Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #123

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  • #261
Sadly theres not a whole lot to go on in terms of what is released to the public.

Appearently theres a good deal more info that police are sitting on and to try to analyze this case, without pertinent info would aquait to nothing more than an educated guess

Without certain questions answered such as sexual assault indication (which is also usually the case), Cause of death, forensic findings etc.. its purely speculative .

But some things to ponder that I would if I were working this case,

Id want a victimology assessment done on the girls for reasons Ill explain later

The manner of death is unknown at this time, in order to wean out false claims, i have a feeling I know how they were killed, but I wont elaborate until LE releases it

I agree with the FBI that the individual most likely lives in the Delphi area, id even venture to say possibly in the area of the park itself they usually do

So please take this as such , But to give perhaps a different spin

If i were investigating this , My first question : How did the offender initially come into contact with the victims?

Delphi Indiana has a crime rate equal to most other areas Delphi has an overall crime rate of 15 per 1,000 residents, making the crime rate here near the average for all cities and towns of all sizes in America. According to our analysis of FBI crime data, your chance of becoming a victim of crime in Delphi is 1 in 69. (Delphi Crime Rates and Statistics - NeighborhoodScout.)

With a population of 2882 in (2017) The area averages only around 5 violent crimes in any given year. Which indicates crimes more along the lines of theft and property crimes,

Hoever the odds of one becoming a victim of a crime in Delphi is roughly 1 in 578 pere 2020 data (Delphi Crime Rates and Statistics - NeighborhoodScout.)

Without knowing anything about the victims background its tough to assess things like risk taking behaviors by the girls, I can say they were walking across a bridge the looked pretty high with no safety rail but I cant say for sure, without a real assessment.

However the girls parents seemed fine with the girls going off on their own , at 1:30 pm approx indicating at least a palpable sense of comfort and safety in allowing the girls to go alone on their day off from school (It was a thursday I believe). This may have been furthered by the knowledge that the girls had a cell phone with them and would be picked up approx 2 hours after.

I cant say whether or not their parents knew there was such a bridge there but then again im not sure how high were talking , but it looked like a potential fatal fall in the pictures I saw , nonetheless

In this case, there are 3 possibilities and each one has a different possibility of what type of indivdual may be responsible

1) He was there for a legitimate reason and of his own accord and simply came upon the girls by chance , MOST cases of abduction homicides of children are exactly that, wherein the victims are merely victims of opportunity.

2) He observed the girls from some vantage point at some time and decided to follow them, this could be simply walking by, living near the area.

3) He knew they would be there, or knew they were there

If we look at scenario 1), in which the offender was there on his own , and came across the girls by chance you have to ask what he was doing there?, in most cases, of child abduction murder, the offender lives/works nearby, is in the area for what is a "Legit reason" he may traverse that area , but he usually lives and or works in the area .

They usually comes upon his (I Use the male indication here because the overwhelming majority are) victims by chance. the only thing that makes someone his chosen victim, is that they are alone.

Physical attributes with these type offenses usually contribute little to the victim selection process.

In terms of risk it was extremely high risk for the offender to accost 2 victims without knowing who may have been in the around unless he knew he'd be able to control more than one, that indicates not only that the offender had some level of comfort in the area, but he had some way to institute control over more than 1 person (Weapon , or possibly a sign of authority such as badge) .

This is where the victimology assessment is invaluable , were the girls such that fear by simply a show of aggression by an adult male would cause them to go with a stranger,were they the overly trusting type(s) who would beleive a ruse to get them to follow someone they didnt know? (this is equally important), what about someone they mightve known? would they go with a local they perhaps knew (or knew of)somewhat ?

If so that changes things around a lot.

If not then we have to assume he had a weapon and or some manner restrainting device on him which changes the profile of the type of individual involved yet again

Its been my feeling that simce this occurred that the individual had a weapon, though I cant say for sure, but to control 2 adolescent girls in an area where they may scream and attract attention he either forced them to walk under threat of violence, they went willingly with him because he knew them or perhaps he identified himself as a position of authority.

But to murder 2 girls when one may run during , lends me to beleive he either restrained them, or he incapacitated one to assault another then killed her too .

The shortest route between where its estimates they were last seen and where they are found seems to indicate about .5 milesm, and at some point they possibly walked through water. Or through dry ares in the creek bed.

Again "hey guys follow me down the hill" or "go down the hill" could have different meanings

Investigative considerations : Was there any similar crimes in that area? anyone suspicious in the area? any reports of anyone being followed ?

