jury is out until Wednesday 21 March: general discussion thread

[SmoothOperator]

Originally Posted by antique girl
And another discrepancy that confuses me.

Quote: I don't give a damn who wielded the hammer

Quote: I honestly believe it most likely that TLM wielded the hammer

Quote: but he just may be the <self induced modsnip> that wielded the hammer as well..

The three above snipped quotes are mine.. IMO my post(in its full context rather than snipped apart) stated clearly what my opinion is of both of these individuals.. I will not repeat it all over again the point regarding the hammer is that AT THIS TIME it seems most likely to be TLM to have wielded the hammer.. however I am awaiting the remainder of the trial as for the first time I am finding it all together POSSIBLE that Rafferty in fact not only brutally raped this small child, Tori Stafford but also MAY have been the one to wield the hammer.. IMO there is no discrepancy whatsoever and my bottom line remains the same regardless of whether Rafferty wielded the hammer...THEY BOTH ARE **** AND IMO RAFFERTY DOESN'T DESERVE THE FLATTERY OF BEING PAINTED AS THE LESSER OF TWO EVILS.. THAT IS MY OPINION.

 

[Alethea Dice]

NFR do you have a link to show me where TLM said she paid for the stay at the Super 8 motel? Do you think that is when those three pictures of her were taken wearing MR's shirt? She looks all rosy and flushed and her hair seems to be somewhat wet. Wonder if she just showered, swam or maybe sweating; too warm in the room or exerting herself somehow. Do the type of drugs she was consuming make one perspire or flush? Wonder if that particular Super 8 has a swimming pool?

Here are some tweets from March 14th regarding the motel stay.

London Free Press@RaffertyLFPReply Court sees McClintic's bank record from early 2009 - includes debit entry for pizza place they first met and Super 8 motel

.James Armstrong@jamesarmstrong7Reply McClintic laughed a little bit when crown points out highlight on debit history.

London Free Press@RaffertyLFPReply Court see photo of McClintic -she says it was taken during their night at Super 8 motelk

Cynthia Mulligan@CityCynthiaReply #rafferty - now looking at photos of McClintic on bed at Super 8 motel, night she spend with Rafferty, she's wearing his shirt, looks happy

According to this, she paid for the room and the pictures were taken during that stay at the Super 8 motel. Not too sure of the relevance of whether she was exerting herself or swimming.:blushing:

 

[Alethea Dice]

I wonder what TLM bought at Pawntario (pawn shop) the day she met MR at the pizza place. It was 2 purchases after the pizza , as shown in the pic of her transactions in the link below. Also, wasn't there a bust at that pawn shop shortly after her arrest????

http://www.am980.ca/Other/McClintic.pdf

Yes, there was.

http://http://www.woodstocksentinelreview.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1647474

The link doesn't seem to work for me so I'l copy the article here.

Business owner arrested

Wednesday, July 8, 2009 12:00 AM EDT

WOODSTOCK - On Tuesday, during the evening hours, the Oxford Community Police Service made two arrests and seized a significant quantity of stolen goods after conducting a search of a Woodstock business.

Acting on information received from the Stratford Police Service, members of the Oxford Community Police Service Criminal Investigations Branch entered Pawntario, located at 451 Dundas St., recovering items stolen from a Stratford area Canadian Tire. Under further authority of a search warrant, police seized approximately $25,000 worth of stolen tools and electronics.

Police have charged the business owner Kenneth Richard Wilson, 36 of Woodstock, and employee Robbie Martin Wilson, 28 of East Zorra Tavistock with Possession Over $5000. They are to attend court on August 18, to answer to the charges.

Deleted and resubmitted to include the post I was replying to.

 

[Oldsoul2]

JMO I think TLM is being truthful....now. When she stated that she lied as she did not want MR to (rape) do this to any other child, therefore back in May she told Smyth that MR killed VS. Now that she is under oath, her truth is coming out. I feel that MR had it planned to manipulate TLM into helping him kidnap a child. She went along with what the man of her dreams was asking of her, she would do anything to please him. I believe her rage would have been building during the rape. I think MR got the garbage bags out and covered her. After the rape I think MR very easily manipulated her again and said we cant let her go. In a round about way conviced TLM that someone needed to kill her and her rage blew and she killed her. JMO

Also IMO, she knew that he wouldn't stop and he wouldn't let her go and it's pretty obvious that she herself has experienced sexual abuse considering her flashbacks and maybe TLM wished she would have died instead of having to survive the abuse.

