Kentucky - Judge killed, sheriff arrested in Letcher County courthouse shooting - Sep. 19, 2024 # 3

[Deleted member 296739]

Motive vs Mens Rea​

Motive is often confused with mens rea which means "guilty mind" and refers to the defendant's culpability or intent to commit the criminal act.

To be clear, while motive might help the prosecution explain why Stines executed Mullins in his Chambers, it's not necessary to convict him. There was no motive presented at the PC hearing and the grand jury doesn't need one to indict him for murder.

Citing examples posited on the thread thus far, whether Stines perceived drug treatment financial fraud or wrong doing against his child, it doesn't make Stines any less guilty from acting as the judge and jury here, and following through with intentionally shooting Mullins multiple times and leaving him to die on the floor of his Chambers that the world witnessed on video.

If the defense wants to introduce claims beyond Stines relied on speculation and hearsay, he's going to have to produce specific evidence to show a nexus between his claim outlined in his defense Motion that Stines didn't intend to kill Mullins.

As we just saw in the Delphi trial, case law is quite clear that the nexus must not be based on speculation, conjecture, rumors, or hearsay, but rather on admissible evidence.

KY 507.020 MURDER

Thanks

 

[PrairieWind]

From what I understood via the MSM links previously posted, the video the public saw was an edited version of the full video - all recorded from one camera (same angle). In the full video, there are several people in the judge's chamber, they all leave and then Stines comes in. They talk then he takes out his phone & dials his daughter's number. Then he takes the judge's phone and does the same. It's the same view we all saw when Stines was walking around the desk shooting at the judge.

Based on the section of the video that was made public, I don't believe anyone had a high (enough) res view of the judge's phone screen when Stines was calling his daughter's number on it, to be able to discern whether her number came up or not, as Stines was dialing it. The claim was made that because he manually dialed in the number, it wasn't stored as contact (with the implication it was never dialed from the phone previous to Stines dialing it himself).

The problem with that argument is, it simply doesn't hold water. From the wee research I've done via google's new AI, iPhone does the same thing Android does, and pre-poplulates the number field as you're dialing the number, even if you've never manually saved a number as a contact. If it's ever been dialed before, it's still in the phone. You can manually dial it, or you can just click the pre-populated number as it comes up. The other part of that argument is, the lead detective's testimony about the daughter's interview detailing what occurred during her phone conversations with the judge, and the records of those calls being on the judge's cell phone records as well. So we know they had phone conversations regardless of who called who.

jmo

so on my iphone, if I manually enter a number that is in my contacts, it does not prepopulate and it doesn't show the contact until the the full number is entered, then the contact name appears under the number.

 

[Deleted member 296739]

so on my iphone, if I manually enter a number that is in my contacts, it does not prepopulate and it doesn't show the contact until the the full number is entered, then the contact name appears under the number.

Ok same- I had to check because it’s been forever since I manually typed a number of a contact- it’s usually calling a doctor or business or something- so I’m still just as confused by the statements that seem to be contradictory about the daughter’s number and the judges phone- moo

 

[Auntie Cipation]

For me some of the confusion is related to the lack of a definition of what "saved" in a phone means.

Obviously an entered contact with a name has been "saved". But a number which is not a contact, but dialed or received, is also "saved", in the call log or what my phone labels "recents".

Here is a screenshot of my "recents" -- you can see that the calls that reveal a name are from a number that has been entered into my contacts. While the ones that only show numbers are not in my contacts.

 

[Deleted member 296739]

For me some of the confusion is related to the lack of a definition of what "saved" in a phone means.

Obviously an entered contact with a name has been "saved". But a number which is not a contact, but dialed or received, is also "saved", in the call log or what my phone labels "recents".

Here is a screenshot of my "recents" -- you can see that the calls that reveal a name are from a number that has been entered into my contacts. While the ones that only show numbers are not in my contacts.

is View attachment 544968

Mine looks similar- and I was having trouble reconciling- multiple calls, not saved, calls would show up in judge’s call records… maybe I’m missing something… moo

 

[Auntie Cipation]

Mine looks similar- and I was having trouble reconciling- multiple calls, not saved, calls would show up in judge’s call records… maybe I’m missing something… moo

My recents list is chronological, so each call shows up individually even if the previous call (or previous seven calls) were to/from the same person.

