Is the fact that Terri hasn't been arrested indicative of lack of evidence?

[jadejazzkayla]

Okay, fair enough - six of one, half a dozen of another. You are as free to believe Terri is innocent as I am free to believe she might be guilty.

I'm just not on the fence because to me, the facts of the case so far are enough evidence. Terri was the last person to see Kyron alive. Terri doesn't have a great alibi that morning ("driving around"). LE has her cell phone records. LE has her sext messages. Then we have the MFH plot.

We know more than we think we know, I think. :angel: The fact she hasn't been arrested doesn't mean she is innocent or that there isn't plenty of evidence.

this is true, but the fact remains we have yet to hear any evidence re: kyron's disappearance that points to anyone in particular -terri included.

 

[Dee10]

this is true, but the fact remains we have yet to hear any evidence re: kyron's disappearance that points to anyone in particular -terri included.

True "we" haven't, but apparently TH and her expensive criminal lawyer appear to think there is evidence against her, since Terri is not going to open her mouth in any proceedings and give up asking for custody. This is an example IMO of actions speak louder than words. Who goes out to get the most expensive criminal lawyer they can when you haven't even been named a POI, etc? I could see after the fact, but before???:waitasec:

 

[Billylee]

True "we" haven't, but apparently TH and her expensive criminal lawyer appear to think there is evidence against her, since Terri is not going to open her mouth in any proceedings and give up asking for custody. This is an example IMO of actions speak louder than words. Who goes out to get the most expensive criminal lawyer they can when you haven't even been named a POI, etc? I could see after the fact, but before???:waitasec:

Great question. IMO it is the innocent person who needs an attorney more than a guilty one. Especially when it is obvious that you are being considered a "defacto" suspect.

Put yourself for a moment in Terri's shoes, after weeks of questioning and re-questioning by LE, add to that being told she failed three LDT's. (Amber duBois' step-father took 10, do you think it was because LE told him he "passed with flying colors"?)

Although they maintained all along that she was thoroughly cooperating, obviously what she told them, was not what they wanted to hear. No one believed her. If you are telling the truth and no one believes you what would you do?

Enter the MFH accusation, that shows up at your doorstep in a RO from your husband, along with the accusation from your husband that LE gave him probable cause to believe you're responsible for Kyron's disappearance, and your husband takes away your youngest child. What would you do? Would you stand by passively, still telling LE and your family that you had nothing to do with it, while while they are railroading you in tandem? I think not.

I know what I'd do. I'd hire my butt the best attorney I could find. I'd feel I was being persecuted to the hilt at that point and I would say to myself:

"Enough already, they are trying to pin Kyron's disappearance on me. I've told them everything I did that day, and they say it doesn't add up, but it does, it's what I did. Is there some time I can't account for, sure, I wasn't looking at my watch all day. Good grief, if I'd planned this, I'd have made for a much better alibi. What do they think I am, a murderer? Why do they think I'd harm Kyron? They're spending all this time on me and they should be out trying to find the real perp! I'm so pissed off, I'm being railroaded because they have no other leads. I've got to get an attorney, now."

And so she does, and guess what the attorney tells her to do? "Yes, Terri, I think you are right, this is a witch hunt. It's apparent you are the focus "defacto suspect" of LE. They have no other leads, you were the last one to see Kyron alive, they have no where else to turn. Shut the **** up! Say no more, because we cannot defend you until we know what we're defending you against."

And that, is where we stand today. Innocent or guilty, if you are suspect of a crime, defacto or otherwise, you need an attorney. In fact, innocent people need a lawyer more because a jury may not automatically find them innocent. Think about it.

In my opinion, if Terri' is guilty, but especially if she's innocent, the smartest thing she's done so far, is hire an attorney and take his advice. JMO

 

[cluciano63]

I just watched the 48 Hours from last week, on Amber DuBois' case and saw a lot I did not know. I didn't know how seriously LE considered Amber's stepdad to be responsible and that Amber's mom came to believe that as well, within a matter of weeks, and moved out of the house at the 6-week mark. The stepdad had a really flaky kind of day on that Friday-stayed home from work...for some reason did not get the call that Amber was not at all school when they called...went to his wife's job to bring her flowers and candy and hung around an hour, something he never did...he was the last known person to see Amber...he had to take 8 polygraphs, so clearly something was not working...


