ID - Doomsday Cult Victims - Joshua Vallow, Tylee Ryan, Tammy Daybell, Charles Vallow *Arrests* #73

[KonaHonu]

Yes, on autopsy they would see a clot blocking a pulmonary artery and "downstream" of the clot they see damaged lung tissue from lack of blood flow. There is no assumed - they would.open that blood vessel and extract and measure the clot.

No. The blood clot is still in situ when the autopsy is carried out, it doesn’t disappear. In PE the clot gets stuck cutting off the air supply to the lungs.

Thank you. I admit it seems far-fetched that they figured out a way to cause PE's but Alex's death was just so convenient and then we hear of another PE death of the neighbor.

 

[cottonweaver]

How did Chad know that none of his followers would tell Tammy about his prophecy that she would die before she turned 50? Some of those people were in contact with Tammy on a regular basis.

Good point.

I assumed that most of his followers were loyal to Chad more than Tammy and they were okay with notion of him remarrying and her not being around.
even less dependent associates like Rowe - who's alleged to have become close to Emma & Tammy - claimed that he'd been saying this for quite a while. Julie doesn't appear to have told Tammy either.

I'm also convinced - from hearing all the testimony - that most of Lori's closest female friends also accepted idea of Charles Vallow being removed. ( I don't mean that they'd be willing to commit acts of violence themselves, but okay with it being one step removed & not asking too many questions later)

 

[cottonweaver]

How do we know that they did not? In MOO I believe that TD was battling depression in her last months or more - not just a mild depression but a deep rooted one that caused her to lose sleep and withdraw from her family by going to bed earlier and earlier. I had thought that she had probably read CVs email about CD’s affair and that caused it but perhaps one of these people did tell her that CD was telling other she would die before turning 50. We really don’t know how much she was aware of regarding CV’s words or actions or even his distorted religious views.

Because of the evidence given by the insurance broker I have swung back to Tammy not having read the e mail from Charles.
If she'd read the email about Chads affair wouldn't she become even more suspicious when Chad later suggests she increase her LI policy?

 

[indicolite22]

Interestingly, the host of Mormon stories, a fantastic you tube channel, says he was approached by Prior to be an expert on the LDS church.

He has deeply covered how going "deep" into the theology does logically lead to off shoots like Chad's. Even though "headquarters" does not teach it to the general churchgoer. Off shoots think the church has liberalized to apostasy. The church when pushed says the cults are apostasy. And leaders might get excommunicated for claiming to be s prophet.

When push comes to shove, reading deep and studying what does not get taught in the church, LDS literature supports the off shoots, even if "headquarters" does not.

That's why there are conflicting emotional responses to cases like this. "That's not real LDS," competes with "The LDS church is a cult itself and caused it."

What I have learned is, they are both right! I get the impression most Mormons never learn know or care about the "extreme" teaches embedded in scripture, but not encourage by the church.

It's not a matter of interpretation, either. Like"Spate the rod and spoil the child," which justifies or forbids beating children, depending on how you read it.

Books like "The second Comforter," a cult favorite, spend a lot of ink saying, "they didn't tell you this, but...."

BTW, a lot of this stuff also is ancient. Such as possession. Jesus apparently did castings. But personally being a prophet gives the church pain, but their own scriptures back it up.

So things could get interesting if Chad's defense is, this is no cult, this is mainstream!

MOO

Chad created his imaginary zombie world to justify the deaths (murders) to his followers. He was making up evil possessions and zombie names as he went along. He wasn't led to them by the Church.

 

[cottonweaver]

I know this didn't come up in trial, but I've been mulling over the death of Eldon Clawson, Chad's neighbor. Eldon 'patrolled' the water ditches in the area. He was a busybody by all accounts. And he ended up dead of a pulmonary embolism less that a week after JJ was buried on Chad's property.

