IL - Lt. Charles 'Joe' Gliniewicz, 52, found dead, Fox Lake, 1 Sep 2015 - #4

[tcer114]

I understand their want to play nice.

But the coroner's comment does not make it an obligation on LE's part.

If LE absolutely had any real evidence and they believed that a cop killer or killers were on the loose, they would have no obligation nor expectation of keeping the possibility of this being a suicide on the table. Let alone by making that part of a public announcement.

It isn't a question of real evidence. They just don't have enough evidence to convince Rudd to make the call of homicide. And, IMO, they have a strong suspicion of what happened and are working on it. They aren't going to share more than they have to with Rudd. They will only share enough to keep the question of homicide open to investigate. And they certainly won't share with the public. But they do have to work with Rudd in order to continue the investigation withoit the whole thing breaking down.

 

[khaki]

I was poking around trying to find out more information about LE killed in line of duty and found interesting stuff on the following website:

https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/u...eloniously-killed/officers-feloniously-killed

I just decided to pull out some particularly interesting things mentioned:


◾In 2011, 72 law enforcement officers were feloniously killed in the line of duty.

Circumstances. Of these 72,

◾23 officers were killed during arrest situations.
◾15 officers died in ambush situations.
◾11 officers were slain during traffic pursuits or stops.
◾9 officers were killed during tactical situations (barricaded offender, hostage taking, high-risk entry, etc.).
◾7 officers were murdered answering disturbance calls.
◾5 officers were slain while investigating suspicious persons or circumstances.
◾1 officer was killed while conducting investigative activity (surveillance, search, interview, etc.).
◾1 officer was killed while transporting or maintaining custody of a prisoner.

Assigments:

◾49 officers who were slain in 2011 were on assigned vehicle patrol.
◾11 officers were assigned to other duties, such as special assignments or undercover, when they were murdered.
◾11 of the slain officers were off duty but acting in an official capacity.
◾1 of the slain officers was on foot patrol.
◾43 on-duty officers slain in 2011 were assisted at the time of the attacks.
◾18 on-duty officers were alone and unassisted at the time of the incidents

Weapons
◾Of officers killed in 2011, most (63) were killed with firearms. Of these, 50 were killed with handguns. (A breakdown of the types of weapons used in these slayings is provided in Table 27.)
◾5 officers had their weapons stolen.
◾3 officers were killed with their own weapons.
◾10 officers attempted to use their weapons; 17 officers fired their weapons.
◾21 officers were slain with firearms when they were 0-5 feet from the offenders.

 

[Cubby]

Wait.

What?

It's just a theory, but in my possible scenario the possible suspect/perp would be a coworker who didn't stand out because he or she would have been included in those 400 or so in the enormous manhunt.

The vest would prevent blood spatter if the shot was under the vest and their own weapon wouldn't have been fired so no explanation needed there.

It would explain how someone could get close enough to LT CG to obtain control of his weapon.

 

[Chuz Life]

If the DNA was collected from under his fingernails and is determined to belong to a stranger, it would be strong evidence someone else is involved.

I'm playing devil's advocate here but "would it be?"

What if the dna was from an encounter that was prior to the shooting that morning? Maybe from something or someone he had contact with at the gym or a diner?

I tried to express this point earlier. Just because there is a presence of dna, that doesn't automatically prove that someone was there with the LT when he was shot.

Now, if the Lt had someone else's blood and skin cells on his knuckles and clothing? And there were clear footprints in the mud that doesn't match the Lt's shoes? Then, we would have something much more of an indicator.

As it is, anyone whose dna is found on that scene could easily claim it is totally unrelated to the shooting.

 

[Cubby]

Thank you for the opportunity for me to respond to these.



Credible, only if it wasn't staged or faked by the Lt to conceal either his suicide or a staged encounter of some other type.



This is also consistent with a suicide being staged or faked to look like an police action encounter.



Insignificant data. Was it blood evidence? Where was it gathered from?




Also, likely would have been staged if the LT was trying to fake an encounter.



