Is the fact that Terri hasn't been arrested indicative of lack of evidence?

[loves2bmom]

This is the quote I was referring to, it was Gates on June 9th, and he was referring to the case, the investigation. He said he HOPED it would be wrapped up by the end of the week, and I wonder they thought they'd find that would enable them to do that.

Gates said he believes Horman's disappearance is an isolated incident, and he said he’s not giving up hope of finding him.

“We’re going to continue this investigation until we have resolution,” he said. “Will eventually the number of resources involved be scaled back? Yes. If it takes that long. My hope is that we’re going to have this wrapped up by the end of the week. That’s my hope. But if it goes longer, we’ll make those determinations as they come with regard to are these resources still helping in this investigation?”


http://www.katu.com/news/local/95808084.html

Billy I remember that too. I also think he was referring to the investigation. The only thing I can think of is that they believe (and still do) that TH was involved and thought it would be much easier to solve. IMOO, once they found out the case involved another person(s), it got way bigger than they imagined and that's why it's taking so long. They have to tie so many things together clearly for the jury and there was (is) lots to uncover. :twocents:

 

[cluciano63]

I agree, I think they believed they would either have a confession or find Kyron by the end of that week, or perhaps both.

As far as the title of the thread, obviously they are lacking evidence to arrest her, or she would be arrested. This does not mean they don't have any evidence but clearly they do not have enough.

 

[Paulette]

IMO the have the evidence that she left the school with Kyron, but not what happened after leaving the school. IMO they don't want to charge her until they can get some evidence to where Kyron may be, deceased or not. IMO They want Kyron, one way or the other.

If they had evidence that she left the school with Kyron, she would be arrested. It wouldn't matter what happened after leaving the school.

 

[cluciano63]

If they had evidence that she left the school with Kyron, she would be arrested. It wouldn't matter what happened after leaving the school.

I agree-they don't have that. Knowing she took Kyron away from the school and the fact that he was never seen again would certainly be enough to charge with kidnapping, abduction or a custodial charge, at the very least. This point (a witness) and/or finding Kyron are major keys and currently sticking points.

 

[cluciano63]

I just do not see how this case progresses to an arrest without finding Kyron. I know LE has indicated they could try the case without finding him, but I am not so confident. They would need his parents to admit that Kyron is deceased and I don't know if Desiree could ever do that. I remember in the case of a missing young woman, Carrie Culbertson, (still never found), while they did get a conviction for murder in that case, LE had a heck of a time convincing her mom that she had to accept that Carrie was dead and testify to that fact. I think Desiree would have to do the same and I can't see that happening.

 

[Billylee]

tick tock tick tock. The GJ keeps interviewing witnesses.

Building the case. Dotting the "i's". Tick tock tick tock.

Don't overlook anything.

When they are done interviewing all of the numerous witnesses as this was at a school, they will arrest .

The task force is streamlining and organizing the evidence.

No need to arrest until everything is in, documented, and organized. Taui roa!

I thought the grand jury was suspended, have they resumed?

 

[cluciano63]

I saw the title of this thread tonight while browsing and it seemed so obvious to me, of course that is why she has not been indicted. What other reason could there be?

I don't believe they would stall on asking for and getting an indictment if they have plenty of evidence against her.

I do think they need to find Kyron. There have been too many wild tales out there as to what may have happened to him to be able to try this case without finding him, in my opinion. And sadly, with all of the recent arrests of various stripes of perverts in Oregon recently, some of those tales could have merit for the defense.

 

[JBean]

I saw the title of this thread tonight while browsing and it seemed so obvious to me, of course that is why she has not been indicted. What other reason could there be?

I don't believe they would stall on asking for and getting an indictment if they have plenty of evidence against her.

I do think they need to find Kyron. There have been too many wild tales out there as to what may have happened to him to be able to try this case without finding him, in my opinion. And sadly, with all of the recent arrests of various stripes of perverts in Oregon recently, some of those tales could have merit for the defense.

They could be holding out to find Kyron. Scott Peterson was much the same. Months we waited for the arrest, From Dec 24 to April IIRC. They had evidence, they were just waiting for the help of Laci and Conner.During that time we learned a lot about him including an extramarital affair,dishonest and inconsistent behavior, as well as conflicting stories and timelines..
Don't know if that is the case here,but just answering the question"what other reason could their be".