Obituary for Eldon Clawson at Flamm Funeral Home

I know this is bordering on 'conspiracy theory' status, but what are the odds? Chad posted his infamous 'raccoon' message to Tammy. Is it because he was concerned about what Eldon might have seen?

HTC did a podcast interviewing a former neighbour. I haven't listened to it in a long time but Eldon Clawson is mentioned.
Separately in one of the Brandon Boudreaux custody filings - after he's suffered attempt on his life - he makes reference to other unspecified victims ( He's just suspicious)

Also, after the scandal with the Coroner & the Tammy death, the number of deaths by PE also dropped. Lauren Mathias mentioned that.

At the same time, I also appreciate it's human nature for Rexburg folks to start questioning all local deaths even when they're - probably- just coincidences.

 

[cottonweaver]

IF she wasn't present for Charles' murder, perhaps she believed Lori's version. IMO she knew about Lori's religious delusions, but didn't suspect that her and JJ's lives were in danger from her own Mother and uncle. Tammy also had no idea what Chad was planning for her.

I re-read the transcript of T's interview with LE after CV's murder, just because it's on the WS timeline page as I scrolled thru the T Lines

The comments about the bat concerned me. She says something wtte of - uncle Alex taught me to keep metal bat by my bed if I'm ever home alone. ( not verbatim, it's wtte)

 

[indicolite22]

Good point.

I assumed that most of his followers were loyal to Chad more than Tammy and they were okay with notion of him remarrying and her not being around.
even less dependent associates like Rowe - who's alleged to have become close to Emma & Tammy - claimed that he'd been saying this for quite a while. Julie doesn't appear to have told Tammy either.

I'm also convinced - from hearing all the testimony - that most of Lori's closest female friends also accepted idea of Charles Vallow being removed. ( I don't mean that they'd be willing to commit acts of violence themselves, but okay with it being one step removed & not asking too many questions later)

JR even claimed that (early on) she independently had the same vision about Tammy dying young. To me Chad was just fantasizing about being single again and used his "vision" as a pick up line, until he found someone (Lori) willing to actively make it happen.

Before his murder, Charles was predicted to die in an accident a few times. Chad's followers didn't openly doubt his visions, they waited for the predictions to come true (and the accident predictions didn't). IMO the followers believed the entire thing about possessions and the need to cast out evil spirits.

At least some of the followers saw Tammy's death as a fulfillment of Chad's prophecy.

 

[cottonweaver]

I would be interested to know whether it was the same coroner that deemed the cause of death as Tammy. I would also be interested to know if there was an autopsy.

It's a bit late in the day for me to start making notes but I should so I can re-find the links.

Anyway, in one of Lauren Mathias' more recent Lives or podcasts she says wtte that there was a scandal after the coroner bodge on the TD case, that PE was being used for many local non-autopsied deaths & that they'd had their knuckles rapped. Since then, the number of PE deaths has decreased.
I know that's vague, sorry. ( When I'm listening to this kind of show am usually doing something else at the same time. )

 

[KMouse]

Yep. Lori's many texts and emails are beginning to show an explicit, ongoing conspiracy in which people are to be gotten rid of, that was in place and pursued over many months and in which those people then were made dead. Lori's own words are showing knowledge of and participation in that conspiracy.

Once she is proven to be part of the conspiracy, then who did what murderous acts (and whether she got her own hands dirty or not) is no longer an excuse. What any of them did, as part of that conspiracy, is on all of them.

The noose is now around her neck, and tightening.

How come poor people or people without SS or insurance plans were never considered "dark". If she truly believed this doomsday crap how come she just didn't tell anyone when they asked? She went to a great level of deception to hide it.

 

[cottonweaver]

JR even claimed that (early on) she independently had the same vision about Tammy dying young. To me Chad was just fantasizing about being single again and used his "vision" as a pick up line, until he found someone (Lori) willing to actively make it happen.

Before his murder, Charles was predicted to die in an accident a few times. Chad's followers didn't openly doubt his visions, they waited for the predictions to come true (and the accident predictions didn't). IMO the followers believed the entire thing about possessions and the need to cast out evil spirits.