Weak at best. " While the K-9 used later that day specifically started tracking residue from near Gliniewicz's gun, it is not able to track residue from any specific weapon, Filenko said. He added that it's unknown how long the residue trail was in the area."

Office Filenko's own statement leaves open the possibility that the trail that was followed was possibly from another officer who may have inadvertently carried the scent away from where the body and gun was found.



I disagree.

The hard evidence that points toward suicide (for me at least) would include some of the evidence that you think points towards a murder / homicide.

- Gun Shot Residue on his hands
- Shot with his own weapon
- On location for 20 minutes or more without any radio contact or notification to dispatch of his whereabouts
- Circumstantial evidence that includes the nearing end of his career, ongoing departmental investigations, The calling off of the massive manhunt after only 14 hrs, The Lt's interest in the "Police Lives Matter" verses the "Black Lives Matter" concerns (shown in his social media), etc.

I am entirely open to any and all evidence that may come later and how that can change my conclusions entirely. This is only what I have to base my conclusions on at this time.

....Meeting with the mayor that took place less than 24 hours earlier where he expressed concern over what would happen to the Explorer group after he was gone. That was the initial red flag for me when I first posted my suicide theory a few days after he was killed.

 

[Chuz Life]

It's just a theory, but in my possible scenario the possible suspect/perp would be a coworker who didn't stand out because he or she would have been included in those 400 or so in the enormous manhunt.

The vest would prevent blood spatter if the shot was under the vest and their own weapon wouldn't have been fired so no explanation needed there.

It would explain how someone could get close enough to LT CG to obtain control of his weapon.

It's an interesting take.

Do you have any thoughts on why the LT didn't use his radio for help in the 100' between the first shot and the 2nd? Why the LT would have said "go ahead and send backup" if he already had someone there with him?

It seems like it would not be very hard for an outside force (FBI?) to verify all the officer's whereabouts prior to the shooting.

 

[Chuz Life]

....Meeting with the mayor that took place less than 24 hours earlier where he expressed concern over what would happen to the Explorer group after he was gone. That was the initial red flag for me when I first posted my suicide theory a few days after he was killed.

Yes. I forgot to add that one.

I must say, I have to fight the urge to read too much more into the Lt's involvement and apparent obsession with that program. Nuff said about that.

 

[night train]

left to be determined?
If the DNA was collected from under his fingernails and is determined to belong to a stranger, it would be strong evidence someone else is involved.

Commenting on the glasses - I swear I did not hear the word "intact" during the press conference. I recall LE wouldn't say if the glasses were on or off Lt. G, but the word "intact" didn't register.
Did everyone else who listened hear that detail stated?
If the glasses were knocked off his face, maybe foreign DNA was left on them. It would be hard to explain why someone's DNA is on another person's glasses.

Another thought - what if one of the young men in the Explorer program had a beef with the Lt. and did this to him?
A young suspect may explain the silence, why LE doesn't think the general public is in danger and the person might be a minor.

http://www.dailyherald.com/article/20151001/news/151009931/

"After the news conference, Filenko said Gliniewicz's glasses were recovered intact at the scene, but he wouldn't say if they were recovered on his body or on the ground."

Were they intact and on his face ? Someone staging the signs of a struggle,who's mind's racing a thousand miles a minute might forget to do something simple and convincing like tossing his glasses on the ground.

Might not necessarily indicate Suicide if they were found intact on his face,but I'd feel more comfortable about homicide if they were found on the ground whether intact or damaged.

 

[Cubby]

It's an interesting take.

Do you have any thoughts on why the LT didn't use his radio for help in the 100' between the first shot and the 2nd? Why the LT would have said "go ahead and send backup" if he already had someone there with him?

It seems like it would not be very hard for an outside force (FBI?) to verify all the officer's whereabouts prior to the shooting.

I don't know enough about bullets and the distance to take the 100' into consideration. I honestly have no clue if a bullet would hit the vest and drop like a bird that flew into a window or if it would have bounced off like a rubber ball (for lack of a better explanation).

I am also at a loss for how a fellow officer would not have obvious gun shot residue on his or her hands. Assuming gun shot residue from shooting a weapon would be different than that which might happen from an officer on the scene having transfer residue on their hands.

