MA - Conrad Roy, 18, urged by friend, commits suicide, Fairhaven, 13 July 2014

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  • #421
If it ISN'T a crime to encourage someone to commit suicide, it really should be. Maybe this case will prompt that to happen.

This is NO DIFFERENT than a case with obvious bullying, and most people are all about prosecuting bullies. Explain to me how this is different? In both situations, one person is encouraging another to end their own life. Is it only a crime if it's done alongside taunting and harassment?

Agree. Sometimes suicidal people will murder others right before committing suicide. So by encouraging someone to commit suicide; you are also putting other people at risk. A suicidal person may take your advice to kill themselves but they may also start blaming others for their pain and (unknowingly to you) decide to do a murder suicide.
 
  • #422
1. No
2. Maybe
3. Maybe, but under the laws that protect minors.

you think it should be legal to encourage people that are blackout drunk to commit suicide? if you say so then i will have to believe you.

what is different about the mentally ill person that makes you think "maybe" it should be a crime?

and even regarding a child? its only "maybe" a crime if i talk a 7 year old into jumping off a building because he is upset and despondent?
 
  • #423
so to explain what i thought would be obvious about those questions - they are all situations where people are not able to fully comprehend the consequences of their actions, and they are all people that are at risk and can be subject to manipulation.

i think most people would agree that it should definitely be a crime to prey on people that are in these states. so then obviously in this case it would be important to know the degree to which conrad might have been impaired by any number of things, most notably his mental illness.

imo it should be a crime to assist someone and/or encourage someone (she did both) to kill themselves unless there is a medical professional involved or there are obvious and permanent extenuating circumstances.

that is how i feel in general, and specifically in this case there seems to be an abundance of evidence that not only did she assist him in killing himself, and encourage him to kill himself, but also that she did so not out of concern for him but with malicious intent.

could i imagine a case similar to this where the person in her shoes would not be guilty of a crime? possibly but it would be rare.
 
  • #424
Charles Manson comes to mind. He's in prison for 'encouraging' his followers to kill, but he didn't do the killing himself. MC encouraged Conrad Roy to kill himself. Isn't this somewhat similar?

I was thinking that too. I also thought of Pamela Smart.
 
  • #425
you think it should be legal to encourage people that are blackout drunk to commit suicide? if you say so then i will have to believe you.

what is different about the mentally ill person that makes you think "maybe" it should be a crime?

and even regarding a child? its only "maybe" a crime if i talk a 7 year old into jumping off a building because he is upset and despondent?

1. My answer is based on the assumption that no one forced the person to get blackout drunk. A person chooses to get blackout drunk, that person alone is responsible for whatever he/she does under the influence. If you (not you personally, the generic you) put yourself into a state in which you willingly do whatever someone else suggests you do, or otherwise do something that you wouldn't do while not in that state, you brought that on yourself. AFAIK our justice system doesn't let people off criminal charges because they were under the influence of one substance or another.

I know bartenders can be held responsible for serving an obviously intoxicated person who later gets into a drunk driving accident. But even in such instances, the bartender's role in the situation doesn't absolve the drunk person of responsibility. No more than in this case, Michelle's actions absolve Conrad of any responsibility for his own death. IMO of course. (And anyone who might think I sound callous toward Carter by saying this, please read my previous posts regarding the loved ones I've lost to suicide.)

2. It depends on the role the person played in the mentally ill person's life. Whether that someone could be perceived as in authority over, or as a caretaker for, the mentally ill person, such as a psychiatric nurse, or not. Health care professionals have legal duties to their patients. Friends/acquaintances/family members don't have such legal responsibilities. IMO crime for the former, not for the latter.

3. There was some logic in my mind at the time of my response regarding maybe instead of yes, but it's been a long week and I am super tired and I can't remember it at the moment. So can I change my answer to yes? With the caveat that I can change it back to maybe if my logic comes back to me, of course.

I see what you are saying, but in response to your post #423, I don't think there is any evidence that Conrad was unable to fully comprehend the consequences of his actions.
 
  • #426
  • #427
1. My answer is based on the assumption that no one forced the person to get blackout drunk. A person chooses to get blackout drunk, that person alone is responsible for whatever he/she does under the influence. If you (not you personally, the generic you) put yourself into a state in which you willingly do whatever someone else suggests you do, or otherwise do something that you wouldn't do while not in that state, you brought that on yourself. AFAIK our justice system doesn't let people off criminal charges because they were under the influence of one substance or another.

