jury is out until Wednesday 21 March: general discussion thread

[antiquegirl]

BBM - If they do have the evidence then MR will rightfully so be found guilty i believe. His life in my opinion should not be spared. I have no compassion for someone who could do something like this.

I guess im leaving a open mind for MR because of his plea to the crown, If his attorneys and MR are pleading not guilty knowing the evidence, and TLMs story, why go forward with a trial knwoing the outcome and getting the media coverage portraying him as a child molester and killer ( which i have heard is not something you want to be known as in prison especially for a young male ) if he had ANY part of Tori's abduction/murder.

There's no doubt in my mind that all of us here want the same thing: justice. All I've ever wanted is a fair examination of the evidence and to hear everything that transpired with proof to back it up. I've refused to come to any conclusions until each and every fact is presented and examined by both the prosecution and the defence. Even then, the verdict is up to the jury.

Whatever conclusions the jury arrives at I will accept, as I have faith in the Canadian justice system. Those responsible for this terrible crime should be punished and prevented from doing it again. Surely that's something we can all agree on.

JMO

 

[ChaChaCha]

Respectfully asking about when you say she didn't seem like the type he would attach himself to as "boyfriend material", that doesn't make sense unless you personally know MR and TLM. How can anyone assume what someone is like even after reading all the information out there about the two of them, and determine who suits who for dating material? IMHO they obviously had something in common to be able to do what they did to Tori. MR and TLM both suffer from psychosis which allowed them to abduct, sexually assault and murder an innocent child.

From what we have learnt about both we found MR to be the sexual deviant one, with multiply girlfriends all at one time it seems. There has been no mention of TLM being a sexual deviant or any suggestion she even had other boyfriends. (I do believe she stated other guys never spoke nice to her, doesn't mean they were boyfriends though). MR was the mooch who took advantage of his own mother and friends, the one who couldn't hold down a job even if his life depended upon it. MR was someone who was known to have a temper and could also readily turn on the tears, as stated by many who knew him. He stole from at least one woman who trusted him and tried to provide a loving relationship. He couldn't even make that work. He put on a great front of pretending to "love children" (barf), JMO, probably to turn suspicion away from his morbid thoughts about how he really felt about children. This was more than likely a cover up in order to get closer to innocent little children. I pray no one ever trusted MR and left him alone with their children. lease:

So how does this information paint him an unlikely boyfriend for a young, pretty, sexually mature woman who had an addiction to drugs which he also seemed to enjoy? In my eyes he is certainly no handsome prince charming to look at, that's for sure. Must have been the designer clothes, the lies and smooth talking he did to attract women. All my honest opinion.:moo:

Sorry ... my wording was backwards it seems. TLM was likely not "girlfriend material" to MR, as it seems (so far as girlfriends went) he preferred women in their twenties, perhaps with a child, making their own money and with their own places to live ... much easier to "move on in". Not to say he didn't mind flings here and there, but to actually "date" TLM I dont think so ... she is a self-admitted junkie with little or nothing going for her except her connections. This could possibly be evidenced by the few videos and/or stills of them together out in public - he doesn't appear to be pulling her close, holding her hand or displaying other signs of affection. Perhaps her youth was attractive to him initially, but for a long term relationshp she wouldn't fit his bill. Could be too that my definition of "boyfriend" and "girlfriend" includes a level of exclusivity and commitment that doesn't appear on MR's part during the two months they knew each other.

While I agree with the Crown's charge against MR, and I am concerned that TLM did not completely disclose her participation in the Agreed Statement of Facts presented at her trial, I am still waiting for the remainder of the evidence and arguments to be presented in MR's trial. TLM does not appear at times to be a credible witness ... although some of the statements in her testimony have the ring of truth to them.

I wonder does anybody know whether a guilty verdict in a Murder One case carry an automatic sentence of life with no parole for 25 years? Is there the possibility of being found guilty and the judge sentencing the defendent to less time, including time served? Is this the goal of the defence team?