The judge's phone's list would show any calls to the daughter's phone, which would match the daughter's phone's list of calls with the judge's phone. Their entire lists wouldn't match, but each call between them would show up on both phones' logs/recents.

My recents list includes several people whose names/numbers have been saved as contacts in my phone (the ones showing names) and several which have not been saved (the ones showing numbers). Not saved doesn't mean they haven't had lots of calls between them, only that the number/name wasn't entered into contacts.

IMO.

 

[Sunny Day]

Ok same- I had to check because it’s been forever since I manually typed a number of a contact- it’s usually calling a doctor or business or something- so I’m still just as confused by the statements that seem to be contradictory about the daughter’s number and the judges phone- moo

Same for my Android. A couple of times I have manually typed in a phone number, not realizing that I had called that number before and had previously added it to contacts. After the number is entered the previously saved contact name pops up.

 

[Deleted member 296739]

My recents list is chronological, so each call shows up individually even if the previous call (or previous seven calls) were to/from the same person.

The judge's phone's list would show any calls to the daughter's phone, which would match the daughter's phone's list of calls with the judge's phone. Their entire lists wouldn't match, but each call between them would show up on both phones' logs/recents.

My recents list includes several people whose names/numbers have been saved as contacts in my phone (the ones showing names) and several which have not been saved (the ones showing numbers). Not saved doesn't mean they haven't had lots of calls between them, only that the number/name wasn't entered into contacts.

IMO.

But either one could delete call log entry

 

[PrairieWind]

But either one could delete call log entry

Correct. So if what the LEO was saying was that the number in the call log was not "saved" meaning it was missing, a call they know occurred from the daughter's phone, then it was manually deleted, which would be very suspicious.

 

[Deleted member 296739]

Correct. So if what the LEO was saying was that the number in the call log was not "saved" meaning it was missing, a call they know occurred from the daughter's phone, then it was manually deleted, which would be very suspicious.

Maybe- it was rather odd to me - moo

 

[Seattle1]

Correct. So if what the LEO was saying was that the number in the call log was not "saved" meaning it was missing, a call they know occurred from the daughter's phone, then it was manually deleted, which would be very suspicious.

^^bbm

LE confirmed Stines dialed his daughter's number from Mullins phone per the "call log." See linked post #287.

Any incoming calls from the daughter's phone is all speculation and rumor-- not confirmed.

To be clear, from the witness testimony (transcript) during the prelim hearing, the lead investigator provided the following:

DEFENSE - And can you describe for us what happened immediately prior to the clip that we saw?

DETECTIVE - Sheriff Stines' uses his telephone to make some phone calls, he then borrows Judge Mullens' cell phone, and appears to make a call on that, and that led to what you just saw.

[..]

DEFENSE - Again, based upon your conversation with the officers, are you aware of any recent content that was up and could have been relevant at the time of their discussion?

DETECTIVE - I was told that Sheriff Stines had tried to call his daughter, and he had tried to call his daughter from the Judge's phone also.

DEFENSE - So, have you obtained the phone records from Judge Mullens' phone?

DETECTIVE - I don't have those in my possession yet, no.

DEFENSE - Have you issued a search warrant for those?

DETECTIVE - Yes, yes.

DEFENSE - And have officers confirmed that the Sheriff's daughter's phone number was on Judge Mullens' phone?

DETECTIVE - Yes.

DEFENSE - So that number had been called from Judge Mullens' phone?

DETECTIVE - Yes.

Post in thread 'Kentucky - Judge killed, sheriff arrested in Letcher County courthouse shooting - Sep. 19, 2024'

Oct 2, 2024

Erm I apologise in advance for the length....

PROBABLE CAUSE HEARING

1ST OCTOBER

PROSECUTOR - Can you state your name for the record?

DETECTIVE - Clayton Stamper.

PROSECUTOR - How are you employed?