 

[cluciano63]

They could be holding out to find Kyron. Scott Peterson was much the same. Months we waited for the arrest, From Dec 24 to April IIRC. They had evidence, they were just waiting for the help of Laci and Conner.During that time we learned a lot about him including an extramarital affair,dishonest and inconsistent behavior, as well as conflicting stories and timelines..
Don't know if that is the case here,but just answering the question"what other reason could their be".

That is kind of what I mean-they need to find Kyron. At least they had hints of a crime scene with Lacy, some blood in the house and he had been mopping or something. In this case, it is hard to see that they have anything that suggests a physical crime against Kyron, since they have been saying all along they have been looking for a live Kyron.

 

[JBean]

That is kind of what I mean-they need to find Kyron. At least they had hints of a crime scene with Lacy, some blood in the house and he had been mopping or something. In this case, it is hard to see that they have anything that suggests a physical crime against Kyron, since they have been saying all along they have been looking for a live Kyron.

Actually it was just the opposite. I think the only physical evidence was a single hair in the pliers in the boat. The absence of physical evidence at the home was actually quite startling if it was indeed the crime scene. The case was completely circumstantial and in large part based on his character and odd behavior.

The cases are actually quite similar in many respects. the public and media were all over Scott and many were convinced of his guilt prior to arrest and he was defintiely the target of the investigation long before he was named.Laci's family stood behind him at first until they realized from the revelation of his behavior that he was not who they thought he was. They were shocked when they found out some of the things he did which included affairs and dishonesty.

Not trying to rehash the Peterson trial and so we should be careful about derailing the thread. But it is a very nice parallel of this situation with TH in that many people were convinced of his guilt, he was not arrested for many many months, and during that time there was no real evidence as to what happened to Laci. We still have no idea how she died.
It was his behavior and what was revealed he was capable of doing that caused many to fall on the guilt side of the fence.
(of course, there was more to it and I have oversimplified the case for this discussion)

he was watched by LE for all those months while we impatiently waited for his arrest and arrested he was within a few days of Laci and Conner being found.

 

[pufnstuf]

They could be holding out to find Kyron. Scott Peterson was much the same. Months we waited for the arrest, From Dec 24 to April IIRC. They had evidence, they were just waiting for the help of Laci and Conner.During that time we learned a lot about him including an extramarital affair,dishonest and inconsistent behavior, as well as conflicting stories and timelines..
Don't know if that is the case here,but just answering the question"what other reason could their be".

Look at the Mackenzie Cowell case. They had a good idea that Christopher Wilson did it, and he pretty much was an unnamed suspect. DNA results finally came back from the lab in September...

All the while, LE played it cool. They were ridiculed for being "Keystone Cops" and were criticized for letting the case go cold. That never happened in Mackenzie's case. They had their suspect pretty early... and they slowly built their case to the point of being near unimpeachable. None of the case observers knew that they had evidence--the perp's and the victim's DNA on duct tape! None of the case observers knew that Wilson had been caught in several outright lies about his relationship with Mackenzie. None of the case watchers knew that the guy sitting dead center in the memorial photo was responsible for the memorial even happening at all.

I posted this thread because there was a debate about it in another thread and the moderators asked that a new topic be started.

My opinion on evidence is this:

We don't know what investigators and the DA have. We don't know just what they have found. We didn't know in the Mackenzie case, either, and some people made some pretty harsh criticisms of LE, when LE was on top of the case the whole time.

Dohiyi.

 

[sarah7855]

Look at the Mackenzie Cowell case. They had a good idea that Christopher Wilson did it, and he pretty much was an unnamed suspect. DNA results finally came back from the lab in September...

All the while, LE played it cool. They were ridiculed for being "Keystone Cops" and were criticized for letting the case go cold. That never happened in Mackenzie's case. They had their suspect pretty early... and they slowly built their case to the point of being near unimpeachable. None of the case observers knew that they had evidence--the perp's and the victim's DNA on duct tape! None of the case observers knew that Wilson had been caught in several outright lies about his relationship with Mackenzie. None of the case watchers knew that the guy sitting dead center in the memorial photo was responsible for the memorial even happening at all.

I posted this thread because there was a debate about it in another thread and the moderators asked that a new topic be started.

My opinion on evidence is this:

We don't know what investigators and the DA have. We don't know just what they have found. We didn't know in the Mackenzie case, either, and some people made some pretty harsh criticisms of LE, when LE was on top of the case the whole time.

