ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #2

[nitsirk]

I'm seeing a pattern here that I don't quite understand. It seems that MANY parents of missing children; Dennis Martin; Jared Atadero; Diane Prevost; DeOrr Kunz; and probably a host of others, believe their children were abducted.

What I'm trying to say/ask, is this a survival mechanism the parents put into action, or a real belief? If it is a real belief, what is the basis for it?

I have always thought they want to believe it was a kidnapping because it is the 'best' possible outcome. There is a chance their child is alive and well, with another family, just waiting to be found. Any other scenario and their child perished in the woods or where ever they were.

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[Mickshawn]

What mileage radius have they checked? (Sorry, cannot remember). Was just talking to someone who knew of a 2 year old who got lost in a National Park or Forest...They found him 48 hours later, 5 miles away and just fine. That's really far for a 2 year old to travel....The guy is now in his 40s. All he remembers is when he was found....

 

[Hatfield]

we have no clue what carrier he/they had, also type of cell matters too. I have an older blackberry with Verizon & have issues in parts of my town. I would have done the same thing, driven till I had signal bars on my cell



not illegal according to a link I found. People do it all the time

This is 1 link I found that talks about the Clean Water Act and needing some sort of permit.

"The Clean Water Act is a federal-state partnership by which water standards are set by the Federal government through the EPA and the states for implementation and enforcement. This means the states oversee the water quality for lakes, rivers, streams, wetlands and ponds.

For inland water burials, such as in lakes, rivers, etc., the laws state that a permit is needed prior to the disposal of ashes. The process is to check with the state park where the body of water is located and apply for a permit."

http://www.nj.com/gloucester/voices/index.ssf/2011/02/your_legal_corner_disposing_of.html

 

[Roselvr]

We've had a discussion on the pros and cons of search/cadaver/cremains/whatever dogs before. There are so many cases where they do no good, and some where they actually help. But, even though I've been shown cases where dogs do what they are trained for, there are other cases which make me wonder if they are worth the dog food - take a good look at the two escapees from Dannemora not long ago. These two were running through the woods the whole time, and the dogs never did find a good trail or do any good at all. Both of them were taken/killed mainly by luck/accident. It seems to me dogs are not all they're cracked up to me unless sicced on a fleeing suspect and holding him down.

I don't want to be down on dogs, love 'em to death, but seriously wondering if we don't put too much credence in them or their handlers. Ah, yes, handlers. Often I've seen handlers pulling their dogs away from something they seemed very keen on. Wazzup with that, I've often wondered. In summation, I'm still wondering if dogs are much help at all, there seem to be sooooo many factors that can throw them off. Maybe we should have stuck to blood hounds - in the movies they always caught their man.

Opinion only

I'd like to know how many & what type of dogs were brought in. There are many different types, not all good for every situation. Take Chris Sexton; unfortunately his thread is removed, dogs picked up his scent in a parking lot like he got into a car. They also went on both sides of the street as well as the trail through the woods. Here is the thing, Chris had been drinking, got into a fight; at some point he must have lost his shoe (was not found).. They think he walked through the woods at night with one shoe, fell on a vine, passed out or whatever. No COD. Dogs were searching within 10-15 feet.
Was crazy! A home owner smelled the decomp. Family had also searched many, many times as he always walked through the woods. Pretty sure they also brought Chris's dog out. Either the dogs & everyone missed him (Oct/Nov) or someone moved him.

As for Dr Teleka Patrick, they think she stumbled down a hill into the water, dogs did not track her scent

I'm not confident the dogs they brought in are any good. The bloodhound used to find Autumn Pasquale was really good. I personally can think of 2 cases where bodies were missed in areas that were supposedly searched. Chris Sexton WV missing Oct to Dec 6, 2015 Then Dr Teleka Patrick MI found in the water Spring 2014. I think someone needs to watch for "signs of decomp" (birds/ vultures)

 

[teeandcee]

Sorry I misled you...lease:

No problem. I thought I remembered it your way so I was confused to begin with, lol.

