IL - Lt. Charles 'Joe' Gliniewicz, 52, found dead, Fox Lake, 1 Sep 2015 - #3

[Chuz Life]

Geeze....was it not reported that he was found FACE DOWN? These conflicting reports are driving me nuts. If he was incapacitated by the vest shot and fell forward, how was he then shot in the chest? If he fell backward, he had to get up from being incapacitated to be shot in the chest, underneath the vest, in order to fall forward and be found that way. JMO

Not only that, Cady but there was about 100 feet between where his body was found and where the shell casing from the first shot was found.

How does a totally "incapacitated" person travel 100 feet before the 2nd shot? And why would a trained officer not immediately grab their radio for backup the instant they are shot in the vest by someone who just grabbed their weapon from them? If the Lt was in fact shot in his vest after a struggle for his gun,. . . someone needs to explain why the Lt did not radio in to alert dispatch and others. . . while he was running that last 100 feet before he was shot again.

I have watched quite a few videos of police shootings "caught on tape" and they all have officers immediately grabbing their radios when a fight for the weapon ensues.

 

[Keefer]

You and a few others seem to always come back to using the same circular logic. The implication being that because you can't explain how something happened, it didn't happen. If the dogs had no trail no one was there, etc.We could talk about what Joe did " wrong" from our perspective based on the limited information we have.
We could talk about the physiological effects of a so called " sledgehammer" blow from getting shot while wearing a vest. Heck, I bet myth busters might have covered it. Thing is it might depend on where he was first shot. Ever beenpunched or hit in the solar plexus or the liver? Ever been punched hard somewhere else in your torso and just shrugged it off?
I really think we need to relax a bit and see what comes next. It looks like the task force has good reason to keep their cards somewhat hidden.

 

[night train]

according to a source close to the investigation, one casing was found apox 100 feet from his body. I myself am not putting any merit to unnamed sources.

Not only that, Cady but there was about 100 feet between where his body was found and where the shell casing from the first shot was found.

How does a totally "incapacitated" person travel 100 feet before the 2nd shot? And why would a trained officer not immediately grab their radio for backup the instant they are shot in the vest by someone who just grabbed their weapon from them? If the Lt was in fact **** in his vest after a struggle for his gun,. . . someone needs to explain why the Lt did not radio in to alert dispatch and others. . . while he was running that last 100 feet before he was shot again.

I have watched quite a few videos of police shootings "caught on tape" and they all have officers immediately grabbing their radios when a fight for the weapon ensues.

100 feet? or maybe the first shell casing was found 83 feet away or maybe it was actually found 56 feet from Lt. Gliniewicz's body? Does anyone posting here really know 100 percent?

How long does an "incapacitated" physically fit, adrenaline filled Police Officer who just lost his gun to a perp stay completely incapacitated from a sledgehammer-like blow to his protective vest? Not long enough to prevent him from struggling and stumbling a relatively short distance from the location of the first casing... Not long enough to prevent him from knowing he was seconds away from death.

 

[Chuz Life]

How long does an "incapacitated" physically fit, adrenaline filled Police Officer who just lost his gun to a perp stay completely incapacitated from a sledgehammer-like blow to his protective vest? Not long enough to prevent him from struggling and stumbling a relatively short distance from the location of the first casing... Not long enough to prevent him from knowing he was seconds away from death.

Officers are trained to react in certain ways to regain control of the situation. This Lt. was a training officer himself.

It seems obvious to me, that when the investigators themselves say that THEY can not rule out suicide? That means that there is sufficient evidence for that to remain as a possibility.

At least Part of the evidence has to be that the Lt. did NOT follow proper radio procedures. Neither did he follow his own protocols - assuming he knew better than to proceed in a foot chase in thick cover before any backup arrived.

 

[Chuz Life]

Just to add another thought to my prior post;

If there were any real (significant) evidence of the reported "three suspects" actually being in that area and if there is any real evidence of a struggle between one or more of them and the officer. . .

WHY then is 'suicide' still in consideration as a possible manner of death? By the investigators!

I wish that those who still think this was a homicide could answer that for me.

 

[Japple]

Just to add another thought to my prior post;

If there were any real (significant) evidence of the reported "three suspects" actually being in that area and if there is any real evidence of a struggle between one or more of them and the officer. . .

WHY then is 'suicide' still in consideration as a possible manner of death? By the investigators!

I wish that those who still think this was a homicide could answer that for me.

I'll try. Very good points BTW.

