IDIs On This Forum?

[BOESP]

I am going with rage also, since there are no intruders that I have seen to date. However, the Thomas theory of slamming her into the bathtub, according to many reports, does not work for the head injury. This type of injury requires blunt force - remember we spoke of this on the inimitable crimelibrary board. And it really does look like someone hit her with something. So who hit her and why.

I recall reading that Patsy would check on JB with the flashlight because the light in her room was not reachable by the door - if I am wrong, please correct me-. If this true, this could place the flashlight in her hands at that time. I forget where I read this. AMES DO YOU KNOW?????

I'm still out on the head injury. It could also have been caused by JonBenet falling or being pushed or shoved into or down on something. Some have said the damage was similar to head injuries in a car crash. If so, they are not caused by someone swinging something but by blunt force trauma from the human contacting an immovable object. So, I'm reserving a decision on that.

 

[BOESP]

... The knocked out piece of JonBenet's skull is long and narrow. That edge is probably 18" or so off the floor which means JonBenet's head could have taken the brunt of the fall. Her hand or shoulder would not have broken her fall. Maybe if she was standing just 6" closer to the door when this happened, she would still be alive today.

I believe the displaced skull section was 1.75 x .5 inches near the back and on the right side. The autopsy photo looks like it is slightly off-center and to the right to my eye, with a small fracture extending down and back into the occipital region and the main part of the fracture running to the front and down the forehead near the temple area.

 

[BOESP]

Oh I understood that. Sometimes the way the responses post can lend a bit of confusion, I knew right away we agree on that.:dance:

 

[DeeDee249]

I'm still out on the head injury. It could also have been caused by JonBenet falling or being pushed or shoved into or down on something. Some have said the damage was similar to head injuries in a car crash. If so, they are not caused by someone swinging something but by blunt force trauma from the human contacting an immovable object. So, I'm reserving a decision on that.

Keep in mind in a car accident there is no "immovable object" with regards to the car and passengers. Even if a car hits a stationary object such as a wall or pole, the car itself carries the force of the speed at which it was traveling combined with the weight of the vehicle itself. After impact, the car recoils from what was hit. The passengers also are in motion, and they are in motion for a brief time AFTER impact, as they bounce around inside (even if seat belts are worn there is still some movement).
There isn't much that I disgree with ST on, but this is probably one of the few things. I don't think hitting a tub, sink, or faucet, even if she was thrown against it, would have taken out a chunk of skull like that. JBR just doesn't weigh enough nor would she fall from high enough, to hit with enough force to do that. It's physics.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

There is currently ZERO forensic evidence that was deposited by an intruder.

Really?

• Shoeprint found only in basement not matched to anyone.
• Male DNA found only on JBR, in most conspicuous place, is of sufficient quality to be entered into CODIS, yet not matched to anyone.
• Brown animal hair found only on JBR not matched to anything.
• Cord found only on JBR not matched to any roll or other use
• Tape found only on JBR not matched to any roll or other use
• Brown cotton fibers found only on JBR not matched to anything.
• Pubic hair found only on blanket covering JBR, not matched to anyone.
• Palm print found only in basement, not matched to anyone.
• Injuries consistent with a stun gun, not matched to any stun gun or other device in the house.
• Injuries consistent with blunt force trauma, not matched to any object in the house.

Even a skeptic can see there are too many unmatched items close to JBR to rule out intruder. In reality, obviously the amount of forensic evidence potentially left by an intruder is fairly high.

 

[UKGuy]

Really?

• Shoeprint found only in basement not matched to anyone.
• Male DNA found only on JBR, in most conspicuous place, is of sufficient quality to be entered into CODIS, yet not matched to anyone.
• Brown animal hair found only on JBR not matched to anything.
• Cord found only on JBR not matched to any roll or other use
• Tape found only on JBR not matched to any roll or other use
• Brown cotton fibers found only on JBR not matched to anything.
• Pubic hair found only on blanket covering JBR, not matched to anyone.
• Palm print found only in basement, not matched to anyone.
• Injuries consistent with a stun gun, not matched to any stun gun or other device in the house.
• Injuries consistent with blunt force trauma, not matched to any object in the house.

