ID - Doomsday Cult Victims - Joshua Vallow, Tylee Ryan, Tammy Daybell, Charles Vallow *Arrests* #73

[indicolite22]

I'm not as suspicious about the 2 lawyers...but I am suspicious about Eldon. It very well might be a random event (as the family believes), but I keep stumbling over the odds.

I don't think the neighbor's death is connected. Did he have any contact with Chad? How would Chad have induced pulmonary embolism?

 

[KonaHonu]

I know this didn't come up in trial, but I've been mulling over the death of Eldon Clawson, Chad's neighbor. Eldon 'patrolled' the water ditches in the area. He was a busybody by all accounts. And he ended up dead of a pulmonary embolism less that a week after JJ was buried on Chad's property.

Obituary for Eldon Clawson at Flamm Funeral Home

I know this is bordering on 'conspiracy theory' status, but what are the odds? Chad posted his infamous 'raccoon' message to Tammy. Is it because he was concerned about what Eldon might have seen?

That is very strange. I really not much of a conspiracy theorist but we've now got at least 4 deaths around these folks related to lung or other issues (Tammy, Alex, Eldon, Joe Ryan). I hope LE is at least doing a basic investigation.

I remembered the other day that there was a mysterious death outside an LDS temple in the Phoenix area around the time they first started looking for the kids. At the time it was dismissed as unrelated. I'm going to try to dig up the information about that again and see if I can make any connections given vast amount we know now.

 

[Niner]

@Niner they recessed at noon today, so this may be all

Thank you for reminding me of that! I went to look for more tweets this morning...

 

[KonaHonu]

How would Chad have induced pulmonary embolism?

It would be interesting to hear some expert comments on this. PE can be produced by forcing air through the skin into the veins at high pressure. It does not take much, as little as 50-60 psi aimed where teh vessels are close to the surface.. This mechanism has caused some industrial accidents and there are OSHA regulations in this area.

I've been looking into this tonight trying to figure out if there might be ways to cause PE that are not usually seen so may not be recognized by LE or physicians.

Here is a link listing causes of of air embolism: Air Embolism: Causes, Symptoms, and Diagnosis

It lists 5 potential causes:
1. Injections for air into arteries or veins. A needle injection would leave an injection mark but using compressed air would not
2. Lung trauma
3. Explosions and blast injuries
4. Blowing air into the vagina during oral sex (I did NOT make that up but it could only possibly apply to Tammy)
5. Scuba diving

In scuba diving there are two mechanisms to cause air embolism. The first most people have heard of, the "bends" when nitrogen dissolves in you blood at depth and then forms bubbles if you surface too fast. That would not apply here. The other is a lung over-expansion injury which can occur if you surface without exhaling and the compressed air in your lungs explodes the small air sacs.

I could imagine CAUSING a PE by overexpanding someone's lungs by forcing compressed air in. It does not take much, 30 psi would be enough and that can easily be produced by a tire pump.

Air embolisms can also cause heart attacks (think Joe Ryan)

Air embolisms are rare. Most occur from scuba diving. And yet we have several in close proximity to Chad!

Yes, Tammy did not die of an embolism but there would be plenty of edema associated with lung over expansion.

Very weird if it is all coincidence!

 

[SteveS]

"Air embolisms are rare. Most occur from scuba diving. And yet we have several in close proximity to Chad!"

Well, no. What we are seeing is multiple cases of pulmonary embolisms. That's not the same thing as an air embolism (an AE would be a specific, rare, probably non-natural subset of pulmonary embolisms).

While this PE stuff all looks suspicious, it might be overreaction. In looking closer ....

A pulmonary embolism is simply a blood clot that got stuck in an artery in the lung (that's why it's labeled "pulmonary"), blocking blood flow to part of the lung. But it could have come from anywhere, and embolisms typically begin in the legs.

Death by blood clot (PE) isn't incredibly rare. In US, there's one death that way every 5 minutes, or about 100,000 a year. The frequency is rising. Blood clots in and of themselves are a normal part of how the body works, but sometimes the body doesn't break them down into small enough pieces like it should, and then the clot gets in the way of blood flow and causes major injury or death.