 

[IndianSummer]

Y

All we have been told is that the dogs were led in the wrong direction by cremains that were dumped during the search.
As far as little Deorr having become stuck in any hole including a mine vent, wouldn't the dogs have followed that scent while working the woods?
According to LE several types of specialized dogs were used. Helicopters using FLIR and many other search techniques were used. To the point the sheriff no longer believes the child is there. He said they tore that country up.
I hope you guys are right in many ways, but I want to keep the hope that Deorr is still alive, however slim.
If he's stuck in a hole, under a rock, etc. then he is surely deceased.
jmho

How about up in a tree.
There have been deer skeletons found high up in trees.
A large cat is not like a dog. A full-grown cougar is capable of killing a moose & strong enough to carry a full-size white-tail deer up a tree with its teeth.
I see those huge thick trees going on forever in the campsite photos.

JMO & hope this is not the case

 

[teeandcee]

Actually, and I'm not making light of the situation, a wild animal would be far more merciful than a human predator. Too many people have no idea what wild animals are like, in my opinion.

I agree. I've been trying to figure out a way to say this.

 

[Hatfield]

I agree that someone/s need to watch for signs of decomp, but I would think that wild animals would find it much faster than a human. Especially at night.
Poor Deorr. I don't want to think he is dead.
jmo

This is another great point.

If I was in control of a SAR group. I would always have 2 distinct phases.

The 1st would use dogs trained to track a live person.

After 1 week or going into 2 weeks like now , a 2nd Search phase needs to be taken using dogs that can smell decomposition.

The odor gets much worse over time and it would be much easier now for search dogs to find a decomposing body after this length of time.

LE has stated they are going in another direction but even with that other direction I think it would be very helpful to have dogs come back in looking just for decomp.

For that matter, humans can detect decomp too for great distances with a breeze when a body has been decomposing about 2 weeks or more.

I hope search groups are doing this specific 2nd phase and maybe we are just not hearing about it.

 

[sarx]

What mileage radius have they checked? (Sorry, cannot remember). Was just talking to someone who knew of a 2 year old who got lost in a National Park or Forest...They found him 48 hours later, 5 miles away and just fine. That's really far for a 2 year old to travel....The guy is now in his 40s. All he remembers is when he was found....

Yeah, we had a two year old that was three miles away in under eight hours. Luckily she popped up on a road because we never would have gone that far based on her age. Change out practices in a hurry.

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[Hatfield]

I'd like to know how many & what type of dogs were brought in. There are many different types, not all good for every situation. Take Chris Sexton; unfortunately his thread is removed, dogs picked up his scent in a parking lot like he got into a car. They also went on both sides of the street as well as the trail through the woods. Here is the thing, Chris had been drinking, got into a fight; at some point he must have lost his shoe (was not found).. They think he walked through the woods at night with one shoe, fell on a vine, passed out or whatever. No COD. Dogs were searching within 10-15 feet.
Was crazy! A home owner smelled the decomp. Family had also searched many, many times as he always walked through the woods. Pretty sure they also brought Chris's dog out. Either the dogs & everyone missed him (Oct/Nov) or someone moved him.

As for Dr Teleka Patrick, they think she stumbled down a hill into the water, dogs did not track her scent

OT
Thanks for mentioning about Chris Sexton's case. I had followed that case here on WS and wondered what happened to his thread. It drove me crazy because I could not find his thread.

I had wondered what happened to him and glad he was finally found. That was a terrible case for family and friends just like this one is terrible for family and friends.

 

[sarx]

I'd like to know how many & what type of dogs were brought in. There are many different types, not all good for every situation. Take Chris Sexton; unfortunately his thread is removed, dogs picked up his scent in a parking lot like he got into a car. They also went on both sides of the street as well as the trail through the woods. Here is the thing, Chris had been drinking, got into a fight; at some point he must have lost his shoe (was not found).. They think he walked through the woods at night with one shoe, fell on a vine, passed out or whatever. No COD. Dogs were searching within 10-15 feet.
Was crazy! A home owner smelled the decomp. Family had also searched many, many times as he always walked through the woods. Pretty sure they also brought Chris's dog out. Either the dogs & everyone missed him (Oct/Nov) or someone moved him.

As for Dr Teleka Patrick, they think she stumbled down a hill into the water, dogs did not track her scent

This is not all that uncommon. Live find dogs will take you on the live scent. If something like that happens they are not trained to switch scents. It is not a failure on their part but on the humans. We need to then look around and figure out why our dog suddenly loses the scent mid trail when they had been going strong. Then you either search with people or bring in hrd dogs.


