IN - Couple charged with abandonment of adopted child after legally changing her age, Sept 2019

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  • #341
The pictures look pretty much the same to me. If someone was a dwarf you would have trouble telling their age visually. And the way people appear in individual pictures can vary considerably depending on the light and their physical state at the time.
I think she has clearly 'aged' when you look at her pic (as in 'before/after')
It's nothing to do with her height.
natalia-mix-jpg.206839

:) There's other pics here
Ms Barnett told the MailOnline: ‘The media is painting me to be a child abuser but there is no child here. Natalia was a woman. She had periods. She had adult teeth.
:confused: -
That IS A CHILD! -

She never grew a single inch, which would happen even with a child with dwarfism. :rolleyes: The doctors all confirmed she was suffering a severe psychological illness only diagnosed in adults.
18972740-7507767-image-m-26_1569516464633.jpg

18975452-7507767-image-m-59_1569517210294.jpg
:rolleyes: Maybe not so much height wise (for obvious reasons) but...
she's certainly 'grown'
1569598610_68_Adoptive-parents-of-Ukrainian-girl-with-dwarfism-appear-in-court.jpg
2_natalia-grace-now-living-with-a-new-family-Mum-Cynthia-Wilson-Mans.jpg
;) There's also another rather obvious difference, which can be seen, which strongly suggests she is maturing just like teenage girls do ...

*I'm not posting actual pic for obvious reasons! :confused:
Link to Obviously
Websleuths
Link to Pics
:cool: All images taken links or linked in previous post ^
 

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  • #342
Yes. That's happened a few times. With adults pretending to be older teens. Not adults pretending to be 8. Or having two separate doctors who analyzed her bone scans determine she was a child.

Yeah, I have never seen an adult sucessfully pretend to be a child. And I will also say that there is no type of dwarfism that makes an adult look like a child and there is no validity to the idea that dwarfism makes bone scans unreliable.
 
  • #343
Unlikely. In order to sue she would have to admit that she was not a minor at the time. If she was a minor the parents could release the information, if she was not a minor then she would be guilty of fraud. In either case she would probably lose such a suit.

Do you think they authorized release of such documents as the parents of a minor during an actual court case in which they were arguing she wasn't a minor?

I don't. Which means that unless the court authorized the doctor to submit such info, she can sue him.
 
  • #344
The pictures look pretty much the same to me. If someone was a dwarf you would have trouble telling their age visually. And the way people appear in individual pictures can vary considerably depending on the light and their physical state at the time.

Not much difference? I see a huge difference. IMO no way are those older photos of her a late teenager as they claim. Because if she was 22 in 2013, as they claim, she is 28 now. Which means hey are claiming she was NINETEEN years of age in those initial photos of her in the pink dress.

No way.

And little people indeed don't typically appear younger in their actual faces than others. I follow the Little Couple who have the same form of dwarfism. They often show photos of their childhoods, teen years, young adulthood, etc. Their faces seem to follow a normal trajectory of aging. They don't look like babies as teenagers or young adults. Their bodies are just small.

Here's some of the photos again in approximate order of aging:

IMG_2748.JPG IMG_2749.JPG IMG_2759.JPG IMG_2760.JPG IMG_2761.JPG IMG_2762.JPG IMG_2763.JPG

I see a child - not a 19 year old - aging normally.

And remember, most of these are photos the Barnett's supplied to prove their claim. So why would they select photos in which she looks younger than she is?

My guess is they did the opposite.

Photo sources:
Ukrainian dwarf who 'masqueraded as a child' is living with new family | Daily Mail Online

Mom claims Ukrainian daughter, 9, she adopted was really a 22-year-old with dwarfism | Daily Mail Online
 
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  • #345
The thing that I keep going back to is this..... Surely if she was really only 11/12 years old when she was 'abandoned' she would have been scared and upset after about 24 hours and would have sought help so much sooner than she did?!

She's a kid who grew up in a insitutional setting in Eastern Europe. If you're unfamiliar with that special kind of hell and intense neglect, especially for disabled kids, check out some YouTube videos.

Comparing her with an average kid who grew up here in the states and played soccer and went to a birthday parties and was tucked in at night is probably not apt.

