jury is out until Wednesday 21 March: general discussion thread

[nonfictionrocks]

Renton refused to explain why there was a gap of about a week from when police knew about the male suspect to when he was arrested, saying that information was part of the case.

http://www.chathamdailynews.ca/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1576508&archive=true

Im still searching for the post on the door to door search...

Don't worrying about finding the link for the door to door search, honest, I won't lose any sleep over it, or use it against you in a court of law

 

[SmoothOperator]

There is one claim by TLM that keeps playing over and over in my mind:

"I knew it. I knew you were all talk and no action."



What talk? What had she said before? It made me wonder why MR would say this to her. Would it be because it was TLM herself and not MTR who came up with the abduction plan? Is it because he brought it up before and she agreed to do it? This doesn’t sound like something he would say to her if she had refused his suggestion, as she claims. It sounds a lot to me like she must have either thought of it herself, or at least agreed to do it.

And that further makes me wonder if we’ll be seeing any testimony from psychiatrists who examined TLM since her confession. There is a psychological mechanism where people will project their own thoughts, emotions, etc. onto another person. Could this be carried further into projecting one’s actions (i.e. sexual assault) onto someone else?

(Respectfully snipped)

I'd like to look at this from a different angle.

• She is the one who did the actual abducting. She could have refused.
  
  
• She could have changed her mind and let Tori go on the way to the car.
  
  
• She could have fled the car with Tori while he went into Tim Hortons.
  
  
• She could have fled the car with Tori while he was using the ATM.
  
  
• She could have fled the car with Tori while he was purchasing drugs in Guelph.

• She is the one who purchased the murder weapon.
  
  
• She could have gone into Home Depot, used their phone and called LE to report the abduction.

• She could have seized that hammer while Tori was allegedly abused and used it on MR to protect Tori.
  
  
• She could have used the hammer on MR instead of Tori after the alleged abuse.
  
  
• She could have gone to LE when she got home ... or anytime after that.
  
  
• She could have confessed any time within the six weeks before it was finally coerced out of her.

But she didn’t do any of these things. If everything she testified this week is true, there are no excuses good enough. She had multiple chances to prevent this terrible disaster, but she did not. And when she did confess six week later, she lied and said MR murdered Tori.

It is MOO that TLM is at least as culpable as MR. His role is yet to be proven and I anxiously await the evidence that he did everything TLM has accused him of. TLM -- the self-admitted liar, junkie, and coward with six prior convictions on her sheet.


JMO

Why the continual need to attempt to paint one *** more evil than the other? They are both evil and they are both guilty just as the Crown stated they are in it together.. I don't give a damn who wielded the hammer In my book they're both *** but by and far a landslide Michael Rafferty's evil trumps TLM by miles... and while I honestly believe it most likely that TLM wielded the hammer.. atleast at this point I believe itlikely to be TLM..its no matter as it still pales in comparison to the sexual deviance and evil in the *** that multiple times brutally raped this tiny child.. he deserves zero flattery of being the lesser of the two evils..:moo:

And am awaiting the trial because I actually am for the first time of the frame of mind that its even possible that it could be Rafferty that not only lusted after babies.. lusted after defenseless helpless babies and followed thru with that Lust in multiple times raping this precious tiny girl.. but he just may be the <self induced modsnip> that wielded the hammer as well..

In the end no matter they are both *** and to find a way to paint Rafferty in any other light than evil is a disgrace to Victoria Stafford and the pain and terror she suffered and endured.. moo.

I have heard people wondering whether MR maybe went back later and collected evidence that was scattered about the sides of the 401... To me, that is completely implausible! Can you really imagine him driving down the 401 going at least somewhere between 80-100kms per hour, trying to catch sight along the side of the road (from the driver's side no less) things they might have left behind all while trying to drive safely enough not to get himself killed?? I believe it was the clothes they threw out the window. Not sure whether these would have been in garbage bags or not?

http://www.thestar.com/news/article...cclintic-describes-how-they-covered-up-murder
&#8220;When I got into the car, I took my clothing off,&#8221; she said. They threw the clothing out the window as they cruised down Hwy. 401 on way back to Woodstock.

The same article notes other evidence was thrown into a dumpster - how would he have gone back to get that? Did he go dumpster diving? I'm not sure if the evidence would still have even been there because it would depend on when the dumpster was collected by the company that owns the bin. Maybe this is one reason why the police were searching landfills - perhaps they were looking for the things that TLM says were tossed in the dumpster?

