jury is out until Wednesday 21 March: general discussion thread

[margaret_diane]

I agree that it seemed as if the Crown was trying to discredit TLM today.:moo:

I guess they probably have enough of their own evidence that they don't need her mixed up testimony. They have their own theory and hopefully evidence. The Crown probably wants to pin the actual murder act on Rafferty. MOO MOO MOO:moo:

This makes me wonder again, if she is following through in defending him like she promised.:moo::jail:

If the Crown had enough without her and knew she lacked credibility I doubt they would have put her on the stand. JMO

 

[paris_paris]

When TLM said MR did it, she said she had her back turned most of the time, but knew he kicked her and hit her with the hammer.

When she said she did it herself, she had all the details. If MR did it, she wouldn't know Tori was hit with a hammer 3 times. (Not like she'd ask him after how many times it was).

If the evidence shows Tori was hit 3 times, that would show that TLM did in fact do it.

Still doesn't matter regardless, but I think TLM did it.

 

[nonfictionrocks]

If the Crown had enough without her and knew she lacked credibility I doubt they would have put her on the stand. JMO

Without her initial confession implicating him, wouldn't everything they collected after that have to be thrown out as well?

 

[flipflop]

And this BA woman? Still wondering....

In the evidence pics, I believe the house where MR and TLM stopped to purchase drugs is shown.

http://www.am980.ca/Other/McClintic.pdf pic 28

 

[daisy.faithfull]

When TLM said MR did it, she said she had her back turned most of the time, but knew he kicked her and hit her with the hammer.

When she said she did it herself, she had all the details. If MR did it, she wouldn't know Tori was hit with a hammer 3 times. (Not like she'd ask him after how many times it was).

If the evidence shows Tori was hit 3 times, that would show that TLM did in fact do it.

Still doesn't matter regardless, but I think TLM did it.

I'm still leaning towards it being TLM that killed Tori, even after today's testimony.

Is it possible that forensic evidence could show which direction the blows likely came from?

 

[daisy.faithfull]

Without her initial confession implicating him, wouldn't everything they collected after that have to be thrown out as well?

Do you mean evidence wise?

Eta: I guess you're meaning statement? The word collected had me thinking evidence.

 

[flipflop]

And this BA woman? Still wondering....

We will all get more insight who this BA woman is....

@AM980_Court is that guy/girl who sold the perks, going to take the stand to verify that did in deed happen. That would put mike in the car

the Crown indicated during its opening statement this individual would be taking the stand as a witness at some point.

 

[flipflop]

AM980@ McClintic points out herself getting out of the car in the parking lot. She returns to the car with a bag seven minutes later.

I find it odd that this was not released for us to see, but the video of her leaving is. I wonder if more occupants of the car are visible in the "getting out of the car" video.

 

[antiquegirl]

There is one claim by TLM that keeps playing over and over in my mind:

"I knew it. I knew you were all talk and no action."

Adrian Morrow‏@AdrianMorrow

McClintic says she asked him "do what?" and he replied "I knew it. I knew you were all talk and no action." #ToriStafford

What talk? What had she said before? It made me wonder why MR would say this to her. Would it be because it was TLM herself and not MTR who came up with the abduction plan? Is it because he brought it up before and she agreed to do it? This doesn’t sound like something he would say to her if she had refused his suggestion, as she claims. It sounds a lot to me like she must have either thought of it herself, or at least agreed to do it.

And that further makes me wonder if we’ll be seeing any testimony from psychiatrists who examined TLM since her confession. There is a psychological mechanism where people will project their own thoughts, emotions, etc. onto another person. Could this be carried further into projecting one’s actions (i.e. sexual assault) onto someone else?

Interesting explanation here:

“Psychological projection or projection bias is a psychological defense mechanism where a person subconsciously denies his or her own attributes, thoughts, and emotions, which are then ascribed to the outside world, usually to other people. Thus, projection involves imagining or projecting the belief that others originate those feelings.[1] Projection reduces anxiety by allowing the expression of the unwanted unconscious impulses or desires without letting the conscious mind recognize them.”

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection"]Psychological projection - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

What else could she have attributed to MTR that may have actually been herself? The B&E plan? She was the one with the criminal record for robbery. Doesn't it make sense that this could have been her idea and not his? That she was projecting her own thoughts/words/feelings onto someone else? She was also the one with the previous convictions for assault. Not a big stretch here to imagine that she was projecting.