Those kids have to learn to fend for themselves if they're going to survive.


And even neglected and abused kids here are different. You read stories every year of kids left alone for days or weeks. Sometimes even months. Small kids. Fending for themselves. Going through garbage.

Police: Round Rock mom left toddler, other children home alone for days

 
  • #346
I think she has clearly 'aged' when you look at her pic (as in 'before/after')
It's nothing to do with her height.
natalia-mix-jpg.206839

:) There's other pics here

1569598610_68_Adoptive-parents-of-Ukrainian-girl-with-dwarfism-appear-in-court.jpg
2_natalia-grace-now-living-with-a-new-family-Mum-Cynthia-Wilson-Mans.jpg
;) There's also another rather obvious difference, which can be seen, which strongly suggests she is maturing just like teenage girls do ...

*I'm not posting actual pic for obvious reasons! :confused:
Link to Obviously
Websleuths
Link to Pics
:cool: All images taken links or linked in previous post ^

Yeah. So here she supposedly is at 19. Huge chest, right?

IMG_2749.JPG

And now.
IMG_2764.JPG

I've never known that a 19 year old could develop at that age without help.

ETA: Here's another photo supplied by Kristine Barrett of the child while in the Barrett's custody that shows a clear shot of her from the front:

IMG_2759.JPG

No difference?
 
  • #347
Yeah, I have never seen an adult sucessfully pretend to be a child. And I will also say that there is no type of dwarfism that makes an adult look like a child and there is no validity to the idea that dwarfism makes bone scans unreliable.

At least not that type of dwarfism. There are a couple I've watched shows on that have to do with pituitary development. They appear like babies.

That's not her though. Her specific type doesn't have anything to do with failure to reach puberty or age.
 
  • #348
:cool: About the abandonment timeline, from what I've picked up, from reading on numerous no-linkable sites, so this is all In My Opinion ...

;)
The Barnetts dumped this child & left her in July 2013. The reports seem to keep copy & pasting stating Natalia was 'evicted or kicked-out' the following year (2014)
I think the family who took her in actually found her in the August 2013, since that time she has been living with them.

It was only technically due the pre-paid rent as that's when the lease of the apartment ended & is where the 2014 date comes from.
Natalia was long gone by that point.
She wasn't evicted.
She wasn't left to fend for herself all that length of time.

I hope this helps (& makes sense?) :)
 
  • #349
This made the news a few weeks ago:

'On Sept. 8, 2019, an image supposedly showing a child smoking during a football match went viral on Twitter.'

'This video, however, does not feature a child. The person smoking in this footage is actually a 36-year-old man.'


Young-boy-is-seen-smoking-by-TV-cameras-at-Turkish.jpg


Was a Child Spotted Smoking a Cigarette at a Soccer Game?

He does not look 36.
 
  • #350
It seems the Washington Post have upset Kristine :rolleyes:
She's "not supposed to be talking to anyone" but was so "sick & devastated" she just HAD TO speak out and make it clear that the W.P. used the mugshot of a different Kristine Barnett in one of its articles. :confused:
18542858-7461323-image-a-68_1568655639122.jpg
:D LOL

- This ^ pic of the screenshot is taken from the article -
Daily Mail
 
  • #351
This made the news a few weeks ago:

'On Sept. 8, 2019, an image supposedly showing a child smoking during a football match went viral on Twitter.'

'This video, however, does not feature a child. The person smoking in this footage is actually a 36-year-old man.'


Young-boy-is-seen-smoking-by-TV-cameras-at-Turkish.jpg


Was a Child Spotted Smoking a Cigarette at a Soccer Game?

He does not look 36.
I think that's more due to him having 'lucky genes' thou not him trying to scam people by purposely trying to look like a child ;)
He's clearly quite a bit older looking than the kid next to him as well.

Remember the original Karate Kid?
Nobody could believe Daniel-san :D was really 22, including the cast members.
nintchdbpict000321478162-e1493923237489.jpg

 
  • #352
I find it very troubling that the a large part of the 'she is an adult' argument that I have seen the Barnetts putting forth in the media is that she has been 'diagnosed' with a personality disorder that only adults are diagnosed with - that she is a psychopath or a sociopath. Many have pointed out psychopath is not in the DSM-5 and that the diagnosis would actually be that she has an antisocial personality disorder.