Did he lure them there then spring it on them once they were where he felt he could ?, or did he walk up to them and force them someplace he felt safe under threat?

Another possibility is false ID,

Producing a weapon or form of ID (Law enforcement) or both is another possibility.

The issue there is you have to get 2 scared girls half a mile away , and runs the chance of one or both of the victims at some point screaming for help, and theres a chance they did, but thats a HUGE risk for the offender.

Its by no means out of the range of possibility and is about 50/50 in this case, that is what he did, fear is a powerful motivator.

However "you guys wanna see something cool?" or "Police officer I need you guys to come with me " Its also possible.

The motive for this type of case is usually overwhelmingly sexual, the manner of death could shed a little more light onit better, but speaking in terms of statistics, its usually a landslide .

The offenders in these type of cases, are usually around 27-35 years of age at the time of offense , time incarcerated can alter that however. The individual is usually unemployed, or underemployed at the time of offense , though in most abduction murders of kids, triggering factors play a minimal , almost non existent role, the abduction and murder of 2 girls in a public place, albeit wooded and secluded, lends me to beleive there was some precipitating stress, beforehand.

These individuals are usually well known oddballs in the community they are loners, with few friends, sometimes labelled as "Social Marginals" .

They will have a history of failed relationships, often some established criminal history, and have often already been investigated by police.

They may interject themselves into the investigation by some means, and will often follow (usually to an obvious level ) the crime in the media

(investigative consideration: Sudden intense and unusual intertest in a case, in which their time during cannot be acounted for, and odd ever changing behavior following , changes in appearence, weight , appetite, general anxiety, sudden illness, increased use of intoxicants, sleep issues, destroying hiding items of clothes, altering or getting rid of a vehicle interior or exterior)

In many cases, they are suspected to some extent by people around them, but its never brought out for some reason or another.

One thing Im failrly certain of is that the murder scene and the recovery site are likely the same . Indicating a great level of comfort in that area where they were recovered. They recovery sites are usually the most familiar to the offender.

Because double murderers don't usually just pop up (thankfully) this individual almost CERTAINLY has a criminal past of some sort, which as some point in his life most likely involves sexual crimes and young females.

Theres often several unexpected moves to new residences, throughout his life, in most cases, 1 within 12 months prior to the offense.

Most of them work in blue collar Labor type industries, most often construction type jobs. they usually Live with parents or to a lesser extent a a significant other.

Whether or not the victims were bound would be another extremely important factor for 2 reasons
1) It indicated planning and forethought
2) Binding of child sexual murder victims is often a trait seen in repeat offenders (IE Serial killers)

If they were id venture to think it was something like handcuffs that he could hide on his person, but this also means the offender is a different type of offender than the guy who just happens upon the victims making his daily rounds.

I will refrain from speaking on manner of death as LE is keeping it under wraps, and there are to many possibilites that would lead us to pure speculation

Once hes commited the offense he needs to get out of the area, unseen , the maps shown show few residences in the area so its possble he had a vehicle nearby, or he knew a way out where he wouldnt be seen which indicatesd further 2 things,

1) familiarity with the area
2) Lives, close.

As I said earlier thers a thirs possibility of how he came into contact with the 2 girls , He either knew they would be there, or knew they were there.

How?

Did the girls disclose to anyone they were going that day?, we cant know for sure, but one thing we do know is that Libby did post a photo showing her friend with literally not a soul in sight behind her in instagram. For a sexually deviant offender who lives nearby who perhaps follows her account that may've been like ringing the dinner bell . todays investigators have to scrutinize things such as media accounts because as we know all to well lives have been lost because of it.

In the picture where we see Abby standing on the bridge, we dont see anyone else approaching (that I can tell) , ther eare dark shapes but none appear to be human.

Then within perhaps 30 min the offender appears and walks up to them and theyre gone to their fate.

Another thing , I wouldnt make much of his gait the way he walks is hindered by the fact hes steping on the railroad ties. But SOMEONE knows someone who looks like him and cant account for his time that day, even if he can.

Its a long shot, but it cant be ruled out given what info we have from the media .

Hope this opens up a few new possibilities for those following

thanks

To what extent do you think the sketches have helped/hindered the investigation into the murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German?

There have been a few other verified law enforcement from previous threads on this case that commented about sketches. According to them, they said they disliked it when a sketch was released because it usually leads to a huge amount of baseless and useless tips that waste valuable time in an investigation. Also, it was commented that the idea behind a sketch usually comes from the top to show the general public they are working hard on the investigation.

