IL IL - Debbie Fijan, 10, DuPage County, 11 Feb 1966 - #2

[Cubby]

I kind of thought so........

PTV snippet from google news archives:

Vote Slated for Record DuPage County Budget

[SIZE=-1]Pay-Per-View - Chicago Tribune - ProQuest Archiver[SIZE=-1] - Nov 14, 1965[/SIZE]
[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Du Page county supervisors Wednesday are expected to approve a record ... last year The increase was attributed to the fact that 1966 is an election year ... [/SIZE]

 

[Cubby]

Another thought regarding the coroners comment the wounds leaned towards being indicative of a female perp. How do I say this? I don't believe LS was effeminate in a non hetersexual way, but I do believe he was in tuned with his femine side and probably had more femine traits than masculine. In other words he was not a 'mans man' by any means.

His reaction and statements to LE while being interrogated are demonstrative of that more feminate type of personality.

I can see LS attacking Debbies eyes and continuing to strike her based on an emotional reaction similiar to what a female might be experienceing rather than the typical male rage kind of thing.

I hope that makes sense.

 

[Abbey5]

Abbey5,

Excellent post and excellent points. I'd have to take a guess, but I think the coroners role back in the 60's was much differently defined as it is today. It may have been an election year ( I don't know if it was or not) and he may have been voicing his frustrations the area was growing faster than LE could keep up...... This is where Shadowangel's knowledge would be helpful because he is much more experienced with many cold cases, where this is really the first I have delved into so deeply.

The coroner may have known from his experience Jury's would not return with a guilty verdict without a murder weapon according to 1960's standards. We know differently today based on forensic science.

I disgree with the Feb 20th statement these were traits of a female perp so to speak. It seems limited to me, as if a statement was being made like men are more 'wild wild west' angry in how they commit murders and a passionate but angry female would have lost it in such a manner. I don't want to come across as saying it was a sexist statement because I hate labeling in that manner.... I try to remember the times were so different then..... and LE's training, education and resources were so limited then at least in DuPage.

I do find myself curious though to see if this Coroner had any ties to the Klein family. For no other reason than if we found some perhaps it would mean they did a less than what could have been done to solve this case.
I'm not saying a tie would be definative proof but it would give me hope the possibility exists.

I remind myself of what Commander Mark Edwalds told me about this case in my last telephone call to him. "we are aware of the mistakes made on this case back in the day" - paraphrased. That gives me hope.. it tells me they know what went wrong and are reviewing each step that was not taken properly back then......

I also think that libel/slander suit LS filed furious back then put the breaks on any further media info until LE had more proof according to 1966 standards.

JMO

I did take into consideration that this was the 60's and keeping this in mind I still thought it was odd for him to make these statements so early in the case. All of the evidence was still at the state lab. And the statement he made about having a case built before questioning a man sounded rather odd to me. I understand where you are coming from Cubby and I appreciate your input on this.

Yes, it would be nice to hear from Shadowangel. I've missed his input on this case.

This week I'll have to make some time to do more reseach on a few things that have been brewing in my mind.

I hate to even type this but I truly hope that the mistakes that Mark Edwalds is talking about is not the evidence,

 

[Abbey5]

Another thought regarding the coroners comment the wounds leaned towards being indicative of a female perp. How do I say this? I don't believe LS was effeminate in a non hetersexual way, but I do believe he was in tuned with his femine side and probably had more femine traits than masculine. In other words he was not a 'mans man' by any means.

His reaction and statements to LE while being interrogated are demonstrative of that more feminate type of personality.

I can see LS attacking Debbies eyes and continuing to strike her based on an emotional reaction similiar to what a female might be experienceing rather than the typical male rage kind of thing.

I hope that makes sense.

I really thought the coroners comment was not accurate...actually I thought he was crazy to say that and that is why I didn't comment. If he was trying to say he thought LS was effeminate and he could have done it...well, then thats another thing all togther but I really think he was saying he thought it might have been a woman who did it.

I, too can see LS attacking Debbies eyes and continuing to stike her. This attack was very personal. I really don't think it has anything to do with the fact that he is male.

 

[Cubby]

I wasn't clear when I posted. I did not think the coroner thought LS was effeminate, I think he has an effeminate style personality based on what we read. And that is not even the word I want to use. LS strikes me as the type to be more emotionally sensitive than the average male.
I hope that clarifies. I couldn't find the right word.