Because it sounds like all they have is the LTs call, signs of a struggle, and unknown DNA. As long as they have at least that, they can't rule suicide without significant evidence of a suicide.

I think the DNA could be significant if we knew what it was, and where it was.

 

[Cubby]

Not only is a Lt.trained to react in a certain way in the event of a struggle, they are also trained on investigation techniques in situations like this. He had at least a full 20 mintues to stage the area. The only thing they are hanging onto to keep a homicide investigation open is those 9 unidentifed transfer dna samples and those could have come from anywhere.

Personally, I don't think they'll ever be able to identify all 9 samples and for that reason this case will remain open and unsolved.

 

[Japple]

Also, they are still waiting on some other ballistics to come back.

 

[Elley Mae]

Has it been said/reported whether or not more then two shots were fired? If the one casing found was far away could that have been a shot fired from Joe while he is in pursuit? I know they found two casing but is it a fact that the gun was fired twice? or more then twice?. jmo idk The evidence of a struggle, (his uniform) must show signs of that. jmo idk

 

[TheDuchess]

Has anyone asked the question as to whether or not they are sure that he was actually WEARING the vest when it was first shot? i.e. are they sure that he didn't hang it from a tree and shoot it and then put it back on? I'm not sure how you would be able to tell one way or another or if you could actually tell.

The reason I ask is that if he committed suicide, I can't imagine him deciding to shoot himself in the vest to try to kill himself. And if he wanted to make it look like a 2nd shot, I can't imagine him leaving it on, just in case he missed or it incapacitated him enough that he couldn't pull off the 2nd shot. So I would imagine he would have removed it first. If it could be determined that he was actually wearing the vest during the 1st shot, I would lean more toward homicide.

Also, all this talk about his hand being in a "gun" formation when he was found, to me, makes absolutely no sense. If he shot himself, the kickback from the gun would have thrown his hand into some random position anyway, so if it was in a "gun" formation, it really would have been random. I actually see nothing relative about his hand being in a gun formation at all.

 

[TheDuchess]

[video=youtube;xOJ__UeVIiw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOJ__UeVIiw[/video]

Interesting. Someone posted this video on a FB article, but thought I would share. I think I just answered my own question.

FYI-it shows Johnny Knoxville shooting himself at close range while wearing a bullet proof vest. Take note of where the gun goes as well as the what his shirt looks like after removing the vest. ETA-I see now he put the shirt back on. I thought it was the shirt under the vest. My bad.

 

[Hatfield]

Just to add another thought to my prior post;

If there were any real (significant) evidence of the reported "three suspects" actually being in that area and if there is any real evidence of a struggle between one or more of them and the officer. . .

WHY then is 'suicide' still in consideration as a possible manner of death? By the investigators!

I wish that those who still think this was a homicide could answer that for me.

Im thinking the evidence of a struggle is just circumstantial evidence like scuff marks in the ground so it is not conclusive and that maybe why they cannot say with 100 percent certainty about it.

 

[TheDuchess]

Im thinking the evidence of a struggle is just circumstantial evidence like scuff marks in the ground so it is not conclusive and that maybe why they cannot say with 100 percent certainty about it.

Well...and the signs of a struggle could have been staged. That said, with all of the evidence so far, there is a lot of things that need to be disproved before jumping to suicide.

 

[Hatfield]

Has anyone asked the question as to whether or not they are sure that he was actually WEARING the vest when it was first shot? i.e. are they sure that he didn't hang it from a tree and shoot it and then put it back on? I'm not sure how you would be able to tell one way or another or if you could actually tell.

The reason I ask is that if he committed suicide, I can't imagine him deciding to shoot himself in the vest to try to kill himself. And if he wanted to make it look like a 2nd shot, I can't imagine him leaving it on, just in case he missed or it incapacitated him enough that he couldn't pull off the 2nd shot. So I would imagine he would have removed it first. If it could be determined that he was actually wearing the vest during the 1st shot, I would lean more toward homicide.

Also, all this talk about his hand being in a "gun" formation when he was found, to me, makes absolutely no sense. If he shot himself, the kickback from the gun would have thrown his hand into some random position anyway, so if it was in a "gun" formation, it really would have been random. I actually see nothing relative about his hand being in a gun formation at all.

For the first part that is an interesting thing to consider as I had not considered that he may have taken the vest off and shot at it while off. It should be easy to determine from the autopsy because he would have bruising marks as the impact is still a huge impact on the skin and muscle.