There are MANY possible underlying causes that might lead to a PE death. Here's one list of risk factors for pulmonary embolisms:

• Genetic conditions that increase the risk of blood clot formation
• Family history of blood clotting disorders
• After surgery or injury (especially to the legs) or orthopedic surgery
• Situations in which mobility is limited, such as extended bed rest, flying or riding long distances, or paralysis
• Previous history of clots
• Older age
• Cancer and cancer therapy
• Certain medical conditions, such as heart failure, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD), high blood pressure, stroke, and inflammatory bowel disease
• Certain medicines, such birth control pills and estrogen replacement therapy
• During and after pregnancy, including after cesarean section
• Obesity
• Enlarged veins in the legs (varicose veins)
• Cigarette smoking

Less commonly, they can also arise from poisoning, including non-intentional ones such as carbon monoxide. Any type of poison in the blood leads to normal clotting as the body tries to get rid of the poison. Any type of inflammation can potentially cause blood clots.

 

[KonaHonu]

While this PE stuff all looks suspicious, it might be overreaction. In looking closer ....

A pulmonary embolism is a blood clot that got stuck in an artery in the lung (that's why it's labeled "pulmonary"), blocking blood flow to part of the lung. But it could have come from anywhere, and embolisms typically begin in the legs.

Death by blood clot (PE) isn't incredibly rare. In US, there's one death that way every 5 minutes, or about 100,000 a year. The frequency is rising. Blood clots in and of themselves are a normal part of how the body works, but sometimes the body doesn't break them down into small enough pieces like it should, and then the clot gets in the way of blood flow and causes major injury or death.

There are MANY possible underlying causes that might lead to a PE death. Here's one list of risk factors for pulmonary embolisms:

• Genetic conditions that increase the risk of blood clot formation
• Family history of blood clotting disorders
• After surgery or injury (especially to the legs) or orthopedic surgery
• Situations in which mobility is limited, such as extended bed rest, flying or riding long distances, or paralysis
• Previous history of clots
• Older age
• Cancer and cancer therapy
• Certain medical conditions, such as heart failure, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD), high blood pressure, stroke, and inflammatory bowel disease
• Certain medicines, such birth control pills and estrogen replacement therapy
• During and after pregnancy, including after cesarean section
• Obesity
• Enlarged veins in the legs (varicose veins)
• Cigarette smoking

Less commonly, they can also arise from poisoning, including non-intentional ones such as carbon monoxide. Any type of poison in the blood leads to normal clotting as the body tries to get rid of the poison. Any type of inflammation can potentially cause blood clots.

Yes, normally it would not be suspicious to me but I wonder in this case. Alex's death was so convenient! As I detailed in my post, there are also air embolisms and even a coroner may not determine the difference. Both block blood flow so it would be easy to see evidence of blocked blood flow and assume blood clots.

There is an organization (DAN) associated with Duke University that functions as the "poison control center" for diving injuries. Most physicians outside of coastal areas are completely unfamiliar with diving injuries and call DAN when presented with a potential diving injury. It would not be unreasonable to think that a coroner/ME in Idaho/Utah/Arizona might completely miss a lung injury with an unusual cause such as inflating with a compressor or bicycle pump.

I know it's farfetched and I am generallt skeptical of conspiracies. But we've already decided there was a conspiracy here so exploring how far-reaching it might have been I don't think is too crazy!

On a personal note, a coworker and friend died of a PE a few years ago. He was in very good shape, an athlete, fit, no health issues. Collapsed waiting for his short flight home after a 4 hour airplane flight. 60 years old. So I agree, it happens.

 

[MissTilly]

Noticed a tweet stating the jury was provided with the "loin-fire" novella,the tweet included the text.

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I wonder if the general feeling of the jurors is amused, appalled, what?

jmho ymmv lrr

rbbm
my guess would be a little column A, a little column B
moo

 

[887sMtreme]

Yes I am only referring to this cult and sitting back knowing these murders are occurring.

Par for this course only.

Praying for dark zombies deaths aka targeted enemies....is conspiritual.

They all had varying knowledge of Chad and Lori's actions....and did nothing to prevent.

Oh my: *conspiritual* is a fabulous word for this ostensibly religiously grounded mess.

 

[KonaHonu]

rbbm
my guess would be a little column A, a little column B
moo

I have not read the loin fire novella nor do I intend to. But I do think it is grounds for reversable appeal. It does not address any facts at issue at trial. It, at best shows the parties have a romantic relationship. But they are married so that is stipulated. It should have been excluded as irrelevent and prejudicial.

 

[Nikynoo]

Odd that you would post this today…it’s the first day that it has even occurred to me that she may have been there with AC in that church parking lot waiting for the right time

She was in Hawaii, but I can see her being there by phone/video call.

 

[k-mac]

I have not read the loin fire novella nor do I intend to. But I do think it is grounds for reversable appeal. It does not address any facts at issue at trial. It, at best shows the parties have a romantic relationship. But they are married so that is stipulated. It should have been excluded as irrelevent and prejudicial.