For comparison take the case of Molly Bish. It was understandable in that case for LE to come up with a sketch. They had a strong eyewitness(her mother) who seemed to really have a good memory of the man she the previous day before her daughter's abduction. And they did not have a video.

In this case, I think LE is just trying to solve the case through getting a tip because they have gotten so many of them. I think the sketches are just individuals out on the trails that day that have not been cleared by LE. I think they are just hoping that one of the two sketches ends up being correct and that someday the right tip will come in. When they put out the 2nd sketch and said that this is the person who is responsible for the murders I could not believe they could make that determination from a sketch.

What if the 2nd sketch later on turns out to look nothing like the actual murderer?! I think people listen to those words and think that if LE is that confident in their description that it must be correct. In my opinion, the 2nd sketch does not even look like the man in the video.

Until this person is found, I guess we will never know.
 
  • #262
This contradicts an earlier video she did. I actually remarked at the time it would be best for her to stay off social media, and I got swamped with angry responses. I think it’s best for her to only take guidance from law enforcement on communications. This is just my opinion, so please don’t slam me.
: )

amateur opinion and speculation

Yes I recall that discussion too, somebody quoted her comment from a podcast iirc. It was speculated the reason she wasn’t afraid was because she was older and perhaps believed the killer preyed on younger, more vulnerable victims.
 
  • #263
To what extent do you think the sketches have helped/hindered the investigation into the murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German?

There have been a few other verified law enforcement from previous threads on this case that commented about sketches. According to them, they said they disliked it when a sketch was released because it usually leads to a huge amount of baseless and useless tips that waste valuable time in an investigation. Also, it was commented that the idea behind a sketch usually comes from the top to show the general public they are working hard on the investigation.

For comparison take the case of Molly Bish. It was understandable in that case for LE to come up with a sketch. They had a strong eyewitness(her mother) who seemed to really have a good memory of the man she the previous day before her daughter's abduction. And they did not have a video.

In this case, I think LE is just trying to solve the case through getting a tip because they have gotten so many of them. I think the sketches are just individuals out on the trails that day that have not been cleared by LE. I think they are just hoping that one of the two sketches ends up being correct and that someday the right tip will come in. When they put out the 2nd sketch and said that this is the person who is responsible for the murders I could not believe they could make that determination from a sketch.

What if the 2nd sketch later on turns out to look nothing like the actual murderer?! I think people listen to those words and think that if LE is that confident in their description that it must be correct. In my opinion, the 2nd sketch does not even look like the man in the video.

Until this person is found, I guess we will never know.

Just to add, I noticed the FBI poster still features sketch #2 as the suspect even though both Carter and Leazenby appear to be stepping back from a strong commitment to its likeness.

https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/seeking-info/liberty-german/@@download.pdf
SUSPECTS
The person depicted in the composite sketch is described as a White male between 5'6" and 5'10", weighing 180 to 220 pounds, with reddish- brown hair. His eye color is unknown. The suspect is believed to be between 18 and 40 years old but may appear younger.
 
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  • #264
I look at the video, not the sketches. He has quite a background but is not in CODIS. He is a narcissist and had the opportunity. He does have a gravelly voice and he is in the age bracket of the original sketch that first came out in 2017.
What do you mean by narcissist and can you give an example of how he is one? The definition of a Narcissist includes a lot of characteristics. Does your suspect fit all of them or most of them or just a few?
 
  • #265
Wow what a write up, thanks for posting.

A few things that jumped out.

The first is Kelsei mentioning that when she dropped the girls off she saw a dark SUV with decals all over the back window parked in that drop-off area. Well I've never heard that before. With all the interviews and media things Kelsei has been involved in over the last 3 years, why pick now to be quoted about seeing a vehicle (that stood out) when she dropped Abby and Libby off? Was she originally told not to share that info? I also find Kelsei saying she feels no empathy coming from her hometown very, very sad.

A Delphi business owner stated, matter of factly it seemed like to me, that the Delphi detectives investigating the case have shared with townies when they have a promising lead to then come back and say it didn't pan out. Sounds a bit odd of a thing to say, to me, giving a picture of detectives gossiping with locals about the case. Something you'd probably keep under your hat if it was happening?