And I can't explain how the GPS on the officers cars couldn't determine what time they arrived and rule them in or out as possible poi's.

Those are some of the other cons with my possible homicide theory.

 

[Chuz Life]

I don't know enough about bullets and the distance to take the 100' into consideration.

There isn't much to know. He was shot twice, the first shot location was 100 feet from the 2nd fatal shot and location. (The shell casings were found about that far apart).

That means the Lt. either walked or ran about 100 feet between the locations of the first and 2nd shots.

So, my question is "why did he not use his radio to report his need for help during that time?"

I honestly have no clue if a bullet would hit the vest and drop like a bird that flew into a window or if it would have bounced off like a rubber ball (for lack of a better explanation).

It really depends on the trajectory of the bullet. The vests are designed to absorb and to dissipate all the energy of a direct hit. Straight on shots tend to bounce off very little. A shot that comes in at an angle and more or less glance off the vest can travel anywhere between a couple feet and much much further - depending on how critical the angle is.

I am also at a loss for how a fellow officer would not have obvious gun shot residue on his or her hands. Assuming gun shot residue from shooting a weapon would be different than that which might happen from an officer on the scene having transfer residue on their hands.

Other than the strength of the scent, there wouldn't be much difference at all.

GSR is GSR.

I can't explain how the GPS on the officers cars couldn't determine what time they arrived and rule them in or out as possible poi's.

Those are some of the other cons with my possible homicide theory.

All those things would be easy enough to investigate and to rule in or out.

 

[asac]

left to be determined?
If the DNA was collected from under his fingernails and is determined to belong to a stranger, it would be strong evidence someone else is involved.

Commenting on the glasses - I swear I did not hear the word "intact" during the press conference. I recall LE wouldn't say if the glasses were on or off Lt. G, but the word "intact" didn't register.
Did everyone else who listened hear that detail stated?
If the glasses were knocked off his face, maybe foreign DNA was left on them. It would be hard to explain why someone's DNA is on another person's glasses.

Another thought - what if one of the young men in the Explorer program had a beef with the Lt. and did this to him?
A young suspect may explain the silence, why LE doesn't think the general public is in danger and the person might be a minor.

BBM

I haven't been following things religiously so sorry if this has been covered/news article links exist but that comment made me wonder - it would be interesting to know how much ongoing investigation there has been into people he may have had a beef with. How long/how many questions have been asked on that subject...

 

[Chuz Life]

I understand their want to play nice.

But the coroner's comment does not make it an obligation on LE's part.

If LE absolutely had any real evidence and they believed that a cop killer or killers were on the loose, they would have no obligation nor expectation of keeping the possibility of this being a suicide on the table. Let alone by making that part of a public announcement.

It isn't a question of real evidence. They just don't have enough evidence to convince Rudd to make the call of homicide.

Isn't that a contradiction?

And, IMO, they have a strong suspicion of what happened and are working on it.

I understand this and I can appreciate the fact that they are working on it. I hope they are doing so in a professional and transparent manner.

They aren't going to share more than they have to with Rudd.

That's an odd thing to consider.

Why do you suppose that is the case?

They will only share enough to keep the question of homicide open to investigate.

The Question of homicide?

And they certainly won't share with the public. But they do have to work with Rudd in order to continue the investigation without the whole thing breaking down.

When only the facts are being followed and reported. . . what is it that you feel is in danger of "breaking down?"

 

[cady]

A coroner may order an Inquest, an inquiry that may involve a jury, to help determine cause, manner, and circumstances of death.

I wish that he would....JMO......especially "circumstances"

 

[TheDuchess]

Coroner Rudd stated he needs more information in order to make an official determination.
Is there a reason people believe he is leaning towards suicide versus homicide?
Rudd made a statement about not having enough information to make a determination and, for reasons unknown, some people conclude he thinks it is a suicide.
What if he's neutral and, just as he stated, needs more evidence before he makes a determination beyond a reasonable doubt.