Even a skeptic can see there are too many unmatched items close to JBR to rule out intruder. In reality, obviously the amount of forensic evidence potentially left by an intruder is fairly high.

Holdontoyourhat,

Why do you even bother, you are scraping the evidential barrel here. Remember the first rule: Link the evidence to an external source, you have failed to do this, you can walk into any house and find unknown items, that cannot be sourced or where people have forgotton their origin.

The evidence not matched to any roll, may not be matched simply because there was never any roll involved, whomever used the material did so specifically for this reason!

Unknown identity does not mean proof of an intruder, it simply means as yet not linked, do you get that, also, if the intruder left all the above items, then where is all the intruder's biological evidence left as the intruder navigated around the house, where are the hairs, clothes fibers, skin debri deposited upon JonBenet, e.g. not her clothing, how come the intruder left the former but not the latter?

There is none absolutely ZERO forensic evidence linked to an intruder, everything in your list is either ambiguous or has already recieved an explanation.

Find some forensic evidence that excludes the Ramseys and so demonstrates a link to an intruder, and I will take it seriously, otherwise reciting unidentified evidence simply adds to the RDI theories, it does not detract from them.

.

 

[Solace]

Really?

• Shoeprint found only in basement not matched to anyone. Where are you Holdon. Shoeprint could have been any of the Boulder Police. They wore Hi Tecs.
• Male DNA found only on JBR, in most conspicuous place, is of sufficient quality to be entered into CODIS, yet not matched to anyone. BEEN ANSWERED AD NAUSEUM
• Brown animal hair found only on JBR not matched to anything.Patsy had a pair of Beaver Skin Boots, more than likely hers.
• Cord found only on JBR not matched to any roll or other use. What
• Tape found only on JBR not matched to any roll or other use. NO???Patsy used this tape for her pictures.
• Brown cotton fibers found only on JBR not matched to anything.MUST HAVE BEEN THE KILLERS?
• Pubic hair found only on blanket covering JBR, not matched to anyone. PATSY'S ARM HAIR. THIS IS OLD NEWS
• Palm print found only in basement, not matched to anyone.MELINDA'S PALM PRINT. THIS IS OLD NEWS
• Injuries consistent with a stun gun, not matched to any stun gun or other device in the house. EVEN LOU SMIT SAYS, NOT DEFINITE, IT IS THE CLOSEST HE COULD COME TO IT.
• Injuries consistent with blunt force trauma, not matched to any object in the house. NO????? WE HAVE THE FLASHLIGHT IN FULL VIEW AND IT MATCHES EXACTLY ACCORDING TO FORENSIC SPITZ.

Even a skeptic can see there are too many unmatched items close to JBR to rule out intruder. In reality, obviously the amount of forensic evidence potentially left by an intruder is fairly high.

COME ON HOLDON. YOU HAVE TO DO BETTER THAN THIS.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

COME ON HOLDON. YOU HAVE TO DO BETTER THAN THIS.

You don't know and can't verify any of your claims for any of these items. Its just stuff made up. PR's beaver skin boots and arm hair. Really, thats rich (lol).

 

[BOESP]

Keep in mind in a car accident there is no "immovable object" with regards to the car and passengers. Even if a car hits a stationary object such as a wall or pole, the car itself carries the force of the speed at which it was traveling combined with the weight of the vehicle itself. After impact, the car recoils from what was hit. The passengers also are in motion, and they are in motion for a brief time AFTER impact, as they bounce around inside (even if seat belts are worn there is still some movement).
There isn't much that I disgree with ST on, but this is probably one of the few things. I don't think hitting a tub, sink, or faucet, even if she was thrown against it, would have taken out a chunk of skull like that. JBR just doesn't weigh enough nor would she fall from high enough, to hit with enough force to do that. It's physics.