 

[antiquegirl]

Sorry ... my wording was backwards it seems. TLM was likely not "girlfriend material" to MR, as it seems (so far as girlfriends went) he preferred women in their twenties, perhaps with a child, making their own money and with their own places to live ... much easier to "move on in". Not to say he didn't mind flings here and there, but to actually "date" TLM I dont think so ... she is a self-admitted junkie with little or nothing going for her except her connections. This could possibly be evidenced by the few videos and/or stills of them together out in public - he doesn't appear to be pulling her close, holding her hand or displaying other signs of affection. Perhaps her youth was attractive to him initially, but for a long term relationshp she wouldn't fit his bill. Could be too that my definition of "boyfriend" and "girlfriend" includes a level of exclusivity and commitment that doesn't appear on MR's part during the two months they knew each other.

While I agree with the Crown's charge against MR, and I am concerned that TLM did not completely disclose her participation in the Agreed Statement of Facts presented at her trial, I am still waiting for the remainder of the evidence and arguments to be presented in MR's trial. TLM does not appear at times to be a credible witness ... although some of the statements in her testimony have the ring of truth to them.

I wonder does anybody know whether a guilty verdict in a Murder One case carry an automatic sentence of life with no parole for 25 years? Is there the possibility of being found guilty and the judge sentencing the defendent to less time, including time served? Is this the goal of the defence team?

I don't know the answer to that, but ever since following this case, I've been totally stumped by the Cecilia Zhang outcome. Her kidnapper and killer was originally charged and tried for 1st degree murder - it was premeditated, he took her from her own bedroom, and claimed she suffocated accidentally when he covered her mouth and nose. Her poor little body was found in some woods.

Somehow, that charge got reduced to 2nd degree murder and that's what he was convicted of. He got 15 years instead of life. I can't figure out why. According to the law as we know it, no matter how the victim of a kidnapping dies (whether accidentally or by murder), it's a 1st degree charge.
Add this to what happened with KH (and heaven knows who else!) and I'm wondering if the law can be twisted at will. Very strange.

JMO

 

[Oldsoul2]

Where's todays thread for the trial?

 

[matou]

Where's todays thread for the trial?

The trial with jury starts resumes again tomorrow and McClintic is expected to be cross examined the the defense. xo

 

[maxfactor]

BBM: Perhaps because he has nothing to lose, has no conscience, and is a coward?

JMO

Very true IMO, also I believe that he went back and collected a lot of the evidence after TLM was picked up by LE. I think he really thinks he will get away with it.

 

[Oldsoul2]

The trial with jury starts resumes again tomorrow and McClintic is expected to be cross examined the the defense. xo

So we'll finally know what direction their taking the defense strategy, from the looks of it, it seems we're going to hear a Jose Baez classic

 

[nobodyzgirl]

So we'll finally know what direction their taking the defense strategy, from the looks of it, it seems we're going to hear a Jose Baez classic

Derstine has way more class and professionalism than Baez. Derstine was called to the Bar in 1993 and I'm willing to bet he passed the bar the first time around, unlike Baez. He has a lot of experience behind him. His bio on their firm website mentions he is a regular instructor in trial advocacy seminars and recently held a seminar on cross-examination techniques for the OBA.

Personally, I'm looking forward to hearing his cross tomorrow. This is the first witness on the stand that has actually started to link MR to the crimes. My opinion is that his cross will be nothing like Baez, it will be focussed and direct.

 

[~n/t~]

He's going to have to tread lightly with this witness. She's taken responsibility for the murder. If he goes on the attack, she may turn around and bite back. Can't trust rabid pit bulls! :jail:

:moo:

 

[kmclaren]

I don't know the answer to that, but ever since following this case, I've been totally stumped by the Cecilia Zhang outcome. Her kidnapper and killer was originally charged and tried for 1st degree murder - it was premeditated, he took her from her own bedroom, and claimed she suffocated accidentally when he covered her mouth and nose. Her poor little body was found in some woods.

Somehow, that charge got reduced to 2nd degree murder and that's what he was convicted of. He got 15 years instead of life. I can't figure out why. According to the law as we know it, no matter how the victim of a kidnapping dies (whether accidentally or by murder), it's a 1st degree charge.
Add this to what happened with KH (and heaven knows who else!) and I'm wondering if the law can be twisted at will. Very strange.