And of course, he had nothing to do with Amber's murder...

I am not saying that Terri is innocent, but this show startled me in a lot of ways.
Amber's murder is one of the worst, most heartbreaking cases to me...this show is hard to watch, but worthwhile.

 

[Dee10]

I don't believe someone would at the point she was at go out & get the most expensive lawyer give him a huge retainer (or she lied about it) just for some simple legal advice on what not to say or do? I know my friend's son was being grilled on a suspected murder. He did a video interview, gave a few statements; after he saw a criminal lawyer once for advice and followed it paid $300.00. LE is not going to arrest her without evidence that points directly at her that they feel will stand up in court. So why the over-kill if you know there couldn't possibly be evidence because you are innocent? Houze's silence is also concerning to me.

 

[Dee10]

I just watched the 48 Hours from last week, on Amber DuBois' case and saw a lot I did not know. I didn't know how seriously LE considered Amber's stepdad to be responsible and that Amber's mom came to believe that as well, within a matter of weeks, and moved out of the house at the 6-week mark. The stepdad had a really flaky kind of day on that Friday-stayed home from work...for some reason did not get the call that Amber was not at all school when they called...went to his wife's job to bring her flowers and candy and hung around an hour, something he never did...he was the last known person to see Amber...he had to take 8 polygraphs, so clearly something was not working...


And of course, he had nothing to do with Amber's murder...

I am not saying that Terri is innocent, but this show startled me in a lot of ways.
Amber's murder is one of the worst, most heartbreaking cases to me...this show is hard to watch, but worthwhile.

I didn't know that either, darn I wish I would have seen it. Do you know if they got a lawyer?

 

[darlin gal]

I didn't know that either, darn I wish I would have seen it. Do you know if they got a lawyer?

You can watch in full here:
http://www.cbs.com/primetime/48_hou...FSlmjE1q2Hq2sMT8Fm5x8Ww&vs=homepage&play=true

 

[cluciano63]

I didn't know that either, darn I wish I would have seen it. Do you know if they got a lawyer?

No mention of a lawyer...you should watch it, it really was striking to me.

 

[GrainneDhu]

I just watched the 48 Hours from last week, on Amber DuBois' case and saw a lot I did not know. I didn't know how seriously LE considered Amber's stepdad to be responsible and that Amber's mom came to believe that as well, within a matter of weeks, and moved out of the house at the 6-week mark. The stepdad had a really flaky kind of day on that Friday-stayed home from work...for some reason did not get the call that Amber was not at all school when they called...went to his wife's job to bring her flowers and candy and hung around an hour, something he never did...he was the last known person to see Amber...he had to take 8 polygraphs, so clearly something was not working...

And of course, he had nothing to do with Amber's murder...

I am not saying that Terri is innocent, but this show startled me in a lot of ways.
Amber's murder is one of the worst, most heartbreaking cases to me...this show is hard to watch, but worthwhile.

Wow! Cluciano, thank you so much for posting about that show.

Dave Cave's suffering in the year between when Amber disappeared and John Gardner confessed to killing her is exactly what I fear for every person suspected in a high profile case where there is no conviction.

It sounds like the eyewitness testimony was mistaken in her case; two different eyewitnesses placed her near her school but Gardner said she was walking down a side street that was not on the usual route she took to the school (Amber's mother says she believes Gardner's account). Just goes to show that, surprise! Kids are humans and just as subject to whims as the rest of us. Kids don't always do what the people who know them best think they will do.