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[MyBelle]

I have always thought they want to believe it was a kidnapping because it is the 'best' possible outcome. There is a chance their child is alive and well, with another family, just waiting to be found. Any other scenario and their child perished in the woods or where ever they were.

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Or the parent secretly believes the other parent or their family is behind it.

JMO

 

[4senthia]

I just visited ember's page again and read the posts by sarx.
Sorry I didn't actually realize just how inefficient some "trained" dogs can be. Seems to be a big difference in their training as well as their handlers.
jmho

eta: thanx for coming over here to address the dogs SARX!
I've often wondered how all those dogs missed Chandra Levy's remains and then a man out with his own dog quite a bit later located them

 

[Hatfield]

This is not all that uncommon. Live find dogs will take you on the live scent. If something like that happens they are not trained to switch scents. It is not a failure on their part but on the humans. We need to then look around and figure out why our dog suddenly loses the scent mid trail when they had been going strong. Then you either search with people or bring in hrd dogs.


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I agree.

I think most people that have never worked with working dogs OR who have not seen them in action really dont quite understand much about how complex it is.

We should Never Ever say that just because search dogs were brought in the person is not there.

They are just a "tool" and so many variables come into play.
Some dogs are great and some not so good.
Just as some Handlers are great and some not so good.

I had owned a hunting bird dog who was a Brittany Spaniel. So I learned quite a bit how a dog uses its nose and how amazing dogs can be. I also learned very quickly that the Handler (me) is the biggest problem in using a dog. The handler has to be able to read the signs of what the dog is telling us.
If you dont have a good handler then even the best nosed dog may not help much.

 

[SleuthMom]

I have serious concerns about this case.

1. NO signs that he fell or was near the creek, NO footprints, NO missing boots, NO items of clothing, NO toy...nothing. NOT even a single item or print!

2. NO signs that he was abducted. The family was the ONLY people at the campsite in a place with ONE road access there and ONE road out. No cars were heard or screams or ANYONE seen at the campsite.

3. NO signs that he was attacked by a wild animal. NO signs he was dragged, NO blood, NO prints. Nothing.

4. NO signs that he was indeed at the campsite. Does anyone place Deorr at the campsite besides family? PLEASE, I am NOT blaming or pointing fingers, I would like to know if there are ANY witnesses who saw Deorr at the campsite.

This is heartbreaking...I cannot even eat properly....

 

[eileenhawkeye]

I have always thought they want to believe it was a kidnapping because it is the 'best' possible outcome. There is a chance their child is alive and well, with another family, just waiting to be found. Any other scenario and their child perished in the woods or where ever they were.

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I can't see someone lurking around a campground looking for a 2-year-old to adopt, love, and care for. If someone took Deorr, it's more likely to be a sexual predator IMO.

 

[IDTater]

Hi everyone! I'm a new user that landed here because I'm from Idaho and this kiddo's disappearance has just drawn me in. The discussion and insight shared here is way better than all of the speculation and innuendo on local FB profiles!

IIRC, it was mentioned here but it caused a huge flurry of activity on the local sites - a guy from Wyoming claimed he could help with the investigation. In a new article, the sheriff's office says that they are aware of the post but won't comment on whether they are investigating it.

Link to a post about the strange comments:https://www.facebook.com/idahomissi...5389163232318/701169499987616/?type=1&theater

Story addressing the comments:http://www.idahostatejournal.com/me...cle_462fa72e-3039-11e5-a81d-9b5deb717c34.html

 

[cvaldez1975]

i have not followed this because i have a two year old boy... and i have been following too many kids and it is making me incredibly sad

i hope they get an asnwer on this sweet baby boy.

 

[flourish]

Welcome new posters (& lurkers). And a special hello from fellow Idahoan me! I don't live there anymore, but you can take the girl out of Idaho, but she'll still eat lots of (Simplot) potatoes! Lol. I wish it were under better circumstances, but we're glad you're here.


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[Mickshawn]

~~Yeah, this kid also popped up on a road.

Yeah, we had a two year old that was three miles away in under eight hours. Luckily she popped up on a road because we never would have gone that far based on her age. Change out practices in a hurry.

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