But the reasoning here is so backwards. And it is not really right to describe a personality disorder as a psychological or mental 'illness.' The diagnosis is based on inflexible patterns of thinking and behaving, with evidence that those particular behavioural/emotional/thought/relational patterns or traits have been in place over pretty much the entire (adult) lifetime of an individual. And because people with personality disorders are not necessarily going to see themselves or describe themselves accurately, the patient's history (work, education, criminal history, family and other relationship history, including interviews with friends and family if possible) is important in coming to a diagnosis of a personality disorder. So is ruling out any other potential physical or psychological causes. I hope I don't cause offense but the way I might try and get students in a Psych 101 college class to start thinking about the problems that coming to a personality disorder diagnosis might pose, would be to ask them to come up with a way to diagnose someone as being clinically 'an a**hole' (or some other type of personality, maybe 'a social butterfly' or 'a grouch' or whatever). You cannot just ask the person, they probably do not think they are just an a**hole - they experience life from their own point of view and have their own reasons and motivations for behaving as they do. For example, they may have been an a**hole to a cashier, but they think that the cashier was just being too slow (and maybe they were) and so they got mad at the cashier, for example. You cannot just point to one instance or even one period in a person's life when they were an a**hole, because maybe they were an a**hole at that time because they were going through other things (emotional, monetary, medical, psychological, neurological - there are a whole host of reasons our 'personality' can be altered for short or long periods of time). Because the diagnosis is assumed to be permanent and 'inflexible' you wouldn't want to diagnose a child as being clinically 'an a**hole' even if they acted like one, because their personality is still developing and because you don't have a long enough history to reliably make that decision. So it isn't that you are a 'psychopath' and therefore you must be an adult, but just that the diagnosis is pretty much only able to be made in adults because of the nature of a personality disorder diagnosis. With an adult, you could look back at their adolescent or perhaps childhood years and see that there were signs of a personality disorder that they were later diagnosed with, but with a child or adolescent you just do not have enough data and all the data you have is uncertain because there is so much other stuff going on with children and adolescents and they are still developing and all that.

This child in particular had a lot happening with her that could have been causing some of the behaviours that might have been completely inappropriately interpreted by members of the Barnett family to mean that she is a 'psychopath.' How much do we know about her life before she was adopted? It would not surprise me if she experienced some neglect in her early years. That will change a child's brain, they will not be able to develop appropriately, they will struggle with the way they relate to the world and other people. It just breaks my heart to think this child may have been struggling with something like Reactive Attachment Disorder, and/or other challenges, and that instead of helping her to heal by surrounding her with the level of care and love she needed (which may have been a lot and may have been extremely challenging), her adoptive family just said 'no, she is a psychopath and therefore she is an adult' and they rejected and abandoned her. I mean, the level of devastating that would be for a child with attachment issues is so heartbreaking that I almost hope she is an adult with antisocial personality disorder. This is all speculative and MOO.

Those behaviours that the Barnetts have mentioned sort of in reference to her being a 'sociopath or psychopath' do not lead me to believe she is a sociopath at all, in fact they lead me to believe she is a child. Like the quote from Kristine Barnett in this article saying "She would make statements and draw pictures saying she wanted to kill family members, roll them up in a blanket and put them in the backyard." Sounds exactly like a child with emotional difficulties to me, and not at all like a 22 year old sociopathic criminal mastermind. MOO.
 
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  • #353
I think people could be putting to much weight into the photos.
1. I'm a fully grown adult and have been for much more than 10 years.... I still look different than I did 10 years ago and have definitely aged (thanks small daughter for your help with that!) She will have aged from potentially a young adult to potentially a slightly older adult.
In the early photos if she wasn't actually a young child she was acting a young child so would have held herself differently in photos and she was wearing cute dresses and hair bows .... In the more recent photos she's obviously dressing and acting more adult.
Although I did see one recent photo of her in a pink Minnie Mouse dress with a tutu the sort of thing my 3 year old would adore... What self respecting young adult would want to dress like that?!
2. Photos can be decieving - remember Gypsy Rose.... we all saw the photos and thought she was a poor little victim .... how different did that story turn out! (I still believe she was a victim of sorts, but that's for a different thread!)
3. She may also look physically different as her dwarfism has potentially been left largely untreated for this long period of time. I'm not medically trained though so this obviously my own opinion. But I have watched the Little Couple and know they regularly need various surgeries, has she had access to that kind of care?!
 
