jury is out until Wednesday 21 March: general discussion thread

[nonfictionrocks]

<modsnip>

I don't know who said it was the movie theatre. SOme think it is Super 8.

JMO If you watch this link, prior to TLM and MR approaching the counter, someone hands money to the clerk and the clerk provides something that looks like a ticket. To me this looks like a movie theatre, not a motel. TLM and MR seem to be looking at the movies that are playing in the book that was handed to them. JMO

http://en.video.canoe.tv/archive/so...-and-mcclintic-on-a-date/1508246391001/page/9

And pic#2 in this link, the front door to the super 8 has only one set of double doors. The movie theatre? doors in the video have 2 sets of double doors and a single door from the view of the camera. Therefore, it was not this particular super 8 motel.

http://www.am980.ca/Other/McClintic.pdf

Nice catch about the doors FF. Anyone know how big that theatre is and how many screens they have?


ETA, the quote in this link is a bit broken so I am not sure who I should be thanking for the nice catch about the doors.

 

[dilbert]

I don't know who said it was the movie theatre. SOme think it is Super 8.

JMO If you watch this link, prior to TLM and MR approaching the counter, someone hands money to the clerk and the clerk provides something that looks like a ticket. To me this looks like a movie theatre, not a motel. TLM and MR seem to be looking at the movies that are playing in the book that was handed to them. JMO

http://en.video.canoe.tv/archive/so...-and-mcclintic-on-a-date/1508246391001/page/9

It was me that said it was the movie theater, and it IS the movie theater, it's called Gallery Cinemas and is on Perry St. Years ago (before the movie theater was built there it used to be the local hockey arena. )

There is evidence that hasn't been released to the media, such as the Super 8 video and the video of TLM going IN to Home Depot in Guelph. Your guess is as good as mine as to why those haven't been released.

 

[dilbert]

Nice catch about the doors FF. Anyone know how big that theatre is and how many screens they have?


ETA, the quote in this link is a bit broken so I am not sure who I should be thanking for the nice catch about the doors.

I haven't been inside in a while but I think there's 6 screens. Here's some pics of the inside.

http://www.gallerycinemas.com/

 

[dilbert]

It's The Gallery Cinemas in Woodstock. Can't remember who mentioned it (Dilbert? I have a feeling he's local). It TLM didn't recognize the location, it's probably because of the camera angle. There's only one movie theatre in Woodstock now. http://gallerycinemas.com/

She is local

 

[Tugela]

<modsnip>. For what reason do you think he would go to Guelph and Mount Forest with an 8 year old who was snatched off the street in his car? TIA

I don't have an opinion until I see evidence that he actually did those things. Was HE in the car? Was Tori in the car? We don't know that, beyond what TLM claims. Can you be sure that Tori died when TLM says, and not days later?

I think it is strange that supposedly both of them did this but so far all the evidence implicates only her directly. She is clearly not all there, so how you can be sure that this wasn't all some fantasy that she concocted, perhaps to get his attention, or to punish him, who knows. That certainly seems like a real possibility, so, we will have to see what evidence the state has to show that that was not the case.

It is still early.

 

[nonfictionrocks]

She is local

I don't go see a movie often and when I do I usually know what show I am going to watch. I have never seen a cashier provide a booklet for the movies playing, aren't there big posters outside advertising what is playing or all over the foyer of this cinema complex. MTR and TLM's behaviour is really odd IMO. He looks to be distancing himself from her when others are around. I have to agree with the poster who said somewhere up thread they were picking out a theatre to have sex in and combining that with the daylight outside, IMO this would not be considered a real date. I bet it wasn't even on a Friday, Saturday or even Sunday. Maybe a half price Tuesday afternoon matinee is more likely.

 

[matou]

I don't have an opinion until I see evidence that he actually did those things. Was HE in the car? Was Tori in the car? We don't know that, beyond what TLM claims. Can you be sure that Tori died when TLM says, and not days later?

I think it is strange that supposedly both of them did this but so far all the evidence implicates only her directly. She is clearly not all there, so how you can be sure that this wasn't all some fantasy that she concocted, perhaps to get his attention, or to punish him, who knows. That certainly seems like a real possibility, so, we will have to see what evidence the state has to show that that was not the case.

It is still early.