We agree on the general workings of an automobile impact but it is not the same as another human swinging a much smaller object, delivering a sharp overhand blow to the head of a stationary or moving child. The length of the fracture, to me, suggests not just an eggshell fracture but the type fracture created when you crack that shell against something or, possibly, a combination of sharp force strike and dull cracking. :waitasec:

I don't know if Thomas's scenario is correct or not. JonBenet could have hit a door knob, door stop, toilet screw cover, faucet, a brick, anything with an edge to it, or other projection not necessarily in her bathroom. I think his theory fits more with the injury shown in the autopsy photos and described in the report than does any theory about a striking blow alone. Similar objects could be anywhere in the home.

I do think Thomas would have additional undisclosed information as to scene and setting, thus be in a better position to speculate on where and how the head wound might have occurred. You may have that knowledge too, but I don't so I can only speculate.

 

[Solace]

You don't know and can't verify any of your claims for any of these items. Its just stuff made up. PR's beaver skin boots and arm hair. Really, thats rich (lol).

Holdon. The pubic hair was determined to be Patsy's arm hair. I am not making it up and check this forum and check the facts. Come on.

Patsy has a pair of Beaver skin boots. That is fact. Read the NE transcripts. It comes from her own mouth.

Melinda's palm print has been identified also as the one on the basement door. This is basic.

 

[BOESP]

Really?

• Shoeprint found only in basement not matched to anyone.
• Male DNA found only on JBR, in most conspicuous place, is of sufficient quality to be entered into CODIS, yet not matched to anyone.
• Brown animal hair found only on JBR not matched to anything.
• Cord found only on JBR not matched to any roll or other use
• Tape found only on JBR not matched to any roll or other use
• Brown cotton fibers found only on JBR not matched to anything.
• Pubic hair found only on blanket covering JBR, not matched to anyone.
• Palm print found only in basement, not matched to anyone.
• Injuries consistent with a stun gun, not matched to any stun gun or other device in the house.
• Injuries consistent with blunt force trauma, not matched to any object in the house.

Even a skeptic can see there are too many unmatched items close to JBR to rule out intruder. In reality, obviously the amount of forensic evidence potentially left by an intruder is fairly high.

Holdon, you're leaving out the "reasonable" factor, which means something can be reasonably assumed to be or not to be so. There are reasonable explanations for the above that point to some being artifacts of an earlier date. Disposing of evidence, no matter who committed the act, also is a reasonable expectation. Unless there is a DNA sample the public isn't aware of, your statement about DNA is moot. The remainder of what you mention is purely speculation and is not evidence.

 

[Ames]

I am going with rage also, since there are no intruders that I have seen to date. However, the Thomas theory of slamming her into the bathtub, according to many reports, does not work for the head injury. This type of injury requires blunt force - remember we spoke of this on the inimitable crimelibrary board. And it really does look like someone hit her with something. So who hit her and why.

I recall reading that Patsy would check on JB with the flashlight because the light in her room was not reachable by the door - if I am wrong, please correct me-. If this true, this could place the flashlight in her hands at that time. I forget where I read this. AMES DO YOU KNOW?????[/quote]

Solace,
I don't recall ever reading that my own self, but I will go and check out Patsy's interviews, and see if I can find something about it.

Ames

 

[Ames]

I am going with rage also, since there are no intruders that I have seen to date. However, the Thomas theory of slamming her into the bathtub, according to many reports, does not work for the head injury. This type of injury requires blunt force - remember we spoke of this on the inimitable crimelibrary board. And it really does look like someone hit her with something. So who hit her and why.

I recall reading that Patsy would check on JB with the flashlight because the light in her room was not reachable by the door - if I am wrong, please correct me-. If this true, this could place the flashlight in her hands at that time. I forget where I read this. AMES DO YOU KNOW?????

Solace,
I found this..but I will keep searching.