 

[maxfactor]

Originally Posted by SmoothOperator View Post
Why the continual need to attempt to paint one *** more evil than the other? They are both evil and they are both guilty just as the Crown stated they are in it together.. I don't give a damn who wielded the hammer In my book they're both *** but by and far a landslide Michael Rafferty's evil trumps TLM by miles... and while I honestly believe it most likely that TLM wielded the hammer.. atleast at this point I believe itlikely to be TLM..its no matter as it still pales in comparison to the sexual deviance and evil in the *** that multiple times brutally raped this tiny child.. he deserves zero flattery of being the lesser of the two evils..

And am awaiting the trial because I actually am for the first time of the frame of mind that its even possible that it could be Rafferty that not only lusted after babies.. lusted after defenseless helpless babies and followed thru with that Lust in multiple times raping this precious tiny girl.. but he just may be the <self induced modsnip> that wielded the hammer as well..

In the end no matter they are both *** and to find a way to paint Rafferty in any other light than evil is a disgrace to Victoria Stafford and the pain and terror she suffered and endured.. moo.


You really think its ridiculous? Because IMO I guarantee-damn-tee you he was out there scouring for any evidence that would nail him when his juvie lover spilled the beans.. and I'd guarantee there was more than one trip made if necessary to attempt to move/destroy those pieces that were directly tied to him.. again I really don't get the MR is not as guilty as TLM declarations.. IMO its disgusting and IMO its irreverent to Tori and what that precious child suffered through multiple brutal rapes by *** Michael Rafferty! It is his blood that is mixed with Tori's and it is him alone who inflicted the brutal monstrous rapes! He is every bit just as guilty and EVEN MORE in my book!



IMO it sickens me to see how that she likely has a quite enjoyable life.. not only is she not in SOME type solitary confinement but obviously gets along quite fabulously with her prison mates.. you don't think she's doing all those cutesy hairdos and updos with her braided cornrows and such?

Thank you smooth operator!!! I couldn't have said it better myself!!!:rocker:

 

[maxfactor]

Tori's Law signing for petition letter to Stephen Harper.
Re-open the death sentence debate for child killers.

http://www.change.org/petitions/tori-s-law

Thanks for posting here! Signed up and shared!!!

 

[SmoothOperator]

There is one claim by TLM that keeps playing over and over in my mind:

"I knew it. I knew you were all talk and no action."



What talk? What had she said before? It made me wonder why MR would say this to her. Would it be because it was TLM herself and not MTR who came up with the abduction plan? Is it because he brought it up before and she agreed to do it? This doesn’t sound like something he would say to her if she had refused his suggestion, as she claims. It sounds a lot to me like she must have either thought of it herself, or at least agreed to do it.

And that further makes me wonder if we’ll be seeing any testimony from psychiatrists who examined TLM since her confession. There is a psychological mechanism where people will project their own thoughts, emotions, etc. onto another person. Could this be carried further into projecting one’s actions (i.e. sexual assault) onto someone else?

Interesting explanation here:

“Psychological projection or projection bias is a psychological defense mechanism where a person subconsciously denies his or her own attributes, thoughts, and emotions, which are then ascribed to the outside world, usually to other people. Thus, projection involves imagining or projecting the belief that others originate those feelings.[1] Projection reduces anxiety by allowing the expression of the unwanted unconscious impulses or desires without letting the conscious mind recognize them.”

Psychological projection - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What else could she have attributed to MTR that may have actually been herself? The B&E plan? She was the one with the criminal record for robbery. Doesn't it make sense that this could have been her idea and not his? That she was projecting her own thoughts/words/feelings onto someone else? She was also the one with the previous convictions for assault. Not a big stretch here to imagine that she was projecting.

Just trying to come up with some alternate theories. The upcoming cross-examination and evidence presented by the defence could bring some surprises.

JMO

(Respectfully snipped)

I'd like to look at this from a different angle.

• She is the one who did the actual abducting. She could have refused.
  
  
• She could have changed her mind and let Tori go on the way to the car.
  
  
• She could have fled the car with Tori while he went into Tim Hortons.
  
  
• She could have fled the car with Tori while he was using the ATM.
  