I know bartenders can be held responsible for serving an obviously intoxicated person who later gets into a drunk driving accident. But even in such instances, the bartender's role in the situation doesn't absolve the drunk person of responsibility. No more than in this case, Michelle's actions absolve Conrad of any responsibility for his own death. IMO of course. (And anyone who might think I sound callous toward Carter by saying this, please read my previous posts regarding the loved ones I've lost to suicide.)

2. It depends on the role the person played in the mentally ill person's life. Whether that someone could be perceived as in authority over, or as a caretaker for, the mentally ill person, such as a psychiatric nurse, or not. Health care professionals have legal duties to their patients. Friends/acquaintances/family members don't have such legal responsibilities. IMO crime for the former, not for the latter.

3. There was some logic in my mind at the time of my response regarding maybe instead of yes, but it's been a long week and I am super tired and I can't remember it at the moment. So can I change my answer to yes? With the caveat that I can change it back to maybe if my logic comes back to me, of course.

I see what you are saying, but in response to your post #423, I don't think there is any evidence that Conrad was unable to fully comprehend the consequences of his actions.

i certainly never said that anything she did absolves him of any of his responsibility in the situation, i agree that he is still responsible for his actions, but it works the other way also.

do you feel any differently about the bartender situation if the drunk guy comes back in the bar and says he doesnt think he should drive and the bartender takes him back outside and encourages him to drive and tells him it will be fine?

i think there is plenty of evidence that conrad was in a weakened, fragile, and highly suggestible state. i think there is plenty of evidence that he was suffering from a significant degree of mental illness. i think there is definitely some question about his ability to make sound judgments for himself, the fact that he went through with it would be strong evidence of this no?

i further think that if this girl did not encourage him to continue on with his plan that he would not have killed himself on that day. i think it is very evident that if instead of telling him "GET BACK IN" the car she had instead said "COME TO MY HOUSE NOW" or "CALL YOUR MOM" etc that he very likely would not have killed himself that day.

did her actions play a significant part in whether or not he died that day? absolutely. does it appear that her actions may have been malicious and not in any way intended as sympathetic or an attempt to help someone in pain? it would appear so, from what we know now. does any of that mean he isnt responsible for his actions? no, he is still responsible. and as we would in any other case, when we consider his personal responsibility we can take into account whether or not he was in his right mind at the time.
 
  • #428
  • #429
Daily Mail:

'Get back in the car': Honor student 'urged boyfriend by text to gas himself because if he didn't follow through he would only threaten to do it again'

Michelle Carter 'sent Conrad Roy III, 18, a series of texts encouraging to take his life in a parking lot in Fairhaven, Massachusetts last July'

He was found dead of carbon monoxide poisoning in his idling truck

Days later, she told a friend she was worried that the police were checking his text messages, saying: 'I'm done... I could go to jail'

After he died, she raised money for suicide prevention and wrote on Twitter about how much she missed him

Carter, who was 17 at the time, was arraigned last month and is free on bail; she is due back in court in April


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...t-follow-just-threaten-day.html#ixzz3TvhHwjJv
 
  • #430
I find some of her other texts more alarming than even the ones to The boy. She was texting in between that she had not found him though she was texting with him. That I find confusing.

I can not think of a reason she would want him dead. Listening to his dad explain his depression and struggles. It could be that it was way worse than the family knew. Maybe she just could not see him in so much pain anymore. He didn't do it because she told him to get back in the car. He did it because he wanted to. So that is where it kind of stops for me.
 
  • #431
i further think that if this girl did not encourage him to continue on with his plan that he would not have killed himself on that day.

Respectfully snipped for focus

You may well be correct. As I stated earlier, though, I don't think there's any way this can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

Based on the information that has been released, her actions do appear to be vile, reprehensible.

I am not sure they were criminal, however. I have difficulty categorizing them in my own mind as involuntary manslaughter or even assisted suicide.

We all can present as many hypotheticals as we want, but that doesn't mean they are relevant to this case. But as long as we're doing so, I presented this hypothetical earlier but as far as I noticed no one responded, so I'll repeat it.

If a person is standing on a ledge and a random crowd gathers and chants to the person, "Jump! Jump!" and the person does, are the people in the crowd guilty of involuntary manslaughter and/or assisted suicide?

What if it's not a random crowd but a group of the person's coworkers?

A group consisting solely of the person's family members?

A group consisting solely of the people the person considered to be friends?

If the answer to the first question is no--and as far as I know no one has ever been prosecuted for such a thing--why should the answer to the fourth question be yes?