There is someone driving the car in all of the videos and it isn't her. I have posted many media files and links in the thread at the top of the forum, you should watch them and see that TLM is clearly not the one driving. JMO

 

[dilbert]

I don't go see a movie often and when I do I usually know what show I am going to watch. I have never seen a cashier provide a booklet for the movies playing, aren't there big posters outside advertising what is playing or all over the foyer of this cinema complex. MTR and TLM's behaviour is really odd IMO. He looks to be distancing himself from her when others are around. I have to agree with the poster who said somewhere up thread they were picking out a theatre to have sex in and combining that with the daylight outside, IMO this would not be considered a real date. I bet it wasn't even on a Friday, Saturday or even Sunday. Maybe a half price Tuesday afternoon matinee is more likely.

I don't go very often anymore either, but when I do I usually go to London because the kids at the Woodstock theater are always screwing up the movies - either there's no sound or it's so loud it blows your eardrums out, or the movie is playing half on the screen and half on the ceiling. No joke.
Also, I am SO glad I was never one to sit in the seats at the very back. YUCK!

I agree with your theory, doubt it was a date at all and more a booty call in exchange for Oxy.

 

[nonfictionrocks]

I don't have an opinion until I see evidence that he actually did those things. Was HE in the car? Was Tori in the car? We don't know that, beyond what TLM claims. Can you be sure that Tori died when TLM says, and not days later?

I think it is strange that supposedly both of them did this but so far all the evidence implicates only her directly. She is clearly not all there, so how you can be sure that this wasn't all some fantasy that she concocted, perhaps to get his attention, or to punish him, who knows. That certainly seems like a real possibility, so, we will have to see what evidence the state has to show that that was not the case.

It is still early.

I have a new theory of what could have happened IMO. What if TLM took Tori from the school for revenge for an unpaid drug debt and ran into MTR pn her way to her house with Tori. He wanted more drugs from her so they went back to her place and CM was all out or told him to get lost.

What if they left Tori with Carol and headed out to Guelph to check out his connection BA out there. They could have stopped at HD because MTR may have said he doesn't like "hooking up" with TLM at her place because of her mother and the conditions she is living in. Perhaps she suggested stopping to pick up a few things to make some repairs to her humble abode.

They headed out to MF, had sex there and then headed back to Woodstock. Maybe he had her help clean out his car because he had a hotter date for the upcoming weekend but when they arrived back to her town her blew her off, saying he had other things to do and didn't know when and if he would see her again.

Tori would still be will Carol and TLM arrived home just a wee tad upset. Carol probably has a bunch of friends willing to give her a lift or lend her a car in exchange for...there are several things you can fill in the gaps here with...and Carol helped murder the girl and then dropped her in the exact place TLM was in with MTR the night before.

There is no exact time of death and if TLM was ticked about money being owed to her (or her mother), I can easily see her being "mildly vindictive" and protecting her mother's interests. JMO here, thinking "outside" the box.

 

[Tugela]

There is someone driving the car in all of the videos and it isn't her. I have posted many media files and links in the thread at the top of the forum, you should watch them and see that TLM is clearly not the one driving. JMO

You dont know that it is him though, the video doesnt show the driver. You also don't know that Tori was in the car at that point, the video doesn't show that either.

How can you exclude the possibility that she stashed Tori somewhere, then got him to take her shopping? Even if he was driving the car it doesn't mean that he must therefore be involved.

Do we know that was the car used in the actual abduction? Or was it just used later?

These are the things that the prosecution is going to have to show. Perhaps later they will introduce definitive evidence linking Rafferty to the killing, and they can use the video to fill in the gaps, but so far we haven't seen anything like that and the video is purely speculative.

The only thing the video shows for sure is her buying whatever.

 

[daisy.faithfull]

This is the 1st I have heard that there is video of the Super 8 check in???

-I have seen evidence pics of TLM at the Super 8
-I have seen raw video of TLM and MR at the desk (which looks like they are choosing what movie to have sex at.

I think somone may have assumed it was the super 8 that they were checking into, but it was the theatre.

I thought that it was the Super 8 because I have never been to a movie theater where you go to a counter to buy the tickets. The only ones that I have ever been to have been the kind with the people behind the glass that give you your ticket through a slot at the counter.

 

[dilbert]

I have a new theory of what could have happened IMO. What if TLM took Tori from the school for revenge for an unpaid drug debt and ran into MTR pn her way to her house with Tori. He wanted more drugs from her so they went back to her place and CM was all out or told him to get lost.