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  • #354
The thing that I keep going back to is this..... Surely if she was really only 11/12 years old when she was 'abandoned' she would have been scared and upset after about 24 hours and would have sought help so much sooner than she did?!

Where would she go for help? She was legally a 22 year old. She had been homeschooled by people that abandoned her. Her version of a normal life might not have matched the average pre-teen. She was possibly used to fending for herself and who knows what she went through before and after her first adoption. It's not like she woke up and her stable family had disappeared in the night or her parents went out to dinner and didn't comeback. The Barnetts helped her get welfare, set her up in an apartment, made her an adult, their abandonment probably wasn't a shock. It was abandonment.
If a kid has been traumatized and passed around the life they know and are familiar with is something they might not want to jeopardize by seeking help. There is a fear of the unknown, and the possibility of finding yourself in a worse situation.
 
  • #355
I find it very troubling that the a large part of the 'she is an adult' argument that I have seen the Barnetts putting forth in the media is that she has been 'diagnosed' with a personality disorder that only adults are diagnosed with - that she is a psychopath or a sociopath. Many have pointed out psychopath is not in the DSM-5 and that the diagnosis would actually be that she has an antisocial personality disorder.

But the reasoning here is so backwards. And it is not really right to describe a personality disorder as a psychological or mental 'illness.' The diagnosis is based on inflexible patterns of thinking and behaving, with evidence that those particular behavioural/emotional/thought/relational patterns or traits have been in place over pretty much the entire (adult) lifetime of an individual. And because people with personality disorders are not necessarily going to see themselves or describe themselves accurately, the patient's history (work, education, criminal history, family and other relationship history, including interviews with friends and family if possible) is important in coming to a diagnosis of a personality disorder. So is ruling out any other potential physical or psychological causes. I hope I don't cause offense but the way I might try and get students in a Psych 101 college class to start thinking about the problems that coming to a personality disorder diagnosis might pose, would be to ask them to come up with a way to diagnose someone as being clinically 'an a**hole' (or some other type of personality, maybe 'a social butterfly' or 'a grouch' or whatever). You cannot just ask the person, they probably do not think they are just an a**hole - they experience life from their own point of view and have their own reasons and motivations for behaving as they do. For example, they may have been an a**hole to a cashier, but they think that the cashier was just being too slow (and maybe they were) and so they got mad at the cashier, for example. You cannot just point to one instance or even one period in a person's life when they were an a**hole, because maybe they were an a**hole at that time because they were going through other things (emotional, monetary, medical, psychological, neurological - there are a whole host of reasons our 'personality' can be altered for short or long periods of time). Because the diagnosis is assumed to be permanent and 'inflexible' you wouldn't want to diagnose a child as being clinically 'an a**hole' even if they acted like one, because their personality is still developing and because you don't have a long enough history to reliably make that decision. So it isn't that you are a 'psychopath' and therefore you must be an adult, but just that the diagnosis is pretty much only able to be made in adults because of the nature of a personality disorder diagnosis. With an adult, you could look back at their adolescent or perhaps childhood years and see that there were signs of a personality disorder that they were later diagnosed with, but with a child or adolescent you just do not have enough data and all the data you have is uncertain because there is so much other stuff going on with children and adolescents and they are still developing and all that.

This child in particular had a lot happening with her that could have been causing some of the behaviours that might have been completely inappropriately interpreted by members of the Barnett family to mean that she is a 'psychopath.' How much do we know about her life before she was adopted? It would not surprise me if she experienced some neglect in her early years. That will change a child's brain, they will not be able to develop appropriately, they will struggle with the way they relate to the world and other people. It just breaks my heart to think this child may have been struggling with something like Reactive Attachment Disorder, and/or other challenges, and that instead of helping her to heal by surrounding her with the level of care and love she needed (which may have been a lot and may have been extremely challenging), her adoptive family just said 'no, she is a psychopath and therefore she is an adult' and they rejected and abandoned her. I mean, the level of devastating that would be for a child with attachment issues is so heartbreaking that I almost hope she is an adult with antisocial personality disorder. This is all speculative and MOO.