Dohiyi.

ITA, and I'm going to connect a few dots here:

Dot #1
From this article:

In its request to the board, the sheriff's office said it has generated over 3,000 tips that have filled 38 four-inch binders, and has subpoenaed 200 sets of records.

Dot #2
From this article:

"When we release tidbits of information to the public, it's definitely in order to help us solve this case. Until we solve this case, the public does not have a right to know the details. Once we solve the case, they have every right to."

Dots #3, 4, 5, & 6
From this article:

"There was nothing that came out of that presentation that gave me or the district attorney any idea that we’re spinning our wheels or that we’re wasting time ... or allowing it to move into a cold-case scenario," he said, adding that "now we’re in a more confined type of investigation so we’re now able to predict whatever movements we’ll be taking."

and:

"All this information has been compiled, a lot of questions have been answered. We’re now focusing on what we have collected and targeting those areas to help the district attorney’s office to develop a case that they can prosecute successfully."

and:

He added that criticism at the pace of the investigation also has been disheartening, adding that detectives don't want to jeopardize the investigation by sharing information with the public.

and:

This is not one where the investigation and prosecution all occurs in 60 minutes" like a television program.

But the county fully expects a conclusion.

"We are going to try this case," Schrunk said.

When I connect those dots, I conclude that they are working, they have gathered a lot of information, that information has focused their investigation into a certain direction, and they are now working to put all the pieces together to make an airtight case that can be prosecuted. As they work to put those pieces of circumstantial evidence together, they are out searching for Kyron's body (unfortunately) in hopes that will bring them the missing pieces that they need. This is much like the Scott Peterson case with respect to the course that this investigation is taking. In response to those that say "what do you expect them to say? They have no clue and they don't feel confident in their case?", IMO, they'd say no comment or something similar. But they aren't saying that, they are telling us that they are working, they have a lot of info, they are focused in a certain direction, and that they are building a case that they will prosecute in court. I am not sure how people can follow this case, read this stuff, and conclude that they have zero idea who did this and that the case is headed to cold status. That's not what is being said here. The reality is that they are confident that they are going to prosecute this case in the current direction that it's going, and that direction heads right to Terri. They have no obligation to share any details of their investigation with us, and so obviously they know WAYYYY more than we know. They aren't working this case off hunches, they are working with actual cell phone pings and records and witnesses and video survelliance and other actual information, and that information has lead them to Terri. Why some people are missing this glaring fact is not something I understand. We need to trust LE to do their jobs. JMO.

 

[gwenabob]

ITA, and I'm going to connect a few dots here:

Dot #1
From this article:



Dot #2
From this article:



Dots #3, 4, 5, & 6
From this article:


and:

and:

and:


When I connect those dots, I conclude that they are working, they have gathered a lot of information, that information has focused their investigation into a certain direction, and they are now working to put all the pieces together to make an airtight case that can be prosecuted. As they work to put those pieces of circumstantial evidence together, they are out searching for Kyron's body (unfortunately) in hopes that will bring them the missing pieces that they need. This is much like the Scott Peterson case with respect to the course that this investigation is taking. In response to those that say "what do you expect them to say? They have no clue and they don't feel confident in their case?", IMO, they'd say no comment or something similar. But they aren't saying that, they are telling us that they are working, they have a lot of info, they are focused in a certain direction, and that they are building a case that they will prosecute in court. I am not sure how people can follow this case, read this stuff, and conclude that they have zero idea who did this and that the case is headed to cold status. That's not what is being said here. The reality is that they are confident that they are going to prosecute this case in the current direction that it's going, and that direction heads right to Terri. They have no obligation to share any details of their investigation with us, and so obviously they know WAYYYY more than we know. They aren't working this case off hunches, they are working with actual cell phone pings and records and witnesses and video survelliance and other actual information, and that information has lead them to Terri. Why some people are missing this glaring fact is not something I understand. We need to trust LE to do their jobs. JMO.

Thank you just wasn't enough! Bravo!