  
• She could have fled the car with Tori while he was purchasing drugs in Guelph.

• She is the one who purchased the murder weapon.
  
  
• She could have gone into Home Depot, used their phone and called LE to report the abduction.

• She could have seized that hammer while Tori was allegedly abused and used it on MR to protect Tori.
  
  
• She could have used the hammer on MR instead of Tori after the alleged abuse.
  
  
• She could have gone to LE when she got home ... or anytime after that.
  
  
• She could have confessed any time within the six weeks before it was finally coerced out of her.

But she didn’t do any of these things. If everything she testified this week is true, there are no excuses good enough. She had multiple chances to prevent this terrible disaster, but she did not. And when she did confess six week later, she lied and said MR murdered Tori.

It is MOO that TLM is at least as culpable as MR. His role is yet to be proven and I anxiously await the evidence that he did everything TLM has accused him of. TLM -- the self-admitted liar, junkie, and coward with six prior convictions on her sheet.


JMO

I have heard people wondering whether MR maybe went back later and collected evidence that was scattered about the sides of the 401... To me, that is completely implausible! Can you really imagine him driving down the 401 going at least somewhere between 80-100kms per hour, trying to catch sight along the side of the road (from the driver's side no less) things they might have left behind all while trying to drive safely enough not to get himself killed?? I believe it was the clothes they threw out the window. Not sure whether these would have been in garbage bags or not?

http://www.thestar.com/news/article...cclintic-describes-how-they-covered-up-murder
“When I got into the car, I took my clothing off,” she said. They threw the clothing out the window as they cruised down Hwy. 401 on way back to Woodstock.

The same article notes other evidence was thrown into a dumpster - how would he have gone back to get that? Did he go dumpster diving? I'm not sure if the evidence would still have even been there because it would depend on when the dumpster was collected by the company that owns the bin. Maybe this is one reason why the police were searching landfills - perhaps they were looking for the things that TLM says were tossed in the dumpster?

Had I carried a child for nine months, nursed him, changed his diapers, nurtured and loved him, no matter what crime he was convicted of, I would not want him to spend the next 25 - 50 years under these conditions:

Even this would be heartbreaking had I mothered this monster:

Some people might prefer that we return to prison cells such as this:

http://www.lorrifreedman.com/Photog...84252_G83H5F#!i=1435613174&k=xP5QfkX&lb=1&s=L​

... or this:

But Canada is supposed to be a civilized country. We are not in Turkey or Afghanistan. We are supposed to treat everyone humanely, even criminals.

The first two pictures are from Canada. They do not look like any lap of luxury to me. I don't believe that anyone would want to spend even a month like this, much less a lifetime.

From the website of the first image:





http://m.theglobeandmail.com/news/p...punish-inmates/article2237630/?service=mobile

Yes, of course I want criminals punished - appropriately and for a duration commensurate with the severity of their crimes. No, I don't want them living in a Club Med environment. But I do believe in a humane treatment of all human beings and not reverting to Draconian conditions. Maybe I'm just a bleeding heart liberal. Or maybe I'm just a mother who tries to put herself in everybody's shoes.

Think about it: if it were your child sent to prison for the rest of his life, how would you want him treated?

JMO

:twocents:
:cowcouch:

R.I.P., Tori. Sadly, nothing can bring you back now.

If it were my son(and I do in fact have a son who is my only child)to have done such unspeakable atrocities as were done to Tori without a single shadow of a doubt I would want him put away for life.. we have raised our son with a stable, loving home with a firm foundation of morals, respect and the difference between right and wrong beginning at a very young age.. throughout his lifetime he was dealt age appropriate consequences for times when he screwed up, made bad and poor decisions, or blatantly disobeyed or disregarded anyone in an authority position.. he is far from perfect just like me and you, but is known for his being a caring, sensitive hard worker that befriends those that others may shun and I couldn't be more proud of the young man that he has become.. I love him with every fiber of my being.. but if he had inflicted such brutality on a child I would want nothing less than him to have to suffer the consequences.. yes, those consequences are ugly as hell and yes, it literally destroys the hearts of the loved ones to see their child having to live quite likely the remainder of their lives in such hellish conditions.. I haven't a single doubt that it would even quite likely shorten my life by decades from literally mourning myself to death.. but THERE MUST BE CONSEQUENCES AND WHEN THE CRIME IS OF SUCH HEINOUS PROPORTIONS SO TOO SHOULD THE APPROPRIATE CONSEQUENCES BE..