You really think its ridiculous? Because IMO I guarantee-damn-tee you he was out there scouring for any evidence that would nail him when his juvie lover spilled the beans.. and I'd guarantee there was more than one trip made if necessary to attempt to move/destroy those pieces that were directly tied to him.. again I really don't get the MR is not as guilty as TLM declarations.. IMO its disgusting and IMO its irreverent to Tori and what that precious child suffered through multiple brutal rapes by *** Michael Rafferty! It is his blood that is mixed with Tori's and it is him alone who inflicted the brutal monstrous rapes! He is every bit just as guilty and EVEN MORE in my book!

BBM

I think that would be the biggest deterrent for a would-be child molester or murderer.

I wonder when TLM returns to prison after the trial if they will have to move her to a securer living quarter. Up until the trial started she lead everyone to believe MTR was a child murderer when in fact she is the child murderer. I wonder how her pals in prison are going take to this new development.

IMO it sickens me to see how that she likely has a quite enjoyable life.. not only is she not in SOME type solitary confinement but obviously gets along quite fabulously with her prison mates.. you don't think she's doing all those cutesy hairdos and updos with her braided cornrows and such? :devil:

 

[flipflop]

Don't worrying about finding the link for the door to door search, honest, I won't lose any sleep over it, or use it against you in a court of law

Good, because I cannot find it, it was a post from Aug/09 in this thread. LOL thats the best I can do, as I am off to bed!
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87726"]Canada-**FOUND** Victoria Stafford, 8, Woodstock, Ontario; thread #27 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

 

[avenger]

Tori's Law signing for petition letter to Stephen Harper.
Re-open the death sentence debate for child killers.

http://www.change.org/petitions/tori-s-law

 

[dilbert]

http://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/dept-min/pub/just/06.html

If you are charged with an offence under federal or provincial law you also have the right

to be presumed innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt in a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal,

 

[antiquegirl]

Renton refused to explain why there was a gap of about a week from when police knew about the male suspect to when he was arrested, saying that information was part of the case.

http://www.chathamdailynews.ca/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1576508&archive=true

Im still searching for the post on the door to door search...

Thanks, FF.

FWIW, Mabel had also mentioned that MTR was questioned on Friday, May 15. Or, at least, that's what he told her. She had also said that he had spent that night and Sunday night at her place. But when she voluntarily went to LE some days after the arrest, LE didn't seem to know who she was or of any connection to MTR. Which led her to believe that he hadn't been followed or LE should have known he spent the week-end with her. This is her post about him being questioned:

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4036656&postcount=370"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Canada-**FOUND** Victoria Stafford, 8, Woodstock, Ontario; thread #26[/ame]


JMO

 

[brighidin]

Thanks, FF.

FWIW, Mabel had also mentioned that MTR was questioned on Friday, May 15. Or, at least, that's what he told her. She had also said that he had spent that night and Sunday night at her place. But when she voluntarily went to LE some days after the arrest, LE didn't seem to know who she was or of any connection to MTR. Which led her to believe that he hadn't been followed or LE should have known he spent the week-end with her. This is her post about him being questioned:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Canada-**FOUND** Victoria Stafford, 8, Woodstock, Ontario; thread #26
JMO

Was Mabel ever verified as an insider? I found this: [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87706"]Ask the INSIDERS - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

and a post from Tricia asking people claiming to be insiders to step away and/or speak to LE. If "Mabel" wasn't verified, this information is questionable, at best.

jmo

 

[swedie]

Maybe he didn't go into Home Depot because he didn't need anything

You very well could be right. :moo:MR figured he was going to do his part, the sexual assault which he fantasized about, he figured he would put TLM up to the dastardly deed of murder. MR told her go into HD to purchase the weapon to be used. Afterall, MR did want TLM's contribution in this crime as we all know now according to the Crown's opening statement and what TLM claims. He wanted and dared TLM to abduct a little girl so he could sexually assault her and then he wanted TLM to do the murdering. I am still unsure who I feel is the one to bludgeon Tori with the hammer, but to me, it doesn't matter at this point, I believe Tori was so badly damaged before the hammer blows, death was inevitable. In my honest opinion, sounds like MR was the master planner, one to give the orders and a control freak in this horrific case.:moo:

:twocents:MHO, yes I do believe most of TLM's testimony thus far in this trial, as I concede she has nothing to gain, only more to lose now that she has confessed to Tori's murder.

At one point in the car McClintic said Rafferty told her &#8220;We can&#8217;t just keep her and we can&#8217;t take her back.&#8221;

McClintic also told the court that after the abduction, [I]she was instructed by Rafferty to go into a Home Depot store in Guelph, Ont., and purchase a claw hammer and garbage bags.

When they got there, she panicked and &#8220;Mike&#8221; began yelling at her to &#8220;Hurry up, hurry up.&#8221;

She described how he became &#8220;frustrated&#8221; that the two were talking so much.