 

[stmarysmead]

ita, and i'm going to connect a few dots here:

Dot #1
from this article:



Dot #2
from this article:



Dots #3, 4, 5, & 6
from this article:


And:

And:

And:


When i connect those dots, i conclude that they are working, they have gathered a lot of information, that information has focused their investigation into a certain direction, and they are now working to put all the pieces together to make an airtight case that can be prosecuted. As they work to put those pieces of circumstantial evidence together, they are out searching for kyron's body (unfortunately) in hopes that will bring them the missing pieces that they need. This is much like the scott peterson case with respect to the course that this investigation is taking. In response to those that say "what do you expect them to say? They have no clue and they don't feel confident in their case?", imo, they'd say no comment or something similar. But they aren't saying that, they are telling us that they are working, they have a lot of info, they are focused in a certain direction, and that they are building a case that they will prosecute in court. I am not sure how people can follow this case, read this stuff, and conclude that they have zero idea who did this and that the case is headed to cold status. That's not what is being said here. The reality is that they are confident that they are going to prosecute this case in the current direction that it's going, and that direction heads right to terri. They have no obligation to share any details of their investigation with us, and so obviously they know wayyyy more than we know. They aren't working this case off hunches, they are working with actual cell phone pings and records and witnesses and video survelliance and other actual information, and that information has lead them to terri. Why some people are missing this glaring fact is not something i understand. We need to trust le to do their jobs. Jmo.

Bravo!!!! And a deep bow to boot!

 

[Jo in Calif]

ITA, and I'm going to connect a few dots here:

Dot #1
From this article:



Dot #2
From this article:



Dots #3, 4, 5, & 6
From this article:


and:

and:

and:


When I connect those dots, I conclude that they are working, they have gathered a lot of information, that information has focused their investigation into a certain direction, and they are now working to put all the pieces together to make an airtight case that can be prosecuted. As they work to put those pieces of circumstantial evidence together, they are out searching for Kyron's body (unfortunately) in hopes that will bring them the missing pieces that they need. This is much like the Scott Peterson case with respect to the course that this investigation is taking. In response to those that say "what do you expect them to say? They have no clue and they don't feel confident in their case?", IMO, they'd say no comment or something similar. But they aren't saying that, they are telling us that they are working, they have a lot of info, they are focused in a certain direction, and that they are building a case that they will prosecute in court. I am not sure how people can follow this case, read this stuff, and conclude that they have zero idea who did this and that the case is headed to cold status. That's not what is being said here. The reality is that they are confident that they are going to prosecute this case in the current direction that it's going, and that direction heads right to Terri. They have no obligation to share any details of their investigation with us, and so obviously they know WAYYYY more than we know. They aren't working this case off hunches, they are working with actual cell phone pings and records and witnesses and video survelliance and other actual information, and that information has lead them to Terri. Why some people are missing this glaring fact is not something I understand. We need to trust LE to do their jobs. JMO.

Love this, right there with you. Thank You, Thank You, Thank You.

 

[BeanE]

ITA, and I'm going to connect a few dots here:

Dot #1
From this article:



Dot #2
From this article:



Dots #3, 4, 5, & 6
From this article:


and:

and:

and:


When I connect those dots, I conclude that they are working, they have gathered a lot of information, that information has focused their investigation into a certain direction, and they are now working to put all the pieces together to make an airtight case that can be prosecuted. As they work to put those pieces of circumstantial evidence together, they are out searching for Kyron's body (unfortunately) in hopes that will bring them the missing pieces that they need. This is much like the Scott Peterson case with respect to the course that this investigation is taking. In response to those that say "what do you expect them to say? They have no clue and they don't feel confident in their case?", IMO, they'd say no comment or something similar. But they aren't saying that, they are telling us that they are working, they have a lot of info, they are focused in a certain direction, and that they are building a case that they will prosecute in court. I am not sure how people can follow this case, read this stuff, and conclude that they have zero idea who did this and that the case is headed to cold status. That's not what is being said here. The reality is that they are confident that they are going to prosecute this case in the current direction that it's going, and that direction heads right to Terri. They have no obligation to share any details of their investigation with us, and so obviously they know WAYYYY more than we know. They aren't working this case off hunches, they are working with actual cell phone pings and records and witnesses and video survelliance and other actual information, and that information has lead them to Terri. Why some people are missing this glaring fact is not something I understand. We need to trust LE to do their jobs. JMO.

The question that is the topic of the thread is about evidence. I thought the dots were evidence. I don't see a single piece of evidence in the 'dots' in your post, just assertions that, in essence, "yep, we have a lotta stuff, and we're workin' on it". :waitasec:

It looks like the same old "I don't see that LE has anything, I just believe they do" theme.