My God I wantthe criminals to look at the reality of those photos and see the hellish eternity that awaits them should they so choose to commit crimes of such magnitude.. It is supposed to be a damn deterrent to make criminals realize ahead of time that so should they CHOOSE to take part in heinous criminal acts so too will it be there severe consequence as well..

There isn't supposed to be a damn thing PLEASANT about these consequences (and to be honest there are way to many pleasurable benefits already for the convicted criminals JMO) .. I want it to be very clear what SEVERE CONSEQUENCES THERE ARE FOR THOSE WHO TAKE PART IN HEINOUS CRIMINAL ACTS AS WHAT WAS DONE TO PRECIOUS TORI STAFFORD..

ALL JMO THO!

 

[KMouse]

snipped for brevity - the defense knows NOW what "evidence" the crown has.

Exactly. It's called "discovery" and they have to submit all their evidence to the defence.

 

[swedie]

I am extremely thankful LE were able to take TLM in so quickly after Tori's disappearance on her outstanding warrant and received tips identifying TLM in the CASS video. I imagine sadly, there would have been more disgusting abductions, sexual assaults and murders to follow Tori's, had TLM not been taken in. Thank God for the CASS video and the people who called in those tips suspecting the woman in the video was TLM. But more than anything, I am extremely grateful for TLM's confession, she had the common sense once prodded, to tell LE MR was also involved. Had TLM not turned MR in, I have no doubt MR would have went on to abduct children on his own. As in past cases similar to Tori's, sexual deviants, once started cannot seem to stop until they are caught.

I believe TLM was honest in her claim Tori was abducted at random. Although there seems to be coincidental connections to TLM, CM, TM and JG, I assume that's all it is... coincidences. Maybe the actual connection comes from MR's side to connect TM and JG. If so, that would certainly show more of his involvement and planning "if" Tori was targeted. Then again that couldn't have been the case if I am to believe TLM because he did tell TLM he was upset because Tori was not young enough. That still didn't stop him thought from carrying out his sexual abuse of Tori though...how sick. The fact Tori was sought out for sexual purposes shows who is the more evil of the two. JMHO. Poor innocent baby. Justice please.

 

[flipflop]

I think this Super8 thing has to do with her credibility. Yes, she lies, but not all the time. It is also 'proof' that they did know each other and were in fact dating. As she claims. A lot of what has been shown so far, in my opinion, was to prove/disprove her credibility. I think they anticipated something going wrong, so they might have wanted to establish that some of what she says IS true. Just my opinion. :moo:

I was thinking that the Super 8 has to do with MR possibly denying that he was TLM's BF. It has been stated here that MR told others that she was a family friend. I believe it is also brought up to show TLM's credibility. With LE showing pics of them at the movies, the motel ,etc leads me to to this opinion.

 

[daisy.faithfull]

HE paid for the motel:

It was not that he even wined her or dined her — during their two-month courtship, he took her to the movies once, to Winners and sprung for a night at a Super 8 motel.

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/ToriStafford/2012/03/14/19504061.html

Thanks for getting that Matou! I thought she had paid too.

The article also contains the pic of TLM and notes that it was taken there.

 

[flipflop]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2012/03/16/tori-stafford-tim-danson.html

^new article from today

Thanks for posting this article, it is a very good read!!! Hats off to Tim Danson for all that he does for victims families.

In the article, it states that he is NOT representing Tori's family....who is?

 

[KMouse]

I was thinking that the Super 8 has to do with MR possibly denying that he was TLM's BF. It has been stated here that MR told others that she was a family friend. I believe it is also brought up to show TLM's credibility. With LE showing pics of them at the movies, the motel ,etc leads me to to this opinion.

I have a feeling you are correct. MR used TLM and she was probably his girlfriend when it was convenient for him.

Are there any pics anywhere that show TLM & MR together as a couple? A lot of times new couples have pictures of themselves together.
Did they ever go out as a couple with friends?

 

[matou]

I have a feeling you are correct. MR used TLM and she was probably his girlfriend when it was convenient for him.

Are there any pics anywhere that show TLM & MR together as a couple? A lot of times new couples have pictures of themselves together.
Did they ever go out as a couple with friends?