I think way back Shadowangel made a comment about thinking there was some kind of rift between the detectives and coroner in this case. I'd have to go back and reread.... but I vaguelly remember reading that.

I've heard from Shadow' he's busy with real life stuff and not much time to be here, but hopefully he will have some free time soon. I miss his input too.

 

[mom2six]

How much happened as written and how much is dramatized to make for a good story?

I had the same thoughts myself while reading it. I think it is due to the long rambling passages she writes about her own life, which make me feel she is focused more on herself in this situation rather than her research and sharing credible results. I guess, the book is titled "My Life Among the Serial Killers," but it still left an odd impression. The details of ROM's crimes were just ghastly. It is so hard to understand how he's just completely forgotten, when the likelihood of other victims is so real.

 

[SunnieRN]

Another thought regarding the coroners comment the wounds leaned towards being indicative of a female perp. How do I say this? I don't believe LS was effeminate in a non hetersexual way, but I do believe he was in tuned with his femine side and probably had more femine traits than masculine. In other words he was not a 'mans man' by any means.

His reaction and statements to LE while being interrogated are demonstrative of that more feminate type of personality.

I can see LS attacking Debbies eyes and continuing to strike her based on an emotional reaction similiar to what a female might be experienceing rather than the typical male rage kind of thing.

I hope that makes sense.

I wasn't clear when I posted. I did not think the coroner thought LS was effeminate, I think he has an effeminate style personality based on what we read. And that is not even the word I want to use. LS strikes me as the type to be more emotionally sensitive than the average male.
I hope that clarifies. I couldn't find the right word.

I think way back Shadowangel made a comment about thinking there was some kind of rift between the detectives and coroner in this case. I'd have to go back and reread.... but I vaguelly remember reading that.

I've heard from Shadow' he's busy with real life stuff and not much time to be here, but hopefully he will have some free time soon. I miss his input too.

That is one thing that really makes me think about ROM also, every article I've read has said that he leaves an impression of someone that is both male/female. Traits, characteristics, looks, etc. I know that is not what you were saying about LS Cubby, but I have wondered if ROM was a person who had both x and y chromosomes? Could this maybe explain part of his killing ritual of slitting the eyelids as well as the type/severity of his crimes? Scary thought eh??

As for LS, it had been stated that his wife 'wore the pants in the family', which makes me wonder about his Mother also. Maybe he has a resentment of women, if in fact he feels they are stronger emotionally, than he, and tried to always control his destiny, as they knew 'what was better for him'?
He may have felt helpless and/or inadequate in his daily functioning, which could lead to anger. I know the pictures they found at the school were only of women, but I wonder what he burned (wife burned) at home?

I had the same thoughts myself while reading it. I think it is due to the long rambling passages she writes about her own life, which make me feel she is focused more on herself in this situation rather than her research and sharing credible results. I guess, the book is titled "My Life Among the Serial Killers," but it still left an odd impression. The details of ROM's crimes were just ghastly. It is so hard to understand how he's just completely forgotten, when the likelihood of other victims is so real.

Exactly, as I think she arranged the story to fit into her experiences, rather than the other way around. We already heard from the FBI (full blooded Italian officer, in relation to conversations, evidence and circumstances). This makes me think of this as a book of fiction, with some truth thrown in. This is IMHO and not from knowledge however. I am not a book reviewer or authenticator.

 

[Abbey5]

I wasn't clear when I posted. I did not think the coroner thought LS was effeminate, I think he has an effeminate style personality based on what we read. And that is not even the word I want to use. LS strikes me as the type to be more emotionally sensitive than the average male.
I hope that clarifies. I couldn't find the right word.

I think way back Shadowangel made a comment about thinking there was some kind of rift between the detectives and coroner in this case. I'd have to go back and reread.... but I vaguelly remember reading that.

I've heard from Shadow' he's busy with real life stuff and not much time to be here, but hopefully he will have some free time soon. I miss his input too.

I understood what you were saying Cubby. I didn't think you thought the coroner was saying LS was effeminate. And I do agree with you that it does seem that LS is more emotionally sensitive than the average male.

My post was probably not clear...I was a bit tired. Please bear with me here as I try to explain myself...I'm running on very little sleep for the last three days. I think the coroner had a motive behind his statement. I think he was saying that LS couldn't have done it because he is a man. I think that was his only reason for making this statment.