&#8220;At one point, I had to lean back in my seat so I that I could talk to her better,&#8221; said McClintic. &#8220;He yelled at me to lean my seat forward and to keep her f&#8211;&#8211;&#8211;ing covered.&#8221;

Also about MR's cell phone and the battery.
McClintic told the court Rafferty had removed the battery from his cellphone as they drove on the Ontario highway. At one point, he shut off a CD he was playing to monitor the local radio stations in case there were any missing child reports. My addition: I wonder if MR put the battery back into his BB in Guelph, in order to call BA for percs.:waitasec:

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/0...hen-left-tori-stafford-with-michael-rafferty/

 

[daisy.faithfull]

:woohoo:Welcome avenger!:woohoo:​

 

[antiquegirl]

Was Mabel ever verified as an insider? I found this: Ask the INSIDERS - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

and a post from Tricia asking people claiming to be insiders to step away and/or speak to LE. If "Mabel" wasn't verified, this information is questionable, at best.

jmo

I can't be sure. I assumed that since Mabel was posting as late as February 2011, that she was verified. She is still a member here. But you'd have to ask Tricia.

I'm confused as to what information in this post is questionable? The only info she provides is:

"As far as I know this was not scheduled. AG is right about them interviewing a lot of Woodstock residents over the course of the investigation. His mother's house was part of the initial canvassing door to door also."

What is so controversial or personal here that would make it questionable? I don't even know what the first sentence is referring to, but she says "As far as I know", anyway. It would make sense that since LE was canvassing door-to-door in Woodstock extensively, that MTR's house would be one of them. What is there to object to or question? Is there something you doubt? I don't understand the problem here.

JMO

 

[swedie]

I just want to confirm something because there was so much information wrong and right floating around. Was MR and TS in the car at Home Depot? Is it confirmed that they were both in the car?

The video of Tori being led away by TLM to MR's car in the nursing home parking lot is the only video LE have of her. In the nursing home parking lot Tori was forced onto the floor, behind MR's seat. She was not allowed to sit on the seat because MR was afraid she would be seen by someone. He was obviously paranoid there could have been a search out for Tori. He took the CD out of his car stereo in order to listen to radio, to hear if there was a missing child alert. Tori was in MR's car from the time she was shoved into it by TLM until she reached the location where her body was left by MR and TLM and her remains were found by Det. Smyth in Mount Forest. :'( HTH

 

[swedie]

&#8220;I&#8216;ll see you tomorrow, hon.&#8221;

Those were Jennifer Griffin Murrel&#8217;s last words to Tori Stafford as the little girl left school on the afternoon of April 8 2009, minutes before she was abducted.

&#8220;She was just a lovely little girl,&#8221; said Murrel as her voice cracked. &#8220;She was very inquisitive and always wanted to know why. She was very well liked by her peers and the staff and teachers.&#8221;

Murrel called Tori a &#8220;mother hen&#8221; to the younger kids. &#8220;She was a caring little girl... very sensitive.&#8221;

&#8220;After the second recess, Tori came in and wanted to know if she could go home and get a change of clothes because she fell into a puddle,&#8221; said Murrel with a tiny smile. Turned out, Tori and her friend had been jumping into a puddle of water, said Murrel.

She told Tori that she could not go home and the little girl took it well.

Earlier on Monday afternoon, the jury heard in the Crown&#8217;s opening address that when Tori&#8217;s body was found, she was naked waist down, had multiple broken ribs and a lacerated liver, injuries that came before repeated blows to her head with a hammer.

&#8220;On whole, the injuries were fatal,&#8221; said Kevin Gowdey, assistant crown.

&#8220;The pathologist will describe that a hammer caused massive injuries,&#8221; he added.

Gowdey warned the jurors that there would be a lot of evidence: not just photos but other proof too that would tie Rafferty to Tori. Like Tori&#8216;s DNA obtained from his car, his BlackBerry records which, Gowdey said, will show Rafferty was in Mount Forest the day Tori was abducted, also her last day alive.

The crown will also present evidence of how the couple tried to cover their tracks: Rafferty, Gowdey said, tried to get rid of his car and his BlackBerry while a search of his house turned up a receipt for hair-dye that McClintic bought after a surveillance video was released which showed her leading Tori away.

http://www.guelphmercury.com/print/article/682495

This evidence on MR is still to come as the Crown has not reached that chapter yet. Maybe next week? Lots of evidence Mr. Gowdey claims. Wasn't it over 1000 pieces? I heard something like a huge amount for a case such as this.

 

[swedie]

Typically cash machines at gas stations and variety stores are smaller and probably without a camera. Perhaps he thought by using one of those instead of a bank ATM, he would avoid camera detection. I think he forgot or didn't realize that gas stations, especially a Petro Canada, would have cameras installed.

Also gas station kiosks usually have security camera within them. I guess just in case of a robbery. :moo:

 

[swedie]

Does anyone know if MR will testify?