He was going with at least one other woman at the same time so I don't think he would have been parading her around town, KWIM? JMO

http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories/20090521/stafford_suspects_090521/

 

[flipflop]

I have a feeling you are correct. MR used TLM and she was probably his girlfriend when it was convenient for him.

Are there any pics anywhere that show TLM & MR together as a couple? A lot of times new couples have pictures of themselves together.
Did they ever go out as a couple with friends?

The term "pillow pal" comes to mind when I think of what MR thought of TLM, I do not believe that he once considered TLM his GF. The video at the movie theatre where TLM is trying to get close and cozy up to him, he more or less pushes her away. This was probably the most attention that anyone has ever paid her, she hit the jackpot - he had a car, a supposed job, designer clothes, a life (as she called it) she fell head over heals for him. I believe that MR had a plan in his head, to find an uneducated, druggie female who he could easily manipulate to fulfill his fantasy of raping a child. Hook, line and sinker....he accomplished it!!!!! Ending this so called relationship was easy for him, he stated that they shouldnt be seen together or contact each other shortly after the crime. (Hence the reason why he left the hair dye by the payphone and not deliver it to her) The only reason IMO why he continued contact with her was after she was arrested on another issue, was to stay on her good side so that she would not rat him out and to keep reminding her of staying with their supposed script!

 

[Alethea Dice]

HE paid for the motel:

It was not that he even wined her or dined her — during their two-month courtship, he took her to the movies once, to Winners and sprung for a night at a Super 8 motel.

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/ToriStafford/2012/03/14/19504061.html

Here are some tweets from March 14th regarding the motel stay.

London Free Press@RaffertyLFPReply Court sees McClintic's bank record from early 2009 - includes debit entry for pizza place they first met and Super 8 motel

.James Armstrong@jamesarmstrong7Reply McClintic laughed a little bit when crown points out highlight on debit history.

London Free Press@RaffertyLFPReply Court see photo of McClintic -she says it was taken during their night at Super 8 motelk

Cynthia Mulligan@CityCynthiaReply #rafferty - now looking at photos of McClintic on bed at Super 8 motel, night she spend with Rafferty, she's wearing his shirt, looks happy

According to this, she paid for the room and the pictures were taken during that stay at the Super 8 motel. Not too sure of the relevance of whether she was exerting herself or swimming.:blushing:

A case of bad reporting, I guess. I wonder which reporter got it right?

 

[matou]

The term "pillow pal" comes to mind when I think of what MR thought of TLM, I do not believe that he once considered TLM his GF. The video at the movie theatre where TLM is trying to get close and cozy up to him, he more or less pushes her away. This was probably the most attention that anyone has ever paid her, she hit the jackpot - he had a car, a supposed job, designer clothes, a life (as she called it) she fell head over heals for him. I believe that MR had a plan in his head, to find an uneducated, druggie female who he could easily manipulate to fulfill his fantasy of raping a child. Hook, line and sinker....he accomplished it!!!!! Ending this so called relationship was easy for him, he stated that they shouldnt be seen together or contact each other shortly after the crime. (Hence the reason why he left the hair dye by the payphone and not deliver it to her) The only reason IMO why he continued contact with her was after she was arrested on another issue, was to stay on her good side so that she would not rat him out and to keep reminder her of staying with their supposed script!

Excellent post! :goodpost:

 

[matou]

I didn't see a debit transaction on the photographic debit card exhibit for the Super8 Motel. Anyone?

 

[nonfictionrocks]

12:31pm RaffertyLFP: Court sees McClintic's bank record from early 2009 - includes debit entry for pizza place they first met and Super 8 motel [via Twitter]

I can't seem to find any footage or photographs of TLM and MTR seen entering the Super 8 motel as mentioned here either (and various other tweet providers):

12:35pm RaffertyLFP: Court sees video of Rafferty and McClintic she can't identify location seems to be motel [via Twitter]

Maybe this got misplaced with the banking transaction record too when they released the March 14th evidence to the media. :waitasec:

 

[daisy.faithfull]

A case of bad reporting, I guess. I wonder which reporter got it right?

I knew I had seen that somewhere! Muchas gracias!

Well, here is the bank record. It does not show the Super 8 but it only shows transactions between 2.3 to 2.5.09.