And I'm having a very hard time believing this statement by the coroner. He starts off the article with stab wounds to the outer eyes raised the speculation that a woman could be involved and then goes onto say that eye wounds and repeated stab wounds are all "accectped" patterns in murders by women. So, a woman may have been or could have been involved? And what does "accepted" patterns mean? I'm thinking you could also say repeated stab wounds could be "accepted" patterns in murders by men. I hope you get where I'm going here.

I don't know if it was because LS was emotionally sensitive or if it was because he was just so filled with anger from years of being dominated that he could not control his rage. I agree with SunnieRN that the women in LS's life seemed to wear the pants in the family.

I hope I'm making sense here if not I'm sorry and hopefully after some sleep I'll make more sense.

I'm looking forward to Shadowangels return.

 

[Abbey5]

I had the same thoughts myself while reading it. I think it is due to the long rambling passages she writes about her own life, which make me feel she is focused more on herself in this situation rather than her research and sharing credible results. I guess, the book is titled "My Life Among the Serial Killers," but it still left an odd impression. The details of ROM's crimes were just ghastly. It is so hard to understand how he's just completely forgotten, when the likelihood of other victims is so real.

Both of your thoughts on Morrison are the same as mine.

I also agree that ROM's crimes were ghastly. I don't think he has been forgotten, I think there is a reason his crimes are not more publicized. I think there are more victims out there that we may never know about. I don't know if you have read the first thread but I posted an article I had found from the Valpariso Messenger dated Dec. 31, 1973. Valpariso is located in northwestern IN. The article stated that a semi-truck driver had lost control of his truck and was pinned in his vehicle. He had received cuts to his head, ear and eye. Based on his name, age and hometown we all thought that this was ROM. It had been mentioned in other media reports that one of his previous jobs was truck driver. The thought of ROM out there in a semi makes the hairs on my arm stand up!

 

[Cubby]

Your post #335 makes perfect sense Abbey5. I think the coroner had several motives behind what he said. Three come to mind for me. 1)what your stated about a woman commiting the crime. 2)Frustration with local LE and the investigation (for various reasons) 3)Mostly it was an election year with a very high profile crime for the time and I think he threw LE under the bus for some reason. 4)Or he saw the same mistakes from early on LE see's today. JMO of course.

I think it was odd he'd make such a contradicting statement to what LE was doing to the public.

I also agree there is a reason ROM's crimes are not public. Seems awfully strange no one has tied him to other unsolved crimes, at least outside of the crime sleuthing community. Seems odd to me there is no dna anywhere that LE would put into Codis to see if they could tie him to any unsolved crimes anywhere. Granted the cost of exhuming his body would be a lot.... but one would think either DNA exists somewhere from evidence from his former crimes, or someone in his family would think my family member was a very bad man. There may be families out there with unsolved crimes that perhaps could be solved and closed - providing the families closure even though ROM is long gone.......

JMO

 

[SunnieRN]

What makes the lack of information/dna evidence strange in my mind, is the fact that his crimes were so heinous. As everyone has stated, there is a large potential for him to be guilty of other murders.

I really feel for families that have no closure. Not knowing who murdered your family member, how long they suffered, or to see justice for the crime. would be beyond frustrating. There would always be continued suspicion of others in your life, whether they seemed suspicious, had motive, or not, I would think.

Cubby you certainly are thinking about the importance of ROM's DNA in much the same way I am.

 

[SunnieRN]

I found this heart breaking. It is from a 2004 article, PTV (of course):

For a long time, Fijan could not grasp that his sister was gone.

"I guess for years after that, I would see her in many places. It was just hard to imagine that she died."

And there are memories that haunt him.

"For several years after that day, I used to have nightmares of someone chasing me with a knife," Fijan said.

Here is the link for the section that is available for free:

http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-301205/Hoping-justice-comes-for-sweet.html

 

[Chicago273]

First off my name is Frank, I have taken a great intrest in this case for the past few years now and want to say what a Wonderful job you have all done, especially Cubby for keeping the story alive. I live very close to where Debbie was murdered, and will happily post pictures on here very soon for all to see, I will go by Cubbys list plus ad a few. one correction I would like to make is that, I know for a fact that LS house on old Gary still stands, I know the house well, also, it's not 10 miles away from Benjamin School, it's actually no more than 5. Debbies families house still stands as well, although a beautiful addition was put on a few years ago, and is actually an affluent subdivision. I wil put up pictures.. LS family farm however is gone, although, the property outline is still very visable. I will add pictures of it as well to give all the followers here a better vision of the events.. everyone else, keep up the good work, this case will be solved sooner than later!