But the problem with that is you miss important elements.
Chad has stated that his writings although stated as fiction are based biographical.
The stuff inthe book does relate to his thought processes and actions involving Lori and their future.

How do you know it isn't relevent to the trial if you don't read it though? (or invest in others ahem cough!... who did read it ..and kindly shared it )

There is very little come out in trial that we didn't already know.
Our preconceptions have all been confirmed.
Am surprised actually just how much did find its way to us before trial.

 

[aafromaa]

Interesting thought.
She was smart enough to alibi herself hard for Tammy's death though.

Out of state...both times.

Arizona for the attempted shooting and Hawaii ?? for the actual killing.

Well I did forget about her being in Hawaii when TD died….though I’m not clear on when she went or returned. Do you have those dates?

And I don’t think I knew she was in AZ when TD was shot at…what did I miss that told us that?

 

[Nikynoo]

Lori was in Arizona at the time of the shooting and in Hawaii for her death.

BUT, I’m wondering if you have to be physically present? What if she was there electronically? Eg by phone or video call?

 

[Nikynoo]

I don't think the neighbor's death is connected. Did he have any contact with Chad? How would Chad have induced pulmonary embolism?

I would be interested to know whether it was the same coroner that deemed the cause of death as Tammy. I would also be interested to know if there was an autopsy.

 

[k-mac]

Well I did forget about her being in Hawaii when TD died….though I’m not clear on when she went or returned. Do you have those dates?

And I don’t think I knew she was in AZ when TD was shot at…what did I miss that told us that?

ZP stated that they (ZULEMA INCLUDED) stood around and prayed together for Tammys death physically in AZ.
ZP heard Lori ring chad and check how their 'casting worked'......and she went off her head in the phonecall to chad saying that idiot can't do anything right.
It is assumed she is referring to ALex.

 

[k-mac]

"Air embolisms are rare. Most occur from scuba diving. And yet we have several in close proximity to Chad!"

Well, no. What we are seeing is multiple cases of pulmonary embolisms. That's not the same thing as an air embolism (an AE would be a specific, rare, probably non-natural subset of pulmonary embolisms).

While this PE stuff all looks suspicious, it might be overreaction. In looking closer ....

A pulmonary embolism is simply a blood clot that got stuck in an artery in the lung (that's why it's labeled "pulmonary"), blocking blood flow to part of the lung. But it could have come from anywhere, and embolisms typically begin in the legs.

Death by blood clot (PE) isn't incredibly rare. In US, there's one death that way every 5 minutes, or about 100,000 a year. The frequency is rising. Blood clots in and of themselves are a normal part of how the body works, but sometimes the body doesn't break them down into small enough pieces like it should, and then the clot gets in the way of blood flow and causes major injury or death.

There are MANY possible underlying causes that might lead to a PE death. Here's one list of risk factors for pulmonary embolisms:

• Genetic conditions that increase the risk of blood clot formation
• Family history of blood clotting disorders
• After surgery or injury (especially to the legs) or orthopedic surgery
• Situations in which mobility is limited, such as extended bed rest, flying or riding long distances, or paralysis
• Previous history of clots
• Older age
• Cancer and cancer therapy
• Certain medical conditions, such as heart failure, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD), high blood pressure, stroke, and inflammatory bowel disease
• Certain medicines, such birth control pills and estrogen replacement therapy
• During and after pregnancy, including after cesarean section
• Obesity
• Enlarged veins in the legs (varicose veins)
• Cigarette smoking

Less commonly, they can also arise from poisoning, including non-intentional ones such as carbon monoxide. Any type of poison in the blood leads to normal clotting as the body tries to get rid of the poison. Any type of inflammation can potentially cause blood clots.

thats right. A vague cause of death.

It is possible all these embolisms could be caused by nefarious reasons.

The common reason is not necessarily the right reason.

I have little faith these days in ME reports.

 

[Ruminations]

Am I confused? If I understand correctly, there is no such thing as a "mental health" (or insanity) defense in Idaho. Idaho Code 18-207 says "Mental condition shall not be a defense to any charge of criminal conduct."

So I don't understand this back and forth debate over her not choosing such a defense, when one was not possible at all. Am I missing something?

You're right about ID not having an insanity plea available.

But to a certain extent there always is a mental health defense when mental processes are part of the elements defining a crime.

That is why prosecutors were so careful to make sure their charges could stick even if she made such a defense.

