grab DeOrr unnoticed? Meanwhile GGF is 20 to 25 ft away from the only road into the campground.

From where came predator? Unseen? No, I don't think so.

It's possible but it does seem very unlikely... But it may be that the family had their timeline wrong and DeOrr was wandering unsupervised for a lot longer than that.

 

[haven71]

This is the first "case" I've been following since July, when I had just returned home from Northern Idaho. Our local new station ran the story, and I followed any info I could get til I found myself here, and I joined Websleuths.

How do you all keep it together, keep everything so factual and so focused...and then...no resolution comes. Ever. The person is never found. Do you have emotions tied up in these cases, is that why you come here? To try to help and "fight" for the victims? The thought depresses me so much. But at the same time I feel like these victims deserve to have every angle discussed and dissected, in the hopes that something positive or helpful will come of it.

Right now, I am just feeling so sad about little Deorr. He is on my mind all the time. I picture this discussion dwindling profoundly as months go by, and that's upsetting. Justice, resolution, closure...evasive. I won't ever forget this little guy.

 

[giagreen]

This is the first "case" I've been following since July, when I had just returned home from Northern Idaho. Our local new station ran the story, and I followed any info I could get til I found myself here, and I joined Websleuths.

How do you all keep it together, keep everything so factual and so focused...and then...no resolution comes. Ever. The person is never found. Do you have emotions tied up in these cases, is that why you come here? To try to help and "fight" for the victims? The thought depresses me so much. But at the same time I feel like these victims deserve to have every angle discussed and dissected, in the hopes that something positive or helpful will come of it.

Right now, I am just feeling so sad about little Deorr. He is on my mind all the time. I picture this discussion dwindling profoundly as months go by, and that's upsetting. Justice, resolution, closure...evasive. I won't ever forget this little guy.

O/T but sinse you asked I will answer. I first came here because I seriously love nothing more then a good old mystery. And I really wanna know who the long island serial killer is. These types of cases like DeOrr originally are not my thing.

But then I started branching out amd reading the child abuse cases here that for the longest time refused to because its just to sad. As I started reading more of them I realized just how little attention they seem to get. And now I find myself reading these horrible heart breaking child abuse cases because its my way of showing my respects to all the poor defenceless children who have lost their lifes usually by the hands of their parents. If we don't read them then the world has forgotten them. They had their lifes taken and no one can change that but we can listen to their story because that's all they have left.
Its sad. Sometimes I question why I put myself threw it. But its the least I can do for them. Turning my head the other way and refusing to acknowledge their story even exists seems so disrespectful. Idk kinda corny I know...lol but its why I put myself threw it. Because I'd actually rather read about murdered escorts and serial killers then abused children. Both sad but totally different kind of sad.