JMO

Cecilia's murderer actually did get life with the 2nd degree charge, only difference being he is eligible for parole after 15 years instead of 25. Even if/when he gets out, he will be deported back to China where he will likely go to trial and be sentenced again (possibly facing execution)...

 

[Hello_Kitty]

Thank you again FF. This is the footage of them at the movie theatre. Was this the video they showed just after showing the bank transaction of the motel and the pictures of the Super 8 but before the pictures of TLM on the bed in the motel? The sequence does not make any sense to me. Evidence entered in as banking statement, wide shot still of motel, video at the movie theatre and then back to the motel again? Did they check into the motel and then go out to a movie. The theatre video looks to be during the day judging by the daylight just outside the doors. Was it the Crown who said it was video from the movie theatre or did someone here say it was? So many questions, sorry

The video on the LFP site says it is the movie theater.

 

[antiquegirl]

Cecilia's murderer actually did get life with the 2nd degree charge, only difference being he is eligible for parole after 15 years instead of 25. Even if/when he gets out, he will be deported back to China where he will likely go to trial and be sentenced again (possibly facing execution)...

Thanks! Okay, but on what grounds did the charge get reduced from 1st Degree to 2nd? How did they mess with an existing law? Even if he made a deal in return for revealing the location of Cecilia's remains, I don't understand how something clearly stated in the law books can be altered without a lengthy legislative decision at the Federal level.

 

[Alethea Dice]

Thanks! Okay, but on what grounds did the charge get reduced from 1st Degree to 2nd? How did they mess with an existing law? Even if he made a deal in return for revealing the location of Cecilia's remains, I don't understand how something clearly stated in the law books can be altered without a lengthy legislative decision at the Federal level.

I didn't follow that trial, but according to this article, it looks like they agreed to the guilty plea to a lesser charge because they didn't have enough evidence to be sure of a conviction on the 1st degree charge. 2nd Degree is better than walking.

http://http://www.cancrime.com/2009/04/15/exclusive-cecilia-zhang-killer-moved-closer-to-home/

Police had fingerprints at the Zhang house that tied Chen to the abduction, but without forensic evidence linking him to her death, it was a feeble case. Prosecutors accepted Chen’s guilty plea to second-degree murder, knowing that a conviction wasn’t certain.

 

[kmclaren]

Thanks! Okay, but on what grounds did the charge get reduced from 1st Degree to 2nd? How did they mess with an existing law? Even if he made a deal in return for revealing the location of Cecilia's remains, I don't understand how something clearly stated in the law books can be altered without a lengthy legislative decision at the Federal level.

Now that, I don't know about! From what I can remember, in his twisted mind if he took Cecilia and got ransom he could pay someone to marry him then be able to stay in Canada. Maybe something like he didn't have intent to kill her? I don't think given MR's charges and the brutality of Tori's death, they'd be able to get it down to 2nd degree.

 

[ChaChaCha]

I didn't follow that trial, but according to this article, it looks like they agreed to the guilty plea to a lesser charge because they didn't have enough evidence to be sure of a conviction on the 1st degree charge. 2nd Degree is better than walking.

http://http://www.cancrime.com/2009/04/15/exclusive-cecilia-zhang-killer-moved-closer-to-home/

Very interesting ... makes me wonder if this tactic is one that MR's defence team initially thought to use - relying on minimal forensic evidence in order to have the charge reduced to second degree? Which hasn't happened, so they are carrying on as planned. It would appear that the Crown feels that it has sufficient evidence for a conviction of 1st Degree - and went directly to trial without a preliminary hearing.

Also interesting that the Zhang murder also involved kidnapping of a minor, but "extenuating circumstances" i.e. accidental death was enough to barter the charge down to 2nd degree.

As for Zhang's murderer, I cannot imagine that he would relish the thought of being deported and re-convicted in his homeland, but it was in the government's interest as well to not house him for the additionnal years.