What if they left Tori with Carol and headed out to Guelph to check out his connection BA out there. They could have stopped at HD because MTR may have said he doesn't like "hooking up" with TLM at her place because of her mother and the conditions she is living in. Perhaps she suggested stopping to pick up a few things to make some repairs to her humble abode.

They headed out to MF, had sex there and then headed back to Woodstock. Maybe he had her help clean out his car because he had a hotter date for the upcoming weekend but when they arrived back to her town her blew her off, saying he had other things to do and didn't know when and if he would see her again.

Tori would still be will Carol and TLM arrived home just a wee tad upset. Carol probably has a bunch of friends willing to give her a lift or lend her a car in exchange for...there are several things you can fill in the gaps here with...and Carol helped murder the girl and then dropped her in the exact place TLM was in with MTR the night before.

There is no exact time of death and if TLM was ticked about money being owed to her (or her mother), I can easily see her being "mildly vindictive" and protecting her mother's interests. JMO here, thinking "outside" the box.

Interesting theory, one point, TLM would need more than a hammer and garbage bags to clean up that dump she lived in.
:moo::moo::moo::moo::moo:

 

[antiquegirl]

Interesting theory, one point, TLM would need more than a hammer and garbage bags to clean up that dump she lived in.
:moo::moo::moo::moo::moo:

Those garbage bags niggle and niggle at my brain. If both of them carried poor Tori's remains holding those bags, then both of their fingerprints should be on them. I just don't see them completely wiping them off, nor do I think that the rain could eradicate them all, especially since they were at least partially covered by rocks. Yet, fingerprints have not been mentioned in the Crown's opening statements. Is this one of the pieces of evidence that he's holding back? If both TLM's and MTR's prints were found on those bags, there's just no explaining that away and his goose is cooked. We'll see how that plays out.

JMO

 

[swedie]

:angel:JUSTICE FOR VICTORIA!!:angel:

The hope of a secure and livable world lies with disciplined nonconformists who are dedicated to justice, peace and brotherhood.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

An innocent, tiny, eight year old girl was loving, naive and trusting enough, to take the hand of a sinister teenager, who, on a dare of a sexual predator, lead her away to what would become the nightmare of many people who feared for Tori's safety. This sexual predator a male, 20 years Tori's senior tortured and brutalized Tori with his evil acts of multiple sexual assaults. When her poor, precious, little body could no longer fight off the predator, the pain and anguish he forced upon her, and his sexual demons were momentarily quenched, he threw Tori's broken body from the bloodstained back seat of his car. Tori's motionless bloodied body, lying on the snowy, cold ground, in nothing but a shirt, failed to thrive. It wasn't bad enough she was broken beyond repair, the abductor and the sexual deviant continued on their ill rampage of wickedness to destroy what little life Tori's tiny body had left. Oh how merciful in their sick minds they were, to place a garbage bag over Tori's head to protect her from the ghastly vision they bestowed upon her next. After they were somewhat satisfied with their repugnant doings, they shoved Tori's badly broken, beaten and lifeless body into garbage bags to conceal the atrocious, sickening sight they had created of this once beautiful, blonde haired, blue eyed child. These two proceeded to further engage in their evil plan, by concealing her petite lifeless body from the world, by tossing her remains under a group of pine trees, seeming to take great satisfaction in giving her a morbid burial under a pile of rocks.

Little did they know their every moved was being watched from above, and in due time they will suffer for who they have taken from so many people who cherished and adored Tori. So many people have since learnt of Tori's demise over the last (just short of) three years, and so many want justice for her; wanting justice so badly it hurts. I have total faith in all the people who have worked and are working so diligently to bring justice in honour of Tori. If the best and only way to get justice for her untimely and inhumane death, is by imprisonment of the two responsible for taking Tori's life in such a heinous way, so be it. It will have to suffice. Who knows what waits for them behind those iron bars.

For those who believe in the higher powers above, Karma and justice, please remember, although Tori's body fail to survive the brutalities inflicted upon her by these two barbaric people, her soul escaped unscathed. May she send down the Angels of Karma to wreck havoc upon the evil, like minded individuals who took her life.

Just my honest opinion and praying for Karma and the higher powers from above.

FYI: Victoria means "victory" in Latin. Victoria was the Roman goddess of victory.

Justice will come little Angel.
Your soul is free.

 

[~n/t~]

Victoria Stafford murder trial resumes today with legal arguments

The jury will not be in the room as the judge hears arguments from the lawyers at the first-degree murder trial of Michael Rafferty.