One other thing was the reporter saying that Sheriff Leazenby stessed, I'm paraphrasing, that acting on incomplete evidence can weaken the case and spoil the prosecution only gets one chance at conviction. Sounds like "incomplete" is the key word and at least a hopeful sounding word to describe evidence. I wonder if that was the Sheriff's actual word or the reporter's interpretation?

There were quotes I would have included but I couldn't copy and paste from that pdf.

All in all a really good read about Kelsei and her journey through all the heartache and hope for justice. What a lovely and caring young woman she is, God bless her.
When Kelsi says she feels no empathy from her hometown acquaintances because she thinks they don’t know what to say it’s sad. It could be because LE has never completely cleared the Patty family only saying that a certain percentage have been cleared. It would help if now 3 years later and no arrests have been made they could tell us that they are cleared. I know LE doesn’t owe the public anything but it could help the family heal and get any lingering suspicion off of them.
 
  • #266
What do you mean by narcissist and can you give an example of how he is one? The definition of a Narcissist includes a lot of characteristics. Does your suspect fit all of them or most of them or just a few?

Just about all of them.
 
  • #267
Im most cases the the suspects name is known within the first week
Remember when Carter said they were on to something early on and were going to go back to the beginning?
 
  • #268
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  • #269
Yes I recall that discussion too, somebody quoted her comment from a podcast iirc. It was speculated the reason she wasn’t afraid was because she was older and perhaps believed the killer preyed on younger, more vulnerable victims.

I remember the posts about this too. She definitely did make the comment in a podcast that she wasn't afraid of BG. I thought the speculation here, that she wasn't afraid because she knew who he was or because he was interested in younger girls, was wrong. I wondered if the speculators had even listened to the context of her remark because to my ears it sounded like she was trying to put on a brave front, and this article bears that out. She was very afraid at one time and was working through her emotions to get to a better mental frame of mind.
 
  • #270
To what extent do you think the sketches have helped/hindered the investigation into the murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German?

There have been a few other verified law enforcement from previous threads on this case that commented about sketches. According to them, they said they disliked it when a sketch was released because it usually leads to a huge amount of baseless and useless tips that waste valuable time in an investigation. Also, it was commented that the idea behind a sketch usually comes from the top to show the general public they are working hard on the investigation.

For comparison take the case of Molly Bish. It was understandable in that case for LE to come up with a sketch. They had a strong eyewitness(her mother) who seemed to really have a good memory of the man she the previous day before her daughter's abduction. And they did not have a video.

In this case, I think LE is just trying to solve the case through getting a tip because they have gotten so many of them. I think the sketches are just individuals out on the trails that day that have not been cleared by LE. I think they are just hoping that one of the two sketches ends up being correct and that someday the right tip will come in. When they put out the 2nd sketch and said that this is the person who is responsible for the murders I could not believe they could make that determination from a sketch.

What if the 2nd sketch later on turns out to look nothing like the actual murderer?! I think people listen to those words and think that if LE is that confident in their description that it must be correct. In my opinion, the 2nd sketch does not even look like the man in the video.

Until this person is found, I guess we will never know.

Im not a fan personally, but initially what else do they have ?

They have to get something out, composites are extremely unreliable but it helps to key the public eye on someone who may resemble the sketch

the hope is someone will recognize it and come forward

i think Delphi is doing its best with it , the video is really bad
 
  • #271
  • #272
If he had a camera, he filmed his killings. somewhere there is a digital record .

I believe he was taunting police . This would explain the bizarre presser.

mOO

I'm leaning in this direction.

At the PC Doug Carter alluded to "new information", I believe he used the word "intel", and he may have said something that sounded like LE had gotten their information from some kind of what I would describe as 'chatter'.

New information...means what, exactly? They didn't specify and still have not done so.

I did not know anything about the Tinsley case here in Fort Wayne until after moving here in late '15. Miller (the perp) taunted LE for years, apparently. I do not to what extent LE let the public know about the taunting, I do know he stopped doing it in 2004 and by then LE had informed the public some taunting had happened. So between roughly 1988 when April was murdered, and 2004, taunting happened.

I'm of the opinion the Delphi killer has perhaps taunted or maybe teased LE, maybe even contacted them directly, but we won't know until that information or some of it is released.

I keep going back to the PC from April of last year, I think it was purely done as a message to the killer, besides the release of the video and audio. As weird as this may sound, maybe LE have a screen grab of the killer's face, albeit blurred or what have you, from some dark web type deal.

Why would they be so convinced it's a younger perp, than they did previously?