 

[Cubby]

First off my name is Frank, I have taken a great intrest in this case for the past few years now and want to say what a Wonderful job you have all done, especially Cubby for keeping the story alive. I live very close to where Debbie was murdered, and will happily post pictures on here very soon for all to see, I will go by Cubbys list plus ad a few. one correction I would like to make is that, I know for a fact that LS house on old Gary still stands, I know the house well, also, it's not 10 miles away from Benjamin School, it's actually no more than 5. Debbies families house still stands as well, although a beautiful addition was put on a few years ago, and is actually an affluent subdivision. I wil put up pictures.. LS family farm however is gone, although, the property outline is still very visable. I will add pictures of it as well to give all the followers here a better vision of the events.. everyone else, keep up the good work, this case will be solved sooner than later!

Welcome to WS Frank! Thank you so much for offering to take the pictures and using my list of suggestions. Thanks for letting us know the house LS lived in after moving from the farm still stands. I hadn't driven by there to see if it was or not. I used to work at Starck Realtors ( now Prudential Starck I think...) over there on Bloomingdale Road near Bloomingdale and Schick. I left the business when I became a single mom. The weekend and evening hours were too much. I've asked both John V and John L in that office if they remembered anything about the farm or murder but John V only started in the business in the early 70's. John L in the late 70's. Vi Morrisroe used to work there too, but she is deceased so no asking her. I've asked everyone I can possibly find who has been in the area and haven't found anyone who remembers. On an OT note I found out my step mom lived near where the Grimes sisters were found... I still dig wherever I can for any info on this case..... I can only find people in this area back to 68/69.

I agree on your comment on the subdivision Debbie lived in on Wynn. It is one of the most beautiful subdivisions in the area. Nice large lots, beautiful ranches..... so much nicer than the 'hummer homes' as I like to call them, huge houses ontop of each other with almost no yard. I love the little ponds in some of the yards where people can have small paddle boats. Imo, it is one of the nicest remaining subdivisions in DuPage (though I haven't seen all of DuPage) It is a very serene area imo. And Wynn and the curve to the other streets is the nicest in the immediate area. IF I could, I would live there.... I love it that much.

I'm so glad you found us and have taken an interest in Debbies case and can help with the pictures!


ETA: Long before I even knew of Debbies case, I used to go get my hair cut and permed (back when perms were in in the late 80's early 90's) at someones house over on Judith LN. Which is right across from the farm property. I drove by that intersection many times before learning of Debbies case.

 

[Cubby]

I have to share this, it is a bit OT. But I thought everyone would get a kick out of this.

I had to see a chiro yesterday, and have to go again tomorrow because I pinched my ulnar nerve (back in february, nothing like waiting months to see a doctor). I know the Chiro well- she is my step mom, so shared some of Debbies case. While she was writing up my next appoint she asked me how that made me feel? To which I replied "It made me feel empowered!" She looked at me and asked, "how did the adjustment make you feel?" "Good"

Of course Debbies case was on my brain, lol hence the immediate reply about Debbies case.

I'm now a little concerned Debbies family may think I'm a bit over the top. lol I'm really not. I have never been arrested and haven't had a moving violation since 93 or 95.

I'm just a bit OCD about getting this case solved and guess that is ok.
If I have to be a bit obsessive about anything at least this is a positive in getting this case solved.

Every day is a day closer to this case being solved!

For you Debbie! You deserve no less!

 

[Cubby]

What we don't know.... and I would like to know.

Where exactly on Lies was Debbie found? It might help to know.

 

[shadowangel]

<snipped>
I'm now a little concerned Debbies family may think I'm a bit over the top. lol I'm really not. I have never been arrested and haven't had a moving violation since 93 or 95.

That reminds me of the line from the Bill Murray classic Stripes...

"Have you ever been convicted of a felony?"
"Convicted? No, never convicted."

:blowkiss:

 

[Cubby]

Lol, I've never been charged with any crime.

 

[Abbey5]

bumping for Debbie

 

[SunnieRN]

Just curious. What are the rules in relation to cold cases? Can we design a flyer with Debbies picture on it, asking for information concerning the murder or who might be involved?

It could be that someone might be willing to talk now, that wasn't in the 60's when LS's Dad was still alive. It would also generate some interest in the case and getting it solved. I wonder if Debbies family has other pictures that might be able to be placed on the flyer also?

I know in the past I have seen newspapers donate space to print flyers in the newspaper. I would think that could help generate a lot of interest. Probably a far fetched idea, but I keep thinking about it.