It shows how a lot of little things can lead to a huge and horrible mistake. Mistaken eyewitnesses, a stepfather who unexpectedly took the day off and then offered his wife an uncharacteristic romantic gesture, did not have any real proof for how he spent the rest of his day (he said he was doing his taxes; since he is factually innocent, I think it is fair to think he was telling the truth). In any other context, his actions would have seemed innocent and even praiseworthy, a loving gesture to his wife. But in context, it came to look sinister and almost like proof of guilt (both to the police and to his wife).

I will never forget the look on Dave Cave's face when he said that he had had things said to him that no human should ever have to hear. Absolute desolation, absolute betrayal.

 

[cluciano63]

I am watching a show about a murder case in CA years ago...Debbie Whitlock was the victim. Her husband was out with another woman that night (his girlfriend) and originally lied about it. His polygraph was suspicious. Fingerprints taken from the scene did not match him, but he was still the suspect all the way until DNA was able to be used years later. And eventually, thanks to a tip from an ex-con, they did finally catch the real killer, someone she had never met, some drugged-up junkie.

I guess my point is that people lie to police, even under the most serious circumstances, and when someone can't be cleared by LE, it does not always mean that is because they did the crime.

I don't believe LE has physical evidence in this case that would be of much use, but unless they come up with DNA that does not belong to anyone Kyron has ever been around, I don't know how Terri would ever be "cleared" either. She may end up just being an unofficial suspect forever, guilty or not.

 

[JBean]

[ame=http://www.websleuths.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=388]More about Amber's case for reading and reference[/ame]

 

[Billylee]

Dec. 4 http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/12/multnomah_county_sheriff_dan_s_2.html

They point to one undeniable fact: They lack any physical evidence of Kyron or physical evidence that links anyone to his disappearance.


Well I guess this pretty much answers this question.

 

[pittsburghgirl]

The reason we do trials rather than internet surveys to determine guilt or innocence is that the state has to bring forward evidence in order to put someone in prison. Even so, the prisons have many people in them who were not guilty of the crime, as DNA has begun to demonstrate. All it takes is one investigator to get tunnel vision and someone can end up on trial. In this case, I am still waiting to see an indictment on the murder-for-hire. That's a crime that evidently Kaine thinks LE has evidence for...or at least so he was told. The case of Amber DuBois's stepfather is an excellent case in point; we KNOW he wasn't guilty; he just LOOKED guilty. I think TH looks guilty, based on what has been put out in the media about her. But what makes this case a mystery, still, is that we don't KNOW what happened. What I do know is that chasing only one theory can end up leaving a predator in a position to kill again, as we sadly learned from Amber's case.

 

[Donjeta]

Dec. 4 http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/12/multnomah_county_sheriff_dan_s_2.html

They point to one undeniable fact: They lack any physical evidence of Kyron or physical evidence that links anyone to his disappearance.


Well I guess this pretty much answers this question.

What is considered physical evidence? I take they don't have security camera footage of someone taking Kyron out of school or fingerprints, DNA and trace evidence from the suspect near a pool of Kyron's blood. But they could have witness statements and interview snippets pointing to a specific suspect, couldn't they?

 

[Schmerty_Jones]

What is considered physical evidence? I take they don't have security camera footage of someone taking Kyron out of school or fingerprints, DNA and trace evidence from the suspect near a pool of Kyron's blood. But they could have witness statements and interview snippets pointing to a specific suspect, couldn't they?

Did anyone else who knew Kyron intimately,talk about him" having seizures & wandering off" ? Kaine worked from home a lot of the time!! Surely a hands-on


father would notice strange behaviour??? Desiree & Tony loved that child & spent time with him. Did they not feel
concerned about his wandering ways?. The teachers & other class mates ? ??? I think Terri putting emails out after the fact &bringing this to light only after he disappeared, sounds rather having "an axe to grind"!!! Perhaps his disappearance was too well planned? Too much information?:waitasec:

 

[GrainneDhu]

Did anyone else who knew Kyron intimately,talk about him" having seizures & wandering off" ? Kaine worked from home a lot of the time!! Surely a hands-on

father would notice strange behaviour??? Desiree & Tony loved that child & spent time with him. Did they not feel
concerned about his wandering ways?. The teachers & other class mates ? ??? I think Terri putting emails out after the fact &bringing this to light only after he disappeared, sounds rather having "an axe to grind"!!! Perhaps his disappearance was too well planned? Too much information?:waitasec:

On the other hand, if my hypothetical child disappeared, I'd be minutely examining every single thing I'd noticed about that child since birth, hoping to find some clue. Under such conditions, any tiny detail of behaviour might come to seem unusual or even abnormal with very little way to distinguish the truth from distortions of perception caused by anxiety.