Just trying to come up with some alternate theories. The upcoming cross-examination and evidence presented by the defence could bring some surprises.

JMO

 

[nonfictionrocks]

Do you mean evidence wise?

Yes, I do but maybe I watch too many legal shows. If her confession was the only lead to MTR and if her initial confession was thrown out, how else otherwise would he be implicated? Why would they target him and start collecting any evidence. Even if she did not confess, all they might have is a suspicious vehicle that drove past the school around 9:00am and then again at 3:00pm and around 3:30pm. All could be expained away by MTR or it could have been another vehicle altogether, the cctv is not all the clear. I guess they could have ask his permission but if he was guilty, he could easily say no (maybe he would turn them down if innocent too). IMO, they need her confession and now her testimony on the stand to even justify getting the ball rolling on him to start checking into his cellphone records and banking transactions. They would never had been able to get a search warrant without cause on any of this, including searching his car if it were not for her statement. All JMO and HTH.

 

[daisy.faithfull]

There is one claim by TLM that keeps playing over and over in my mind:

"I knew it. I knew you were all talk and no action."



What talk? What had she said before? It made me wonder why MR would say this to her. Would it be because it was TLM herself and not MTR who came up with the abduction plan? Is it because he brought it up before and she agreed to do it? This doesn’t sound like something he would say to her if she had refused his suggestion, as she claims. It sounds a lot to me like she must have either thought of it herself, or at least agreed to do it.

And that further makes me wonder if we’ll be seeing any testimony from psychiatrists who examined TLM since her confession. There is a psychological mechanism where people will project their own thoughts, emotions, etc. onto another person. Could this be carried further into projecting one’s actions (i.e. sexual assault) onto someone else?

Interesting explanation here:

“Psychological projection or projection bias is a psychological defense mechanism where a person subconsciously denies his or her own attributes, thoughts, and emotions, which are then ascribed to the outside world, usually to other people. Thus, projection involves imagining or projecting the belief that others originate those feelings.[1] Projection reduces anxiety by allowing the expression of the unwanted unconscious impulses or desires without letting the conscious mind recognize them.”

Psychological projection - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What else could she have attributed to MTR that may have actually been herself? The B&E plan? She was the one with the criminal record for robbery. Doesn't it make sense that this could have been her idea and not his? That she was projecting her own thoughts/words/feelings onto someone else? She was also the one with the previous convictions for assault. Not a big stretch here to imagine that she was projecting.

Just trying to come up with some alternate theories. The upcoming cross-examination and evidence presented by the defence could bring some surprises.

JMO

I think that there are a couple of different explanations for that statement and that scenario is one of them.

I think that when I first heard it I thought they had discussed violent scenarios in the past while fantasizing and he was challenging her to show him how far she would go to:
A) show him she loved him
B) please him
C) show that she was was as "gangsta" and as "down" as she said she was

 

[flipflop]

TLM was in custody 4 days after Tori was abducted. IMO She was interviewed by Det Smyth the first time on May 19th, when she confessed that she was the person on the tape and probably told them at that point (again JMO) Rafferty was with her. She probably wasn't on OxyContin for the interview with Det Smyth but she could have been on another drug to ease her withdrawal. Keep in mind, she was injecting OxyContin and who knows what else, she was a "junkie", she said so herself, and she would have needed medical supervision withdrawing from that particular drug for sure.

AM980:McClintic was on anti depressants, anxiety medications. Her mother was perscribed oxy contin. McClintic would use and sell her drugs.

AM980:In early 2009, McClintic was using drugs regularly. She would inject or pop oxy contin, smoke pot and use other drugs.

AM980:McClintic says she developed a high tolerance for oxy contin. She took as much as she could afford on a daily basis.

 

[daisy.faithfull]

Yes, I do but maybe I watch too many legal shows. If her confession was the only lead to MTR and if her initial confession was thrown out, how else otherwise would he be implicated? Why would they target him and start collecting any evidence. Even if she did not confess, all they might have is a suspicious vehicle that drove past the school around 9:00am and then again at 3:00pm and around 3:30pm. All could be expained away by MTR or it could have been another vehicle altogether, the cctv is not all the clear. I guess they could have ask his permission but if he was guilty, he could easily say no (maybe he would turn them down if innocent too). IMO, they need her confession and now her testimony on the stand to even justify getting the ball rolling on him to start checking into his cellphone records and banking transactions. They would never had been able to get a search warrant without cause on any of this, including searching his car if it were not for her statement. All JMO and HTH.