 

[stmarysmead]

The question that is the topic of the thread is about evidence. I thought the dots were evidence. I don't see a single piece of evidence in the 'dots' in your post, just assertions that, in essence, "yep, we have a lotta stuff, and we're workin' on it". :waitasec:

Well, the way I look at at is...those public assertions by LE and the District Attorney are evidence that ...they say they have evidence.

Public officials made statements assuring us this will go to trial...that they have evidence. They are not willing to tell us any more detail...but I feel those statements are evidence in and of themselves that the case is moving forward to trial successfully.

 

[purple turtle]

To me, everything in this case contradicts everything else--and the doings of LE are among the most puzzling things. It seems surely they could arrest TH for the MFH alone, and use that opportunity to make her miserable in the hopes of sweating info about Kyron's case out of her.

Now Kimster brought up a really good point upthread. If LE is delaying arrest in order to avoid having to provide discovery to the defense--that makes me see things in a different light.

In general I'm a supporter of law enforcement, but it has been puzzling (and maybe a bit annoying) that they have said things like "isolated instance, community is safe" and "we will prosecute this case" which all makes it sound like they know ... and yet they keep mum about things like whether Kyron was signed up for the talent show, and whether he had a dr appt.

Now I need to rethink everything in light of this: maybe rather than the goal being to hide their cards from us, they are hiding their cards from Terri and her lawyer.

Thanks Kimster!

BBM

There is that possibility and also IIRC in Oregon the prosecution has only 40 days before from arrest until they must go to trial. We also need to take that into consideration.

Mike Schrunk is not a typical DA. He is not a climber wanting a political carreer etc ... when he says that there will be a trial then there WILL be a trial. Those words spoke VOLUMES to me as an Oregon resident. They know what they are doing imho.

 

[Dee10]

BBM

There is that possibility and also IIRC in Oregon the prosecution has only 40 days before from arrest until they must go to trial. We also need to take that into consideration.

Mike Schrunk is not a typical DA. He is not a climber wanting a political carreer etc ... when he says that there will be a trial then there WILL be a trial. Those words spoke VOLUMES to me as an Oregon resident. They know what they are doing imho.

That's good to know. I don't understand why direct quotes from the people in charge of the investigation are being written off? I heard it numerous times "I wish LE would give us an update or not be so tight-lipped" but when LE tells you they have a ton of evidence, the case is further along than people realize, that they are taking this case to court, etc. yet some people don't believe them. :snooty:

 

[BeanE]

That's good to know. I don't understand why direct quotes from the people in charge of the investigation are being written off? I heard it numerous times "I wish LE would give us an update or not be so tight-lipped" but when LE tells you they have a ton of evidence, the case is further along than people realize, that they are taking this case to court, etc. yet some people don't believe them. :snooty:

For myself, it's because I can't find any evidence (as I defined evidence in a previous post). In every case I've followed over the years, there were things I could see myself that pointed to a perp - the same perp that LE was explicity pointing to, or came to arrest and charge.

Not so in this case. I just can't find anything.

I can't use Gates' "tons of evidence" statement to give myself warm fuzzies about it, because he said that in response to a question from a reporter specifically about whether LE had Terri on video at the two Fred Meyer stores. And Gates said he would not answer that, but that he would instead say that they have tons of evidence they're going through.

And we all know that everything LE collects gets booked into evidence, whether it's inculpatory, exculpatory, or just plain trash (sometimes literally, as in Caylee's case).

So I know that Gates definitely wasn't saying "we have tons of inculpatory evidence against Terri Moulton Horman". They hadn't even gone through it all yet to sort the inculpatory from the exculpatory from the trash, so how could anyone possibly get warm fuzzies from that?

And that's just my point. LE hasn't pointed to one single shred of evidence and said "this is something inculpatory we have against Terri (or anyone else)".

And I just can't find anything on my own.

Certainly, I could go on blind faith, and whereas, as my long posting history on here on WS clearly shows, I am a very strong supporter and advocate of LE, in this one case, I don't have the confidence I have always had in LE. It's very difficult for me. I don't like feeling this way.

I wish LE would give me a crumb, or that I could find one on my own. It is certainly not for lack of trying. I've studied this case inside out and backwards every single day from the very beginning. Believe me, it astounds me that I can find nothing, because I like getting into the nitty gritty tedious details, and I'm not half bad at finding things, connecting the dots if you will. But in this case, I just haven't been able to, and it's upsetting. I don't have a clue what happened to this child, except that he disappeared.