At least some of the followers saw Tammy's death as a fulfillment of Chad's prophecy.

Jumping off that post...

what do you - or anybody - think about likelihood of Chad having murdered anyone if he had not met Lori?


IMO she got the taste for violence & murder long before Chad. ( Joe Ryan obviously. Those reminiscences from relatives about amusement over deliberately killing the cat. I wouldn't be surprised if there were even more skeletons in the family closet. More than the ones we've already heard about. )

 

[cottonweaver]

Interestingly, the host of Mormon stories, a fantastic you tube channel, says he was approached by Prior to be an expert on the LDS church.

He has deeply covered how going "deep" into the theology does logically lead to off shoots like Chad's. Even though "headquarters" does not teach it to the general churchgoer. Off shoots think the church has liberalized to apostasy. The church when pushed says the cults are apostasy. And leaders might get excommunicated for claiming to be s prophet.

When push comes to shove, reading deep and studying what does not get taught in the church, LDS literature supports the off shoots, even if "headquarters" does not.

That's why there are conflicting emotional responses to cases like this. "That's not real LDS," competes with "The LDS church is a cult itself and caused it."

What I have learned is, they are both right! I get the impression most Mormons never learn know or care about the "extreme" teaches embedded in scripture, but not encourage by the church.

It's not a matter of interpretation, either. Like"Spate the rod and spoil the child," which justifies or forbids beating children, depending on how you read it.

Books like "The second Comforter," a cult favorite, spend a lot of ink saying, "they didn't tell you this, but...."

BTW, a lot of this stuff also is ancient. Such as possession. Jesus apparently did castings. But personally being a prophet gives the church pain, but their own scriptures back it up.

So things could get interesting if Chad's defense is, this is no cult, this is mainstream!

MOO

It's a really good channel
Obviously I'm not LDS but I could also understand when the host said that ex-comm'ing too many of them can also back fire & also the sheer number of extremist splinter groups.


PS that national expert on cults was on CourtTv last week & he said there are more cults now than there have ever been & growing ( Dr Hassan, he was talking about all cults, not specific to LDS. Said biggest number was in US. He also quoted stats on the % of population who still believe in possession. It was a big number in the 20s )

 

[KMouse]

I have not read the loin fire novella nor do I intend to. But I do think it is grounds for reversable appeal. It does not address any facts at issue at trial. It, at best shows the parties have a romantic relationship. But they are married so that is stipulated. It should have been excluded as irrelevent and prejudicial.

I disagree. It shows their duplicty and motive to remove the "obstacles". If they wanted to have an affair and then leave their spouses we wouldn't be here. They conspired to kill their spouses and gain the insurance money.

 

[indicolite22]

Jumping off that post...

what do you - or anybody - think about likelihood of Chad having murdered anyone if he had not met Lori?


IMO she got the taste for violence & murder long before Chad. ( Joe Ryan obviously. Those reminiscences from relatives about amusement over deliberately killing the cat. I wouldn't be surprised if there were even more skeletons in the family closet. More than the ones we've already heard about. )

Chad's light/dark scale was used to put targets on their enemies. IMO Chad would have used it to manipulate and harm people even without Lori. We don't know when exactly the zombie idea was born. It took a religious fanatic to believe it and an unscrupulous person to help Chad put his theory into practice.

 

[cottonweaver]

Chad's light/dark scale was used to put targets on their enemies. IMO Chad would have used it to manipulate and harm people even without Lori. We don't know when exactly the zombie idea was born. It took a religious fanatic to believe it and an unscrupulous person to help him put theory into practice.

But not everybody he or they decided was dark was killed.