Well, no you don't watch too many tv shows because I understood what you were asking based on watching them myself. . I :beats: Jack McCoy

I wonder if they would have been able to get the ball rolling though just by investigating TLM? Looking at who visited her, seeing MTR... Looking at her phone records etc.

 

[nonfictionrocks]

There is one claim by TLM that keeps playing over and over in my mind:

"I knew it. I knew you were all talk and no action."



What talk? What had she said before? It made me wonder why MR would say this to her. Would it be because it was TLM herself and not MTR who came up with the abduction plan? Is it because he brought it up before and she agreed to do it? This doesn’t sound like something he would say to her if she had refused his suggestion, as she claims. It sounds a lot to me like she must have either thought of it herself, or at least agreed to do it.

And that further makes me wonder if we’ll be seeing any testimony from psychiatrists who examined TLM since her confession. There is a psychological mechanism where people will project their own thoughts, emotions, etc. onto another person. Could this be carried further into projecting one’s actions (i.e. sexual assault) onto someone else?

Interesting explanation here:

“Psychological projection or projection bias is a psychological defense mechanism where a person subconsciously denies his or her own attributes, thoughts, and emotions, which are then ascribed to the outside world, usually to other people. Thus, projection involves imagining or projecting the belief that others originate those feelings.[1] Projection reduces anxiety by allowing the expression of the unwanted unconscious impulses or desires without letting the conscious mind recognize them.”

Psychological projection - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What else could she have attributed to MTR that may have actually been herself? The B&E plan? She was the one with the criminal record for robbery. Doesn't it make sense that this could have been her idea and not his? That she was projecting her own thoughts/words/feelings onto someone else? She was also the one with the previous convictions for assault. Not a big stretch here to imagine that she was projecting.

Just trying to come up with some alternate theories. The upcoming cross-examination and evidence presented by the defence could bring some surprises.

JMO

Wow, AG. That is one thought provoking post for so late on a Friday night after an especially harrowing week of "testimony".

I am suspicious of the townhouse complex she pointed out right next to the school, remember she could not find the other house located right in Woodstock but provided pretty good detail to a location about 100kms to where Tori was found.

If one was looking to "tie up a single Mom", would they not seek a more isolated location such as RW did. Rafferty had a car, why would he target a populated townhouse complex where people are living practically side by side and on top of each other with paper thin walls? Personally (and of couse JMO) this whole conversation, both sides of it, happened in her head only. She was the one with gangsta aspirations, a very serious drug addiction and who knows WTH else?

 

[swedie]

Ya but she lies through her teeth!!
That isn't my opinion either - that is a proven fact at this point.

Respectfully I do have to say there are too many lies and a lot of truth also coming from her mouth :moo:. It's just my honest opinion MR is the bigger liar by the fact of pleading not guilty. I guess we will have to wait until more evidence comes forward to see who is the bigger liar of the two. For me MR is the murderer no matter who swung the hammer. He was the one who sucked TLM into abducting Tori, he is the one who suggested TLM go into HD and purchase the murder weapon with his own money, more then likely, (his reason for stopping at the ATM before going to HD), he is the one who drove the vehicle to Tori's final destination and he is the one who sexually assaulted her, tossing her motionless, moaning, bloodied body from his car, after he was done his sadistic act. I don't imagine he was none too gentle with Tori as this is what gave him his "turn on". Therefore he probably causing her grave injuries, enough for her to hemorrhage to death, and/or too damaged to become coherent enough to go for help, should she had been left by them at that point in time. This case is so sickening and evil and all I want is for whoever was part of Tori's demise, to pay to the full extent, which would be life in prison. :moo: I must say the Crown is doing a fabulous job already, even without TLM's testimony in showing these two were both responsible. Looking very forward to them bringing forth more damning evidence for a conviction. :moo::twocents::jail:

Injury
Depending on the age and size of the child, and the degree of force used, child sexual abuse may cause internal lacerations and bleeding. In severe cases, damage to internal organs may occur, which, in some cases, may cause death.[63] Herman-Giddens et al. found six certain and six probable cases of death due to child sexual abuse in North Carolina between 1985 and 1994. The victims ranged in age from 2 months to 10 years. Causes of death included trauma to the genitalia or rectum and sexual mutilation.[

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_sexual_abuse"]Child sexual abuse - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

 

[dilbert]

Lord have mercy, Tori also could have died from hypothermia if left in the field and not kicked in the abdomen or hit in the head with a hammer.