When a medical test to determine cancer spread is conducted, a specimen is placed into a petri dish. After about five days, the doctor will be able to determine if the lymph node is infected or not. This takes time. It's not as if he's trying to determine the right or wrong answer knowing the patient wants very badly to hear the right answer.
At this point in this case, Rudd is in a similar position as the doctor.
If he can't obtain results from whatever it is that represents his petri dish, how can he make an honest determination?

In fact he actually stated he was leaning toward homicide but needed more info to rule out suicide and accident.


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[TheDuchess]

....Meeting with the mayor that took place less than 24 hours earlier where he expressed concern over what would happen to the Explorer group after he was gone. That was the initial red flag for me when I first posted my suicide theory a few days after he was killed.

The explorer program is part of the FLPD. IfJoe was retiring they would need someone else to run it.


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[TheDuchess]

BBM

I haven't been following things religiously so sorry if this has been covered/news article links exist but that comment made me wonder - it would be interesting to know how much ongoing investigation there has been into people he may have had a beef with. How long/how many questions have been asked on that subject...

Filenko stated that have been working on an in depth victimilogy for him which would include all of this info I would imagine.


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[vestigare]

I read some really great posts from the past several days. I want to touch on a few things.
-I still see no evidence this was homicide. Google-> Euler Diagrams.
-You don't have to prove someone wasn't there but you must be able to prove someone WAS there to prove homicide. Google-> Evidence of Absence
-In my opinion based on Joe's public persona he doesn't strike me as a deep thinker and obviously great thought wasn't required to convince the task force to believe this was homicide.
-The glasses were most likely found on his face or Filenko would have happily said they were not. We already have seen this task force demonstrating a severe lack of logic when answering questions. I believe the glasses were just one example of Gliniewicz not thinking deeply when planning this.
-It is an opinion that someone is kind, gentle, heroic, etc.... just as it is an opinion to think they are not or that nothing has been shown to demonstrate that they are. Google -> ad populum
-I find it interesting how personal so many are taking every little comment. Google-> Opinion
-LE in general are not the victims in this case.
-Covelli clearly had no problem discussing certain aspects of the case days before with Crime Watch Daily even while refusing to answer questions now. This is all propaganda for the task force or they wouldn't be doing interviews and useless press conferences. They are telling only enough to keep people believing this could be homicide, I believe so they can justify the expense while hoping this story goes away. Google -> Red Herrings
-"What Ifs" have a legitimate place in reasoning and foster useful debate however, they require their own set of evidence and arguing from the position of "I don't know therefore it coulda happened" is not an evidence based argument. Google-> argumentum ad ignorantiam

 

[cady]

My reply button has the swirlies, so I'll just ask here...I thought that the Explorers position was voluntary, as in not paid so why couldn't Joe have continued leading it? JMO

 

[tcer114]

Isn't that a contradiction?



I understand this and I can appreciate the fact that they are working on it. I hope they are doing so in a professional and transparent manner.



That's an odd thing to consider.

Why do you suppose that is the case?



The Question of homicide?



When only the facts are being followed and reported. . . what is it that you feel is in danger of "breaking down?"

No contradiction. The dynamics at play between the task force and Rudd are an old game. Rudd only spoke to the media because he wasn't being given any information and was not included I'm the initial meeting with the ME. He spoke out to get back at the task force. The task force must have presented enough to Rudd when they finally had their meeting to keep investigating as a homicide.At the same time, Rudd must have made it clear what they were presenting to him wasmt enough to call it homicide yet. So no one side refuted the other. Someone made them play nice.

We all know they are working on it but there is information they have that we don't which must continue to support homicide or the meeting between the task force and Rudd would not have gone as well as it did.

And no, they will only share what they have to with Rudd because they dont trust him.

The whole investigation will break down if they continue with the backbiting. I've seen it happen with this coroner and the task force before. And, LE wants him out of office so they will also hang on to his comment of suicide and then do all they can to prove homicide and make Rudd look bad to prevent his reelection. There are a lot more politics involved than anyone realizes.

 

[looking4OPH]

The reward was increased to $100,000. I thought?

Would be news to me. Where did you see this?