Those behaviours that the Barnetts have mentioned sort of in reference to her being a 'sociopath or psychopath' do not lead me to believe she is a sociopath at all, in fact they lead me to believe she is a child. Like the quote from Kristine Barnett in this article saying "She would make statements and draw pictures saying she wanted to kill family members, roll them up in a blanket and put them in the backyard." Sounds exactly like a child with emotional difficulties to me, and not at all like a 22 year old sociopathic criminal mastermind. MOO.

Well said! The Barnetts have an interest in demonizing her now. I wouldn't be surprised if they are exaggerating her behavior or just lying. They seem to have controlled the narrative of her life with doctors and the court system, pushing for a diagnosis and changing her age. She is not the one being devious or deceptive. You are right about a picture like that. It seems like a cry for help possibly from her "family", it's also a way a child would express themselves, not an adult con-woman. MOO
 
  • #356
Again- there is no way that 'doctor's letter' is legit. Here's why:

It is clearly a lab result/ summary of some type written about the FATHER as it contains HIS name and date of birth. Everything after that bit of info has been altered/ photoshopped/ whatever. It is not written as a medical report of any type would be. It uses inflammatory language about the supposed 'patient' (the girl) which NO PHYSICIAN IS GOING TO USE.

In short- the doctor's letter is clearly to my eye a fake. This physician has been dragged down this very seedy rabbit hole through no fault of his own. His only 'fault' is in treating a member of this dysfunctional family.

The reason IU Health and the physician have not made a comment? (Trust me on this one) They are doing their own internal investigation and it is going to get much, much uglier for these 'parents'.
Thank you for stating this so clearly, I think this makes sense & seems pretty obvious what's happened here?

:mad: This could basically destroy this mans career, even if it all comes out that this letter has been faked & he's totally innocent of any wrong doing (which I do believe to be the case here now o_O ) this will possibly ruin his whole life!

My sincere apologies to the Dr. for my earlier presumptuous comment saying he should be locked-up & struck-off. :oops:

( ;) well...if this assumption is correct )

This whole case is insane!
 
  • #357
Thank you for stating this so clearly, I think this makes sense & seems pretty obvious what's happened here?

:mad: This could basically destroy this mans career, even if it all comes out that this letter has been faked & he's totally innocent of any wrong doing (which I do believe to be the case here now o_O ) this will possibly ruin his whole life!

My sincere apologies to the Dr. for my earlier presumptuous comment saying he should be locked-up & struck-off. :oops:

( ;) well...if this assumption is correct )

This whole case is insane!

I am local to this case- and trust me NO ONE believes that this physician had anything to do with any of this nonsense.
 
  • #358
Thank you for stating this so clearly, I think this makes sense & seems pretty obvious what's happened here?

:mad: This could basically destroy this mans career, even if it all comes out that this letter has been faked & he's totally innocent of any wrong doing (which I do believe to be the case here now o_O ) this will possibly ruin his whole life!

My sincere apologies to the Dr. for my earlier presumptuous comment saying he should be locked-up & struck-off. :oops:

( ;) well...if this assumption is correct )

This whole case is insane!
Didn't I read that this doctor died? Or am I getting confused with something else?
 
  • #359
Yes. That's happened a few times. With adults pretending to be older teens. Not adults pretending to be 8. Or having two separate doctors who analyzed her bone scans determine she was a child.

Was not aware of any bone scans. Is there a link for that?
 
  • #360
Interesting posts.
I had watched a YT doc. about children in orphanages in Russia who were disabled and that was difficult to get through.
If this young woman has emotional issues it wouldn't be surprising ; but we only have the adoptive parent's word for this.
Sounds like she's thriving in her new home.

Eta : There's also Reactive Attachment Disorder ; where she may have issues trusting anyone.
 
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