McClintic is expected to return to the stand Wednesday.

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/ca...mes-today-with-legal-arguments-143443836.html

 

[SoSueMe]

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Websleuths Co-Owner

 

[myzzy]

Another day closer to some closure for Tori's Family and friends.


One problem I have for this case so far is, to my understanding and from all my readings ( Unless im loosing my mind which is easy ) we the public have not read what MR's side, It seems to be mostly He said/ she said from TLM

I do believe he is involved but I have not heard the whole case and there is always a chance, that we the public has it all wrong and a trial is here to hopefully make sure the RIGHT people are conviceted for THEIR crimes and have a FAIR trial.


Just because we have seen videos of the possibility that MRs car is at the school area at the same time.. Have we seen proof that he was in the car that abducted Tori ?

We have heard that Tori was brutally assulted, raped and murdered... Have we any proof at this point that MR was at the crime scene, the one who assulted tori, raped tori or murdered Tori?

We have heard most of TLMs story of what she did that night, and under oath she stated she is the one who murdered Tori and her also state that MR did not kill Tori.. As of yet have we seen the evidence of him ever touching Tori??

there is so much more to come and hearing MR's side is what I am waiting to hear before im ready to convict MR. It is obvious and clear that TLM has some major mental issues to do something like this alone or with MR, and in my opinion she is a pathilogical liar and from experience ( my family ) someone who can lie like her, act like her and see the world as she does, would be capable of implicating MR. ( Doubtful but possible ).. I do want full justice for Tori and want those responsible for ANY KNOWINGLY part leading to Tori that day pay for the rest of their lives.

I guess my bottom line is, MR has yet to tell us anything and before we convict him, lets hear it all

 

[myzzy]

It was said in the opening statements that there is evidence linking MTR to TS and the various places they were said be that evening. One of the things is MTR's blood mixed with TS's.... tell me, if he was not there how is there blood with DNA from both MTR & TS mixed together.

I understand not wanting to judge until all evidence has been presented, but the crown has clearly stated they have evidence to prove his involvement.

I really don't care who was driving the car, who initially took Tori, who's idea it was to but the hammer and garbage bags or what car was used in the abduction (which I am going on record saying I believe it was MTR's, why else get rid of your back seat?? Oh and also the fact that Tori's blood was found in his car)!!!! The fact is they did this together, they are both responsible and should both be punished accordingly.

<modsnip>

BBM - If they do have the evidence then MR will rightfully so be found guilty i believe. His life in my opinion should not be spared. I have no compassion for someone who could do something like this.

I guess im leaving a open mind for MR because of his plea to the crown, If his attorneys and MR are pleading not guilty knowing the evidence, and TLMs story, why go forward with a trial knwoing the outcome and getting the media coverage portraying him as a child molester and killer ( which i have heard is not something you want to be known as in prison especially for a young male ) if he had ANY part of Tori's abduction/murder.

 

[Wondergirl]

You dont know that it is him though, the video doesnt show the driver. You also don't know that Tori was in the car at that point, the video doesn't show that either.

How can you exclude the possibility that she stashed Tori somewhere, then got him to take her shopping? Even if he was driving the car it doesn't mean that he must therefore be involved.

Do we know that was the car used in the actual abduction? Or was it just used later?

These are the things that the prosecution is going to have to show. Perhaps later they will introduce definitive evidence linking Rafferty to the killing, and they can use the video to fill in the gaps, but so far we haven't seen anything like that and the video is purely speculative.

The only thing the video shows for sure is her buying whatever.

According to the Crown, Victoria Stafford's DNA and Blood was found in Michael Rafferty's Car.

The Crown has said they have evidence linking Rafferty to Victoria.

JMO

 

[Wondergirl]

BBM - If they do have the evidence then MR will rightfully so be found guilty i believe. His life in my opinion should not be spared. I have no compassion for someone who could do something like this.

I guess im leaving a open mind for MR because of his plea to the crown, If his attorneys and MR are pleading not guilty knowing the evidence, and TLMs story, why go forward with a trial knwoing the outcome and getting the media coverage portraying him as a child molester and killer ( which i have heard is not something you want to be known as in prison especially for a young male ) if he had ANY part of Tori's abduction/murder.

BBM: Perhaps because he has nothing to lose, has no conscience, and is a coward?

JMO