It's also a classic cult estrangement( For the leader to maintain control of his /her followers as they build and shore-up the cult. Followers cut ties with families and stop associating with people who challenge them or their ideas)

Don't get me wrong, I think Chad's a malevolent murderer but I wonder if he would have had the courage to act - murder- without meeting Lori

 

[KMouse]

Jumping off that post...

what do you - or anybody - think about likelihood of Chad having murdered anyone if he had not met Lori?


IMO she got the taste for violence & murder long before Chad. ( Joe Ryan obviously. Those reminiscences from relatives about amusement over deliberately killing the cat. I wouldn't be surprised if there were even more skeletons in the family closet. More than the ones we've already heard about. )

Hard to say. Chad viewed himself as an up-and-comer cult guru. He thrived on the attention he was getting. Lots of affairs start out with people getting attention from somebody else. Lori had been divorced a couple of times already and knew how that would financially impact her. Lori and Chad's paths crossed and they were attracted to each other for a reason. I don't think it would have happened with anyone else because AC played a big role in this and that wouldn't have happened with just anyone.

 

[raja]

But not everybody he or they decided was dark was killed.

It's also a classic cult estrangement( For the leader to maintain control of his /her followers as they build and shore-up the cult. Followers cut ties with families and stop associating with people who challenge them or their ideas)

Don't get me wrong, I think Chad's a malevolent murderer but I wonder if he would have had the courage to act - murder- without meeting Lori

I question that as well. I think he killed Tammy but had Alex close by to finish the job if he could not do it.

 

[Gut_feeling]

So the ME faked findings in the autopsy --- to?

Cover for Lori and Chad?

That's implausible.

The only possible murder/suicide is one that was attempted and not detected but the PE also killed him or killed him first.

MOO

I may be mistunderstanding your post, but just to clarify, I wasn't suggesting the M.E. did anything wrong, I was reaponding to a message regarding air embolisms (I think I forget the exact wording but it was something along the lines of "many" blood clots found in the lunch, and medical examiner had removed one to show an example of what was found.

Anyway, I completely agree Only adding that IMO, the PE might not have killed him yet, and he poisoned himself somehow with something that did not show up. Only Zulema has said that he had been short of breath and not feeling well. I assumed it could be covid based on his reported symptoms and clotting in the lungs. But what if its just like when Chad described Tammy as being sick prior to him killing her. Maybe he was sick, maybe he wasn't, maybe he went to Mexico for secret meds to kill himself, or maybe he picked up zpacks. The coincidence of the blessing being read right before, and the way zulema was conveniently not him but calls her son to "check on" Alex THE MOMENT that he's dying, ugh, I don't know!!!

 

[Ruminations]

Trying to get a couple of things straight in my mind….

When in October 2019 did LV & MB go to Hawaii? They were already there when AB arrived but when did they get there? It had to be on or before the 18th/19th if she was there when TD died.

What day did AB join them? AB says LV told her shortly after she got there that TD had died in her sleep about a week ago. It couldn’t have been a week ago since LV returned to Rexburg on Wed the 23rd - the day of TD’s Rexburg Memorial which was only 4 or 5 days after TD died. AB said they spent most of their time on the beach & went for a bike ride so it could have been that she was there only a day or two before LV returned to Rexburg but do we know what day she got there?

How long did AB stay with LV in Rexburg before returning to MO? AB & MB flew back to ID on Sun 10/27. It’s hard to tell how long she was there from what I heard of her testimony. She said she spent the night and they went to the Temple & that LV threatened to cut her up in pieces that evening when she was headed upstairs to pack to leave the next day. So it sounds to me like she stayed Sun night and they went to the temple on Mon & she left on Tue the 29t. But she talks about CD sometimes leaving in the evenings and then returning to spend the night as if it was more than just two nights. Do we know when she left Rexburg?

While none of this matters too much in LV’s trial, it would help me as I’m still trying to decide how involved I think AB or MB or others in the Casting Circle were in all this.