1 PATSY RAMSEY: I had laid that out
2 or done something and the light was on here.
3 TOM HANEY: The laundry room light
4 was on here?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: The light here.
6 Yes. I was working there.
7 TOM HANEY: Okay, did you turn it
8 on?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't remember.
10 That could have been one that was left on, I
11 don't know. Sometimes we leave that one on.
12 TOM HANEY: Sometimes you do?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: (Nodding).
14 TOM HANEY: But you don't recall
15 that morning coming down into the dark or --
16 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
17 TOM HANEY: So to the best of your
18 recollection, it was on, you think?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: I would say either
20 that light was on or there were also some
21 sconces right here on the stairwell, which were
22 dimmed and oftentimes we would leave that on,
23 because it was dimly lit as a night light sort
24 of lighting area.
25 TOM HANEY: Okay.
0025
1 PATSY RAMSEY: So something I am
2 sure was on, because it wasn't pitch black
3 walking down.
4 TOM HANEY: How about JonBenet's
5 room, what was the condition of the room?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I remember
7 racing over and her door was just kind of
8 slightly ajar.
9 TOM HANEY: And you're
10 demonstrating what, three--
11 PATSY RAMSEY: 3, 4 inches, you
12 know.
13 TOM HANEY: Okay. Is that the way
14 you left it the night before?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, that's usually
16 the way I left it.
17 TOM HANEY: And is there a
18 particular reason?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I closed it
20 because if I did leave a light on out here, it
21 would shine pretty brightly into her room so I
22 close to make it a little darker in there. But
23 I want to leave it so if she needed me or called
24 out or something I could hear her, you know.
25 TOM HANEY: So that was the normal
0026
1 thing?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: That was the normal
3 thing to do.
4 TOM HANEY: Did you happen to look
5 in?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: No. At that time, I
7 did not.
8 TOM HANEY: Did you happen to
9 notice if there was any light coming from
10 inside?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: I didn't notice.
12 Just nothing seemed unusual.

So, it seems that her room was always lit up enough, with light coming from the hall, that she would be able to check on JB without a flashlight...but I will keep searching.

 

[BOESP]

...
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I closed it
20 because if I did leave a light on out here, it
21 would shine pretty brightly into her room so I
22 close to make it a little darker in there. But
23 I want to leave it so if she needed me or called
24 out or something I could hear her, you know.
25 TOM HANEY: So that was the normal
0026
1 thing?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: That was the normal
3 thing to do.

That's an interesting comment. Patsy says she leaves the door ajar so she can hear her, yet the night of the killing, she didn't hear a thing. Yet, Burke, says he heard talking and noise about midnight (my paraphrasing).

 

[Ames]

3 TOM HANEY: Let me just stop you
4 there. When you pushed the door open, was there
5 a light on in the room?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: There was -- her
7 lamp light was not on. You know, there was
8 enough light that I could tell she wasn't in her
9 bed. Now, whether that was coming from the
10 laundry area, whether daylight was breaking or
11 whether there was -- you know, sometime we left
12 a little night light here on in her bathroom, so
13 you know, I -- all I know is I was able to see
14 that there is no one lying in that bed and the
15 covers are ruffled.



<SNIPPED>


16 TRIP DeMUTH: And we talked or you
17 talked a lot about night lights with JonBenet
18 last time. What about for Burke, did he sleep
19 with any lights?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, no, not in his
21 room, but I usually leave the bathroom light on.
22 Yeah. Like this one.

The light that she left on was in the laundry room...not the hall light, as I put in my original post about this subject, but she would usually leave JB's and Burke's bathroom light on. So, sometime she left the laundry room light on...and sometimes, JB's bathroom light. I have yet to read where she used a flashlight sometime to check on her....but, I am still searching.

 

[Ames]

That's an interesting comment. Patsy says she leaves the door ajar so she can hear her, yet the night of the killing, she didn't hear a thing. Yet, Burke, says he heard talking and noise about midnight (my paraphrasing).

Yeah, I know. Seems she has selective hearing....