JMO
 
  • #273
Kell1, a question if you will answer it. BG is obviously wearing several items of clothing in the video. Would it be possible for him to remove all DNA evidence from this crime from those clothes? I am referring to garment seams, hems, zipper tracks, etc. I am not asking how to do this if it can be done, just do you know if it can be done. Thank you for participating in this forum.
 
  • #274
Yes it is hard to tell but I lean toward dramatics. Police were in a difficult position two years in, introducing a new entirely different sketch, out with the old who they’d previously introduced as the man on the bridge. The “new direction” came about without any explanation. I think they would’ve been met with public criticism, insinuations of incompetence, a botched investigation etc.

But instead Carter turned it around as if this was some sort of brilliant and ingenious plan all along on the heels of a future arrest, the killer was outsmarted by LE and all this time they knew everything about him. As a result many people were certain there’d be an arrest within the following two weeks and that was why he asked for the media to give the family privacy for that length of time.

In the corporate world it’s referred to as “crisis management” admitting to a negative situation but expressing it in a positive way so as not to cause public distrust.
I know what misdirection is and I really don't feel that is the case here. Too many things coincided with the new sketch. The talk about the Parabon system finding the Tinsley killer and the GSK, the Sheriff saying, “We sent more evidence to the FBI at Quantico just before Christmas,”...and said they were doing “DNA testing research,” with regards to the case. The arrests of both CE and DN who both favored so much the first sketch released.

I believe them that real information gathered was the reason they changed direct and the sketch. It happens in investigations. If LE were so concerned about saving face and crisis managing their mistakes that press conference would have been less dramatic and more just-the-facts-Dragnet...IMO
 
  • #275
When Kelsi says she feels no empathy from her hometown acquaintances because she thinks they don’t know what to say it’s sad. It could be because LE has never completely cleared the Patty family only saying that a certain percentage have been cleared. It would help if now 3 years later and no arrests have been made they could tell us that they are cleared. I know LE doesn’t owe the public anything but it could help the family heal and get any lingering suspicion off of them.
That Flora fire press conference, at the end questions and answers part where the reporter asked if all the family members in the Delphi case had been cleared, ISP Carter's answer was, "The vast majority have been". I took that to mean including both families and in a wide and general sense. He was not being specific at all. I actually felt bad for him because he looked like a deer in the headlights at that question, out of the blue and really off topic.
 
  • #276
Kell1, a question if you will answer it. BG is obviously wearing several items of clothing in the video. Would it be possible for him to remove all DNA evidence from this crime from those clothes? I am referring to garment seams, hems, zipper tracks, etc. I am not asking how to do this if it can be done, just do you know if it can be done. Thank you for participating in this forum.

in theory yes, i wont say how

it can be difficult depending on how much you were dealing with and how much time has passed

even if its not removed it can be degraded to a point where it’s unusable
 
  • #277
Also in a secondary conversation I saw some members hoping the offender will come forward once his "conscience" kicks in

Highly unlikely with this type of individual especially in a death penalty state .
 
  • #278
65000 tips!??! The last number I saw was 50K. I wonder how many cases in the USA have even one fourth that amount in 3 years. I know they are using the Pyramid software for the tips, but with that amount of tips it would still seem to be unmanageable. And any database is only as good as the input by human beings who are not infallible. With that many tips I can't help but wonder if there is one or more tips on the actual killer already in that database.

This is crazy. I wonder how many came from IN, and how many were from remote places, and based on the second sketch (revealed in 2019) only.
 
  • #279
It all goes back to when victims weren't protected enough. After the case Big Dan's Rape happened in the early 80's. What occured there traumatized America's women into not coming forward, not wanting to testify, be exposed and ridiculed. It was a mess for justice for a very long time and these type of plea bargains were/are a part of the result, IMO.

To my shame, I never heard about Big Dan’s case.

But here is an interesting article about the story of the witnesses in that case.

Brothers break silence in Big Dan's rape case

One phrase is interesting...

“Young said testimony like the O’Neill’s is rare these days. He said that many citizens don’t step forward to testify to what they see out of fear, and police are forced all too often to cop a deal with a less-than-stellar witness to improve a case.”
 
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  • #280
Yes I recall that discussion too, somebody quoted her comment from a podcast iirc. It was speculated the reason she wasn’t afraid was because she was older and perhaps believed the killer preyed on younger, more vulnerable victims.

I didn't take that as saying she didn't feel fear. I took it to mean that she was going to stand up to him and not let what she might feel stop her.
 
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