I don't think the defense will make that decision until they are right near the end of the trial. The defense will want to see how the Crown plays out their part and learn what evidence the Crown has against the accused. Of course the defense cannot stop MR from speaking out on his own behalf, but why would he? This is why he is using the defense team he has. MR is hoping they will be able to find some loop hole to get him off of the charges of abduction, sexual assault causing bodily harm and murder. Typically the accused does not take the stand, as they could divulge information when being questioned by the Crown, that could damage their own case. I highly doubt MR will be taking the stand. My gut tells me the Crown has a very strong case against MR. JMHO.:cheerful::justice:

 

[swedie]

We only heard her side so far (that is what she said but keep in mind she paid for the stay at the Super 8 so she has cash of her own too) and her story has changed quite drastically. Maybe he picked up more money because he gave all he had to BA and still needed to buy TLM and TS some dinner IDK. I would love to see the entire Statement of Facts, not the edited version released to the media from when she pled gulity because IMO, I think some things have changed since then.

NFR do you have a link to show me where TLM said she paid for the stay at the Super 8 motel? Do you think that is when those three pictures of her were taken wearing MR's shirt? She looks all rosy and flushed and her hair seems to be somewhat wet. Wonder if she just showered, swam or maybe sweating; too warm in the room or exerting herself somehow. Do the type of drugs she was consuming make one perspire or flush? Wonder if that particular Super 8 has a swimming pool?

 

[daisy.faithfull]

We only heard her side so far (that is what she said but keep in mind she paid for the stay at the Super 8 so she has cash of her own too) and her story has changed quite drastically. Maybe he picked up more money because he gave all he had to BA and still needed to buy TLM and TS some dinner IDK. I would love to see the entire Statement of Facts, not the edited version released to the media from when she pled gulity because IMO, I think some things have changed since then.

NFR do you have a link to show me where TLM said she paid for the stay at the Super 8 motel? Do you think that is when those three pictures of her were taken wearing MR's shirt? She looks all rosy and flushed and her hair seems to be somewhat wet. Wonder if she just showered, swam or maybe sweating; too warm in the room or exerting herself somehow. Do the type of drugs she was consuming make one perspire or flush? Wonder if that particular Super 8 has a swimming pool?

I don't know about the other stuff, but I believe they did say that the pictures of TLM with MTR's shirt was taken at the Super 8. I'll go look for tweets.

About the flushing, I'm going to say maybe a shower, but they did get the room so they could have sex somewhere other than his car and he could wake up and see her face. Barf.

 

[~n/t~]

The only westernized country that practices capital punishment is the United States. All other westernized countries hold hope for criminals and use various methods to attempt to rehabilitate them. I view the treatment of prisoners as an evolving process and think it would be a huge mistake for Canada to suddenly throw her hands in the air and claim that there is nothing to be done with criminals other than murder them. It would be a huge step backwards to practice capital punishment - something I view as barbaric.

Let's take McClintic. She had an unbelievably tragic life. If she had been raised in a normal home with good values and opportunity, there's an equal chance that she would have grown up to be a contributing member of society. I don't think that she's hopeless. I think that with 25 years of living a controlled life in prison, she does have the possibility of being reformed/rehabilitated. Rafferty is probably a different case. He had a pretty normal life, but he still developed an abnormal interest in young girls. I don't think that's treatable, so after he has his 25 years, he should probably always be monitored.

I disagree with your opinion of McClintic. Unfortunately, we have come to a sad realization that women can be just as evil when it comes to harming children. There is no rehabilitation for anyone who would kidnap and murder an 8 year old child. No way. She's a dangerous offender and should be locked up for life (if we had the death penalty, she should've been on that list).

IMO

 

[~n/t~]

Does anyone know if MR will testify?

Doubt it.

 

[~n/t~]

Are you going to be the person who puts the needle in and administer the deadly drug? People like to talk big, but when it comes down to it, could they do it?

I doubt it. There's a reason there is more than one man on a firing squad.

These types of debates are always funny to me, not funny "haha" but funny in that everyone that is ok with the death penalty are "ok" with it as long as it's someone else that is actually doing the killing. Maybe all the people that are pro death should each take turns being the executioner. <modsnip>

I'd have no problem if it was proven beyond a reasonable doubt that the offender brutally murdered an innocent child. Of course, I'd give the parents or any family member that opportunity to do it first, if they so wished. Oh and forget the last meal thing. Total waste.

 

[matou]

Someone was wondering why it only took TLM 7 minutes or so to find a hammer to buy and the garbage bags. The aisles are well marked. Also, MR could have told her where to find a hammer, since he is a 'contractor'. I remember a tweet where she claimed to have help him with getting materials for building a fence. JMO