DETECTIVE - I'm a detective with the Kentucky State Police assigned to post 13 hazard.

PROSECUTOR - How long have you been employed?

DETECTIVE - I've been with KSP a little over 24 years. A detective since 2006.

PROSECUTOR - And have you in the (inaudible), have you investigated the death of Kevin Mullins?

DETECTIVE...

• Allabouttrial

• 
• 
• 

 

[Deleted member 296739]

^^bbm

LE confirmed Stines dialed his daughter's number from Mullins phone per the "call log." See linked post #287.

Any incoming calls from the daughter's phone is all speculation and rumor-- not confirmed.

To be clear, from the witness testimony (transcript) during the prelim hearing, the lead investigator provided the following:

DEFENSE - And can you describe for us what happened immediately prior to the clip that we saw?

DETECTIVE - Sheriff Stines' uses his telephone to make some phone calls, he then borrows Judge Mullens' cell phone, and appears to make a call on that, and that led to what you just saw.

[..]

DEFENSE - Again, based upon your conversation with the officers, are you aware of any recent content that was up and could have been relevant at the time of their discussion?

DETECTIVE - I was told that Sheriff Stines had tried to call his daughter, and he had tried to call his daughter from the Judge's phone also.

DEFENSE - So, have you obtained the phone records from Judge Mullens' phone?

DETECTIVE - I don't have those in my possession yet, no.

DEFENSE - Have you issued a search warrant for those?

DETECTIVE - Yes, yes.

DEFENSE - And have officers confirmed that the Sheriff's daughter's phone number was on Judge Mullens' phone?

DETECTIVE - Yes.

DEFENSE - So that number had been called from Judge Mullens' phone?

DETECTIVE - Yes.

Post in thread 'Kentucky - Judge killed, sheriff arrested in Letcher County courthouse shooting - Sep. 19, 2024'

Oct 2, 2024

Erm I apologise in advance for the length....

PROBABLE CAUSE HEARING

1ST OCTOBER

PROSECUTOR - Can you state your name for the record?

DETECTIVE - Clayton Stamper.

PROSECUTOR - How are you employed?

DETECTIVE - I'm a detective with the Kentucky State Police assigned to post 13 hazard.

PROSECUTOR - How long have you been employed?

DETECTIVE - I've been with KSP a little over 24 years. A detective since 2006.

PROSECUTOR - And have you in the (inaudible), have you investigated the death of Kevin Mullins?

DETECTIVE...

• Allabouttrial

• 
• 
• 

Conversations between the phones are confirmed, and no confirmation that any calls originated from the daughter’s phone, correct?

 

[OldAce]

Conversations between the phones are confirmed, and no confirmation that any calls originated from the daughter’s phone, correct?

It just dawned on me, with all the posts ref the phones having called, been called, saved, caught in an index, etc that I have no idea nor have given thought to, why and for what logical reason would the daughter and the judge have been having phone conversations? I am sure there are many and varied, but name one. No mentions of Stines wife calling.
So LE has talked to her and she has revealed a reason/subject. With this info, why has no commentary been made as to the interview showing the unimportance of these calls?
We know Stines shot the judge, on camera and is a fact. We know that is solid evidence of murder. Jury to interpret.
What we are seeking here is his motive for doing it, whether justified in his mind or ours is immaterial to guilt.
A motive or reason might have some sway with a jury as to his punishment.

 

[rogue ant]

On my Android the keypad does not auto-complete a number not in my contacts, even if I've called that number before. I delete my call history pretty often out of habit so maybe that's why.

 

[fred&edna]

We went through this a day or so ago trying to figure it out and it looks like calendar days not business days and if its a holiday or weekend then it’s the next business day- and it doesn’t include the day it was ordered- so counting starts Oct 2, and 60 days is a Saturday so Dec 2 Monday is the best guess- state statutes on computing time linked above in previous post- this was as best we could figure so if not the week of 11/25 then 12/2

I do hope there is a decision soon, as I just read this regarding no Grand Jury in December.