That Johnny Knoxville video is a great example of what happens. The force is tremendous and I wish they would have showed his skin marks. I have seen other videos like that and I think I remember the person ends up with severe bruising of the skin and muscle behind the vest.

For the second part about hand placement I totally agree and the Knoxville video is a perfect example. His hand flails away from the impact.
A smaller caliber weapon may have been able to hold the gun better but the officer was using a high caliber weapon like Johnny Knoxville used.

OT: I knew Johnny K. was crazy but that is really crazy.

 

[Hatfield]

I think what could help determine if there is a possibility he did like Johnny K. did is the wound could be more towards his left collar bone area or his left armpit because when squeezing a trigger the gun could have a tendency to pull in that direction if he was holding the gun like Johnny K. did.

If someone is holding a gun in that awkward position then I would think the finger pulling on the trigger would have a tendency to pull the barrel more towards the persons own left collar bone or left armpit.

So if the wound is on his right side more then I would think that would be more evidence that someone else shot at him instead.

 

[DexterMorgan]

Was he in the location for 20 minutes prior? If so then why? Didn't his shift just start? Was he eating breakfast in the area?

Now I doubt he would be doing paperwork in his car since he just hit the streets and haven't made a bust yet nor written a ticket yet.

 

[TheDuchess]

Was he in the location for 20 minutes prior? If so then why? Didn't his shift just start? Was he eating breakfast in the area?

Now I doubt he would be doing paperwork in his car since he just hit the streets and haven't made a bust yet nor written a ticket yet.

Well there could be a million reasons why he could have been there for 20 minutes, one of which was explained by Filenko. There had been complaints of vandalism, vagrancy, drug use, etc...and he took it upon himself to patrol the area. Perhaps he was walking around the area to check things out. He wore his radio on his vest (I'm glad he confirmed that) and could have actually been anywhere in that area when he saw the 3 men. He also could have been there to walk the trail for exercise, decided to have his breakfast in peace, meditate, etc... I'd be interested to know if he called anyone during that time. I'd also like to know what his regular routine was, etc...i.e. victomology type of stuff.

 

[night train]

Just to add another thought to my prior post;

If there were any real (significant) evidence of the reported "three suspects" actually being in that area and if there is any real evidence of a struggle between one or more of them and the officer. . .

WHY then is 'suicide' still in consideration as a possible manner of death? By the investigators!

I wish that those who still think this was a homicide could answer that for me.

Not only is a Lt.trained to react in a certain way in the event of a struggle, they are also trained on investigation techniques in situations like this. He had at least a full 20 mintues to stage the area. The only thing they are hanging onto to keep a homicide investigation open is those 9 unidentifed transfer dna samples and those could have come from anywhere.

Personally, I don't think they'll ever be able to identify all 9 samples and for that reason this case will remain open and unsolved.

Training means something but not everything.There's parallels... General George Armstrong Custer Westpoint graduate, Civil War hero etc..used poor judgment at the Little Bighorn . Custer also abhorred the layers of government corruption that ran from the Grant administration on down screwing both the Indians and our troops. All you have to do is follow the money. It may be interesting to see what's revealed about Fox Lake.

If my memory serves me well, dead people don't exhibit signs of hematoma, no heartbeat, no blood flow to area beneath the bullet proof vest. I'm happy to be corrected if that's inaccurate.

I saw yesterday that Lt. Joe's glasses were recovered from the scene. I'd like to know if he was wearing them and if not....where were they found???

As far as I'm concerned, all possibilities are on the table.

 

[Hatfield]

Was he in the location for 20 minutes prior? If so then why? Didn't his shift just start? Was he eating breakfast in the area?

Now I doubt he would be doing paperwork in his car since he just hit the streets and haven't made a bust yet nor written a ticket yet.

I keep seeing reference to this 20 minutes and I am trying to find out how it was determined. If anyone knows I would appreciate if anyone can explain how the 20 minutes was determined. Thanks.

 

[TheDuchess]

If this was a suicide and he did some staging, he did a fairly good job, but not quite as good as I would suspect from him. For example, he would have known the 20 minutes would pop up somewhere along the line and that would be unexplained. I guess if he had it planned for a while, he could have done the staging at an earlier time and then gone back. I would have expected a bit more thorough job from him. With all of his long term goals he set and accomplished and spent months to prepare for, I would expect him to prepare for the most important "mission" of his life to be a little better thought through.