She had to have be shown to intended to take the conspiratorial or murderous actions. So she woukd have to be capable of forming intent, a mental function. Sometimes it is also called being criminally responsible for actions.

The prosecution already has an expert lined up to say she was able to form intent as far as he can tell from the available information. He hasn't evaluated Lori because she didn't volunteer to be evaluated by the prosecutors expert (I don't blame her) and Lori hasn't been compelled by court order.

MOO

 

[Ruminations]

Everything about this belief system and behavior of the adults seems so pre-teen level silly. The fact that it all led to the murdering of children and adult/s (and one near-murder) is so very beyond rational thinking.

jmo

I agree.

I wonder if there are ages of people more likely to be initially drawn into cults? And if this group wasn't older than average?

Even AB seemed a little old for this stuff. And she was a relative baby. Melani's age slipped my mind.

vulnerable people shouldn't be preyed upon, no matter their age. Ian was right, IMO, when he testified that everyone was taking advantage of Melani.

(But what's his story? Did he decide that he was going to see this marriage through because he rather rashly made a promise? Or is he also gaining something at her expense? I suppose he could have been diving into the cult and marriage simultaneously and is now feeling the need to rescue Melani rather than GTFO. Its a mystery.)

MOO

 

[Ruminations]

It would be interesting to hear some expert comments on this. PE can be produced by forcing air through the skin into the veins at high pressure. It does not take much, as little as 50-60 psi aimed where teh vessels are close to the surface.. This mechanism has caused some industrial accidents and there are OSHA regulations in this area.

I've been looking into this tonight trying to figure out if there might be ways to cause PE that are not usually seen so may not be recognized by LE or physicians.

Here is a link listing causes of of air embolism: Air Embolism: Causes, Symptoms, and Diagnosis

It lists 5 potential causes:
1. Injections for air into arteries or veins. A needle injection would leave an injection mark but using compressed air would not
2. Lung trauma
3. Explosions and blast injuries
4. Blowing air into the vagina during oral sex (I did NOT make that up but it could only possibly apply to Tammy)
5. Scuba diving

In scuba diving there are two mechanisms to cause air embolism. The first most people have heard of, the "bends" when nitrogen dissolves in you blood at depth and then forms bubbles if you surface too fast. That would not apply here. The other is a lung over-expansion injury which can occur if you surface without exhaling and the compressed air in your lungs explodes the small air sacs.

I could imagine CAUSING a PE by overexpanding someone's lungs by forcing compressed air in. It does not take much, 30 psi would be enough and that can easily be produced by a tire pump.

Air embolisms can also cause heart attacks (think Joe Ryan)

Air embolisms are rare. Most occur from scuba diving. And yet we have several in close proximity to Chad!

Yes, Tammy did not die of an embolism but there would be plenty of edema associated with lung over expansion.

Very weird if it is all coincidence!

I am anxious to hear if there is anyway to cause a Pulmonary Embolism and time it. A lot of things cause them, but it's not, AFAIK, like you can be given a potion at 8:00 and be counted on to die hours later.

So please, it would be very valuable information to find out if a PE can be triggered to occur at a certain time.

An Air Embolism is different. It's not what Alex or Eldon died from. They haven't occurred close to Chad.

MOO

 

[SteveS]

I would be interested to know whether it was the same coroner that deemed the cause of death as Tammy. I would also be interested to know if there was an autopsy.

When Alex died, LE was all over it. By that time, they knew the kids were missing, and L, C, and A were under suspicion. LE reacted like we have here - they were there the day he died (he was taken to the hospital), and couldn't imagine him simply dying of some natural cause in that context. Figuring he had been taken out of the mix by someone, they had an autopsy right away, running tests and looking for anything to indicate that he might have been killed. Autopsy was apparently done in Phoenix, so not by some backwater doofus. They turned up nothing, and it wasn't because they didn't try.

It's been suggested in this forum that he might have been a very early victim of covid, before anyone knew what it was. The symptoms would fit.

But they also fit a plain old PE that might happen to a middle-aged guy who sat in a truck driving long distance, who had high blood pressure and arterial disease, who was perhaps quite a bit overweight (they said he was too heavy to roll over, when he was dying and needed CPR), and was under a lot of stress.

Lori Vallow's brother had Narcan in system but died of NATURAL CAUSES

Maricopa County Medical Examiner has concluded that Alex Cox (left), 51, died of natural causes. Cox, the brother of 'cult mom' Lori Vallow (right), fatally shot her estranged husband Charles Vallow.

www.dailymail.co.uk