(a) Number and Duration of Service: There shall be empaneled in each county of the circuit two (2) Grand Juries each year. The first Grand Jury shall be empaneled during the January jury sessions and shall serve through the month of May, unless previously discharged by the Court. A second Grand Jury shall be empaneled during the June jury session and shall serve through the month of November, unless previously discharged by the Court. Except when otherwise provided by special order, there shall be no Grand Jury sitting in December. For good cause, the term of a Grand Jury can be extended up to three (3) additional months, but only one (1) Grand Jury shall be empaneled in a county at any one time.

View Document - Kentucky Court Rules

govt.westlaw.com

 

[Ontario Mom]

Conversations between the phones are confirmed, and no confirmation that any calls originated from the daughter’s phone, correct?

The conversations between the phones was essentially confirmed by the lead detective's testimony when he stated any records of calls on the daughter's phone would also be found on the judge's cell phone records. He clearly testified that Stines' kid described what occurred during these conversations. He never specified who called who but he was very clear there were conversations.

 

[Deleted member 296739]

I do hope there is a decision soon, as I just read this regarding no Grand Jury in December.

(a) Number and Duration of Service: There shall be empaneled in each county of the circuit two (2) Grand Juries each year. The first Grand Jury shall be empaneled during the January jury sessions and shall serve through the month of May, unless previously discharged by the Court. A second Grand Jury shall be empaneled during the June jury session and shall serve through the month of November, unless previously discharged by the Court. Except when otherwise provided by special order, there shall be no Grand Jury sitting in December. For good cause, the term of a Grand Jury can be extended up to three (3) additional months, but only one (1) Grand Jury shall be empaneled in a county at any one time.

View Document - Kentucky Court Rules

govt.westlaw.com

I agree that sooner than later, and I took it to mean that this GJ could be extended if needed- but IANAL and quite clueless on KY laws- moo

 

[Deleted member 296739]

The conversations between the phones was essentially confirmed by the lead detective's testimony when he stated any records of calls on the daughter's phone would also be found on the judge's cell phone records. He clearly testified that Stines' kid described what occurred during these conversations. He never specified who called who but he was very clear there were conversations.

Thanks

 

[OldAce]

The conversations between the phones was essentially confirmed by the lead detective's testimony when he stated any records of calls on the daughter's phone would also be found on the judge's cell phone records. He clearly testified that Stines' kid described what occurred during these conversations. He never specified who called who but he was very clear there were conversations.

But I am wondering why any call/conversation between the daughter and the judge. Surely there is a reason for he to call her or she to call him. but what. Such as a mundane call regarding setting up a birthday party. Would he speak to a group she was involved in? There has to be a reason, and as so many details in this case appear to be so unreasonable.
I mean life goes on daily, good or bad. But situations have causes, and causes have reason to occur.

If the conversations are not of concern, why this all about the phones ref the judge and the daughter?

If the calls/conversations have no connection to the shooting, why are they in a forensic lab? If they are, why not the daughters? If they take the daughters version of why the call, will they take Stines version (when/if) offered.
They apparently know Stines called his daughter on both phones. What is to learn further, that Stine's recited his plan to kill the judge? Are calls only date times, # to #, duration?

 

[al66pine]

I do hope there is a decision soon, as I just read this regarding no Grand Jury in December.

(a) Number and Duration of Service: There shall be empaneled in each county of the circuit two (2) Grand Juries each year. The first Grand Jury shall be empaneled during the January jury sessions and shall serve through the month of May, unless previously discharged by the Court. A second Grand Jury shall be empaneled during the June jury session and shall serve through the month of November, unless previously discharged by the Court. Except when otherwise provided by special order, there shall be no Grand Jury sitting in December. For good cause, the term of a Grand Jury can be extended up to three (3) additional months, but only one (1) Grand Jury shall be empaneled in a county at any one time.

View Document - Kentucky Court Rules

govt.westlaw.com

@fred&edna Thx for post w quote & link.

" Except when otherwise provided by special order, there shall be no Grand Jury sitting in December."

So, it's possible by a special order, the grand jury will sit in Dec?
Any specific basis for us to think there has been no special order?
If already discussed answered, my apologies
@fred&edna ? Anyone? TiA