The fact remains, she died of blunt force trauma to the head, a pathologist will testify to this, hopefully sooner than later.

MOO

 

[flipflop]

Well, no you don't watch too many tv shows because I understood what you were asking based on watching them myself. . I :beats: Jack McCoy

I wonder if they would have been able to get the ball rolling though just by investigating TLM? Looking at who visited her, seeing MTR... Looking at her phone records etc.

I think it was a good thing that TLM lied about Rafferty, as it got the ball rolling faster. From the numbers stated in the below tweets, chances are many of them implicate MR to the crime anyways. With LE originally investigating TLM, I believe within time LE would have figured him out!!

.AM980: Scoyne says there are 1,100 exhibits that have been seized in this investigation.

AM980: 84 exhibits were sent to the OPP centre of forensic science. Scoyne calls that number "unusually large".

AM980: Rafferty wasn't a suspect in the case until mid-May. He was first questioned because of his relationship with McClincic.

 

[daisy.faithfull]

The wheels of justice grind so slowly, but at least they are grinding, eh?

I can't believe there have only been eight days of trial. Progress is progress though and it takes whatever it takes, but I wish this didn't have to be so difficult for everyone involved.

 

[daisy.faithfull]

I think it was a good thing that TLM lied about Rafferty, as it got the ball rolling faster. From the numbers stated in the below tweets, chances are many of them implicate MR to the crime anyways. With LE originally investigating TLM, I believe within time LE would have figured him out!!

.AM980: Scoyne says there are 1,100 exhibits that have been seized in this investigation.

AM980: 84 exhibits were sent to the OPP centre of forensic science. Scoyne calls that number "unusually large".

So much evidence, I don't even know if there was that much in Caylee's trial.

This trial is so overwhelming in a couple of other ways too. The emotional impact is just off the charts, and then it's not just how much evidence, but the different kinds too. The videos, crime scene photos, going to the crime scene, forensics and the experts that brings not to mention the eye witness and the whole can of worms that is opening! :what:

So when you add how slowly it's going, I think the chapters that the Crown used to sum up their case might end up being a good strategy to pull everything together.

My heart goes out to those jurors, I really admire what they are doing for Tori. It really is a lot.

 

[antiquegirl]

(Respectfully snipped)

I'd like to look at this from a different angle.

He was the one who sucked TLM into abducting Tori,

• She is the one who did the actual abducting. She could have refused.
  
  
• She could have changed her mind and let Tori go on the way to the car.
  
  
• She could have fled the car with Tori while he went into Tim Hortons.
  
  
• She could have fled the car with Tori while he was using the ATM.
  
  
• She could have fled the car with Tori while he was purchasing drugs in Guelph.

he is the one who suggested TLM go into HD and purchase the murder weapon

• She is the one who purchased the murder weapon.
  
  
• She could have gone into Home Depot, used their phone and called LE to report the abduction.

he is the one who drove the vehicle to Tori's final destination

• She could have seized that hammer while Tori was allegedly abused and used it on MR to protect Tori.
  
  
• She could have used the hammer on MR instead of Tori after the alleged abuse.
  
  
• She could have gone to LE when she got home ... or anytime after that.
  
  
• She could have confessed any time within the six weeks before it was finally coerced out of her.

But she didn’t do any of these things. If everything she testified this week is true, there are no excuses good enough. She had multiple chances to prevent this terrible disaster, but she did not. And when she did confess six week later, she lied and said MR murdered Tori.

It is MOO that TLM is at least as culpable as MR. His role is yet to be proven and I anxiously await the evidence that he did everything TLM has accused him of. TLM -- the self-admitted liar, junkie, and coward with six prior convictions on her sheet.


JMO