 

[Solace]

Yeah, I know. Seems she has selective hearing....

AMES,

You are just great to do all that research. I think you are wonderful, so thank you very much and it is always great info.

 

[Rino]

You don't know and can't verify any of your claims for any of these items. Its just stuff made up.

So was the intruder

 

[Solace]

So was the intruder

I agree Rino. And the posts I made were not made up. There is no point in my making anything up. I would not do that.

 

[Ames]

AMES,

You are just great to do all that research. I think you are wonderful, so thank you very much and it is always great info.

Thanks Solace...you are so sweet. I found this portion of the interview..where Patsy says that she never used a flashlight. I have had to snipped some of it for length.


2 TOM HANEY: Okay. The next group of photos
3 and these are not numbered --
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).
5 TOM HANEY: -- but they show flashlight.
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).
7 TOM HANEY: A black metal string light
8 type --
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).
10 TOM HANEY: -- flashlight. Do you
11 recognize that?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: It looks similar to one that
13 John Andrew gave John for Christmas, birthday or
14 something.

<SNIPPED>


18 TRIP DeMUTH: And I wanted to clarify that
19 a little bit. Do you remember where it was
20 stored?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, the best I recall it
22 was in like one of those junk drawers there in
23 the bar area.
24 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. And I wanted to flip
25 back to photo 380, right there.
0515
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Right, yeah, one of those
2 drawers.
3 TRIP DeMUTH: One of the drawers that's
4 depicted in 380?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
6 TRIP DeMUTH: Do you remember which drawer?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I, I most recently
8 remember it being, you know, right in this
9 drawer.
10 TRIP DeMUTH: The drawer that is open?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: That's open there, yeah.


<SNIPPED>


20 PATSY RAMSEY: Where was this flashlight
21 found?
22 TRIP DeMUTH: Well, do you remember when
23 you came in on, in April, they showed you a
24 picture of the flashlight? Do you recall that?
25 You may not.
0516
1 PATSY RAMSEY: No, not exactly.
2 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. This was on the
3 kitchen counter?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh.


<SNIPPED>

24 PATSY RAMSEY: It doesn't make sense to me.
25 I mean, like I said, usually it was kept in that
0517
1 drawer in there.
2 TRIP DeMUTH: Uh-huh (yes).
3 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I don't know.
4 TRIP DeMUTH: Why would that be out?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know.

<SNIPPED>

17 TRIP DeMUTH: Uh-huh (yes). Did you guys
18 use this flashlight much?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: I didn't, no.
20 TRIP DeMUTH: Who did?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: John used it.
22 TRIP DeMUTH: What did he use it for?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know, looking in the
24 garage and the car or something like that.
25 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. Had you ever seen it
0518
1 on the kitchen counter before?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Not that I recall.
3 TRIP DeMUTH: Would it have struck you as
4 unusual, or would that not be outside the realm
5 of possibilities, given the habits of the
6 family?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: It seems like it would have
8 been unusual to have made it all the way into
9 the kitchen, because usually if somebody was
10 using the flashlight, they were -- John was
11 looking at something in the garage or under the
12 car or something like that.
13 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
14 PATSY RAMSEY: But he might, you know, I'm
15 sure you must have asked him if he...
16 TOM HANEY: And maybe I missed it, do you
17 know when you last saw it in the drawer?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I'm not for sure.
19 TOM HANEY: Do you remember ever putting
20 batteries in it or buying batteries for it,
21 somebody says woop, the flashlight is low, get
22 us some --
23 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
24 TOM HANEY: -- C, D cells?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: No, it just kind of wasn't
0519
1 my, my thing, you know.
2 TOM HANEY: Okay. How about, do you recall
3 of using that during say a power outage or to
4 check on the kids at night, anything along those
5 lines?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I don't remember that.


Apparently Patsy never even TOUCHED that flashlight, and she says herself that she doesn't remember ever using it to check on the kids at night...(UNLESS...she is lying, of course).