Likewise with suspects. In the Amber Dubois case (discussed upthread), the stepfather's behaviour that day came to seem extremely suspicious both to LE and Amber's mother. As it turns out, he was factually innocent. All the actions that seemed so suspicious were innocent in nature.

Had Gardener never confessed, though, LE and Amber's mother would still be perceiving all those actions as highly suspicious.

 

[Dee10]

Did anyone else who knew Kyron intimately,talk about him" having seizures & wandering off" ? Kaine worked from home a lot of the time!! Surely a hands-on


father would notice strange behaviour??? Desiree & Tony loved that child & spent time with him. Did they not feel
concerned about his wandering ways?. The teachers & other class mates ? ??? I think Terri putting emails out after the fact &bringing this to light only after he disappeared, sounds rather having "an axe to grind"!!! Perhaps his disappearance was too well planned? Too much information?:waitasec:

Exactly, I think this email to a friend (one of perhaps many) that will play as a key pieces of evidence in many aspects of possible charges. In the case of seizures and wondering off, that should be easy to disprove; #1 the doctor's testimony if he disproves this. If not true, no wonder LE would narrow the focus! I don't think she counted on (using the the words lightly) being a possible suspect, nor that her friends would turn-over emails. I am glad her friends are producing what they have, so the experts can decide. I think she is being caught in her own web, IMO of course.

 

[cluciano63]

I agree about Amber's stepfather...I don't think he would have ever been free of suspicion if not for Gardner doing it again, getting caught, etc...and although he probably would not have been arrested, he would be the person that most would come to see as guilty...his wife already had.

While LE may have various e-mails etc. that show Terri to be a mean-spirited stepmother, among other things, unless anything from her computer actually details a crime or her google searches include "how to disappear a child" I think most of the computer stuff would act as back-up to what they hoped might be some physical evidence by now. Not sure how it would stand on its own. Terri certainly is her own worst enemy as far as "looking guilty" but in the ways that don't really pass an evidence test.

 

[Dee10]

I agree about Amber's stepfather...I don't think he would have ever been free of suspicion if not for Gardner doing it again, getting caught, etc...and although he probably would not have been arrested, he would be the person that most would come to see as guilty...his wife already had.

While LE may have various e-mails etc. that show Terri to be a mean-spirited stepmother, among other things, unless anything from her computer actually details a crime or her google searches include "how to disappear a child" I think most of the computer stuff would act as back-up to what they hoped might be some physical evidence by now. Not sure how it would stand on its own. Terri certainly is her own worst enemy as far as "looking guilty" but in the ways that don't really pass an evidence test.

Aren't most of these cases circumstantial? LE has stated at a previous presser almost as much, that they have no smoking gun. But layer by layer, the case is narrowing and painting a picture...whether it will pass enough for a trial we will see; they seem confident though. It took along time in Casey A. too IMO, but they forged ahead.

 

[cluciano63]

Aren't most of these cases circumstantial? LE has stated at a previous presser almost as much, that they have no smoking gun. But layer by layer, the case is narrowing and painting a picture...whether it will pass enough for a trial we will see; they seem confident though. It took along time in Casey A. too IMO, but they forged ahead.

It could be a circumstantial case but I really think they need to find Kyron...even now they are putting out too many possibilities as to what could have happened to him, and they still say they believe he is alive (whether they do or not.) I think there is a ton of doubt right now as to what happened. And even though I do think Terri is most likely guilty, I'd have to at least hear from someone that they saw her take him out of school or out of the parking lot, to even go for kidnapping.