I guess I cannot understand why you wouldn’t make a phone call to LE when you first realized back in the summer that something is off and CD is talking about marrying LV when TD dies before she’s 50 and LV is talking about evil spirits and weapons and her brother killed her husband. Or why you don’t at least talk to GD when you see him after his mother has died and you know his dad is with LV and at least tell him your suspicions that CD & LV were involved in TD’s death. Or why you don’t at least call LDS leadership and tell them that there are a couple of kooks teaching really strange things contrary to the LDS doctrine and people around them are dying and ask them to look into it.

And I’m still having a really hard time thinking MB/MP was not aware of all of this and even participated in the attempt on BB.

I believe that both MP & AB are truly sorry now that they were ever even associated with LV or CD. But at the moment I’m leaning toward feeling that MP should be charged with the attempted murder of BB. I’m not sure that anything AB did would be criminal- unless it is careless disregard for life by not going to LE before TD died as it was already clear to her that was where this was heading. But I’m pretty sure that if either of these two had gone to LE with what they did know that TD would still be alive today and it certainly would not have taken so long for LE to find the remains of Tylee & JJ.

Having said that….I also believe that someone in AB’s life needs to get her some help. I think she is riddled with guilt and that she needs help to work through this before it destroys her. Hopefully the LDS Church is reaching out to her to give her some guidance to find a path to forgiveness and a way to move forward. I know nothing about her family but she seems to be facing this all alone and I do feel bad for her.

Wow. I couldn't agree more that the LDSchurch could help with many of the living victims. The dead victims are devout LDS members. It's too late for them. But the living victims were either loved ones of the dead or directly affected by the apostasy Chad was excommunicated for.

As for the other time lines, I will give an answer if someone hasn't beaten me to it when I'm out of Saturday night mode.

MOO

 

[Ruminations]

I may be mistunderstanding your post, but just to clarify, I wasn't suggesting the M.E. did anything wrong, I was reaponding to a message regarding air embolisms (I think I forget the exact wording but it was something along the lines of "many" blood clots found in the lunch, and medical examiner had removed one to show an example of what was found.

Anyway, I completely agree Only adding that IMO, the PE might not have killed him yet, and he poisoned himself somehow with something that did not show up. Only Zulema has said that he had been short of breath and not feeling well. I assumed it could be covid based on his reported symptoms and clotting in the lungs. But what if its just like when Chad described Tammy as being sick prior to him killing her. Maybe he was sick, maybe he wasn't, maybe he went to Mexico for secret meds to kill himself, or maybe he picked up zpacks. The coincidence of the blessing being read right before, and the way zulema was conveniently not him but calls her son to "check on" Alex THE MOMENT that he's dying, ugh, I don't know!!!

Lol, im sorry if I misunderstood you- I thought you were deep in conspiracy world.

As I should realize you know, air embolism is not the same as blood clot pulmonary embolism. I was trying to clarify that, because they do seem commingled on this forum.

I shouldn't have mashed you up with the prepper victims, in conspiracy world, or with the people here who think all embolisms are the same: pulmonary or air.

MOO- and apologies

- Ruminations

 

[k-mac]

Except an AIR embolism is not what killed him.
"Embolism" just means something is floating around in the circulation that should not be there. It can be air, but it can also be fat (can happen after long bone fractures), amniotic fluid, or (most commonly) a clot that has broken loose. The clot broken loose and lodged in the lungs is what killed Alex. He was at extremely high risk for this given his occupation and adding the insane amount of driving he did.

I've been a nurse 40+ years and have seen plenty of pulmonary embolisms - including one that nearly took my daughter's life. I cannot think of a single way to cause one intentionally.

Now- did Chad and Lori have a motive to kill Alex? Hell, yes! But I honestly believe his death was a coincidence.

That is, accepting the ME report.

We could have accepted Tammy Daybells ME report too......


There is no chance Alex died from a natural event. IMO.

Yet again an ambiguous term that still does not tell the why.
That is what is getting tangled up here in technicality.

ME reports are signed off on the opinion of 1 person.
It is a travesty and I will keep harping on about it.

moo