JMO

 

[nobodyzgirl]

Thanks! Okay, but on what grounds did the charge get reduced from 1st Degree to 2nd? How did they mess with an existing law? Even if he made a deal in return for revealing the location of Cecilia's remains, I don't understand how something clearly stated in the law books can be altered without a lengthy legislative decision at the Federal level.

AG, here is a link to the Agreed Statement of Facts for the Cecilia Zhang case. Start at page 17 (#84), which is the Position of the Prosecution to accept the 2nd degree plea and their decision to do so, hopefully it will help you understand why it happened. HTH.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/ceciliazhang/gfx/zhangstatementfact.pdf

 

[crazyladi]

Thanks! Okay, but on what grounds did the charge get reduced from 1st Degree to 2nd? How did they mess with an existing law? Even if he made a deal in return for revealing the location of Cecilia's remains, I don't understand how something clearly stated in the law books can be altered without a lengthy legislative decision at the Federal level.

I thought that it got reduced because he initially took her to get a ransom for gambling or a gambling debt and he accidently suffocated her making it not premeditated. Not 100% certain though.

 

[antiquegirl]

Now that, I don't know about! From what I can remember, in his twisted mind if he took Cecilia and got ransom he could pay someone to marry him then be able to stay in Canada. Maybe something like he didn't have intent to kill her? I don't think given MR's charges and the brutality of Tori's death, they'd be able to get it down to 2nd degree.

Thank you, but Alethea explains it. The reduction of the charge was about insufficient evidence, not about the death being accidental. Intent is not a criteria in a first degree charge when the death occurs during, or as a result of, kidnapping.

First degree murder

planned and deliberate
contracted
committed against an identified peace officer
while committing or attempting to commit hijacking an aircraft
while committing or attempting to commit sexual assault
while committing or attempting to commit sexual assault with a weapon
while committing or attempting to commit aggravated sexual assault
while committing or attempting to commit kidnapping and forcible confinement
hostage taking
while committing criminal harassment
committed during terrorist activity
while using explosives in association with a criminal organization
while committing intimidation.

I wasn't implying that this might happen with MTR's charges, merely wondering about Cecilia Zhang's. I followed that case in the papers closely because I had once been inside the house she was abducted from (before they moved there).

Here is something I didn't know.

"An offender convicted of 1st or 2nd degree murder is ineligible to be declared a dangerous offender."

[ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_%28Canadian_law%29[/ame]

JMO

 

[Hello_Kitty]

BBM - If they do have the evidence then MR will rightfully so be found guilty i believe. His life in my opinion should not be spared. I have no compassion for someone who could do something like this.

I guess im leaving a open mind for MR because of his plea to the crown, If his attorneys and MR are pleading not guilty knowing the evidence, and TLMs story, why go forward with a trial knwoing the outcome and getting the media coverage portraying him as a child molester and killer ( which i have heard is not something you want to be known as in prison especially for a young male ) if he had ANY part of Tori's abduction/murder.

Everyone has the right to plead not guilty (it isn't up to his lawyer to decide for his client). If MR had not pleaded anything, the judge would have entered a plea of not guilty I believe.

 

[Hello_Kitty]

I don't know the answer to that, but ever since following this case, I've been totally stumped by the Cecilia Zhang outcome. Her kidnapper and killer was originally charged and tried for 1st degree murder - it was premeditated, he took her from her own bedroom, and claimed she suffocated accidentally when he covered her mouth and nose. Her poor little body was found in some woods.

Somehow, that charge got reduced to 2nd degree murder and that's what he was convicted of. He got 15 years instead of life. I can't figure out why. According to the law as we know it, no matter how the victim of a kidnapping dies (whether accidentally or by murder), it's a 1st degree charge.
Add this to what happened with KH (and heaven knows who else!) and I'm wondering if the law can be twisted at will. Very strange.

JMO

Ag, this might be the explanation, he took her from her bedroom and the intent was to sexually abuse her (but not kill her) which he didn't because he panicked and held his hand to her nose and mouth and suffocated her.

And I'm not saying it happened this way, but maybe that's how his lawyers presented it and that's why he got only 2nd degree.