None of them pushed the person off the ledge.

I will be very interested to see how this case unfolds from a legal standpoint.
 
  • #432
Carter then sent her friend another message, stating: "Yeah, he's been missing since Wednesday night when u guys slept over. He hasn't called or talked to me or anyone since. I just don't understand, he didn't even tell me. Like we were supposed to hangout today and he knew that."


http://www.people.com/article/teen-accused-boyfriend-suicide


 
  • #433
Respectfully snipped for focus

You may well be correct. As I stated earlier, though, I don't think there's any way this can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

Based on the information that has been released, her actions do appear to be vile, reprehensible.

I am not sure they were criminal, however. I have difficulty categorizing them in my own mind as involuntary manslaughter or even assisted suicide.

We all can present as many hypotheticals as we want, but that doesn't mean they are relevant to this case. But as long as we're doing so, I presented this hypothetical earlier but as far as I noticed no one responded, so I'll repeat it.

If a person is standing on a ledge and a random crowd gathers and chants to the person, "Jump! Jump!" and the person does, are the people in the crowd guilty of involuntary manslaughter and/or assisted suicide?

What if it's not a random crowd but a group of the person's coworkers?

A group consisting solely of the person's family members?

A group consisting solely of the people the person considered to be friends?

If the answer to the first question is no--and as far as I know no one has ever been prosecuted for such a thing--why should the answer to the fourth question be yes?

None of them pushed the person off the ledge.

I will be very interested to see how this case unfolds from a legal standpoint.



"none of them pushed him from the ledge"

there are plenty of circumstances where actually physically causing the death is not necessary in order to be charged with a crime.

and the main issue with your scenario is one of context, motivation, and awareness. what did the person know about the situation when they were engaging in their conduct? can we say anything about why they did what they did? should a reasonable person have known that their actions might cause another person to take their life?
 
  • #434
Conspiracy to commit murder? He did murder himself and she conspired 1000%. Jmo
 
  • #435
Sounds a bit like Munchausen by Proxy IMO. She gets attention when she's "worried" about him, so she tells people she hasn't heard from him and is oh so very concerned about her dear friend. In reality, she's encouraging him to go through with it so she can reap the attention benefits of being a grieving friend. The attention of being the one to start a suicide prevention fund. Twisted.
 
  • #436
This isnt hard imvho, respectfully. All she had to do was tell his family and or law enforcement where he was and what he was doing. He would have been rescued, like he was before.

She didnt. She knew it was wrong not to do it. In fact she knew if LE read those texts his family would hate her and she could go to jail.

Baiting him into it is the cherry on top for me. The fact that she encouraged and pushed him is just extra. The fact that she didnt choose to intervene like a normal human being would do shows that she is very broken some where.

ETA: The fact that she knew where he was, pretended she didnt and baited his family and tortured his sister with texts etc...these are the aggravators for me that bring us to the manslaughter charge.
 
  • #437
This isnt hard imvho, respectfully. All she had to do was tell his family and or law enforcement where he was and what he was doing. He would have been rescued, like he was before.

She didnt. She knew it was wrong not to do it. In fact she knew if LE read those texts his family would hate her and she could go to jail.

Baiting him into it is the cherry on top for me. The fact that she encouraged and pushed him is just extra. The fact that she didnt choose to intervene like a normal human being would do shows that she is very broken some where.

ETA: The fact that she knew where he was, pretended she didnt and baited his family and tortured his sister with texts etc...these are the aggravators for me that bring us to the manslaughter charge.

Hopefully they will make a federal law which will cover every state. Suicidal people are mentally ill and by preying on them to end their life should garner stiff punishment. Bullying is one thing but to be a suicidal angel of death is something else. Jmo.
 
  • #438
Sounds a bit like Munchausen by Proxy IMO. She gets attention when she's "worried" about him, so she tells people she hasn't heard from him and is oh so very concerned about her dear friend. In reality, she's encouraging him to go through with it so she can reap the attention benefits of being a grieving friend. The attention of being the one to start a suicide prevention fund. Twisted.

I recall 'Munchausen by Proxy' *was mentioned earlier as a poss mental illness for MC.
Have read a few lay/non-tech articles on this, also called Medical Child Abuse (no link handy, sorry).

Seems MC's communications w Conrad may have exacerbated his depression & negative feelings, and
seems she enjoyed attn she received from her friends (and maybe her fam) re what she said about him.
Not seeing that she got attn form his med care providers.So IIRC, does not characterize MC's relationship w Conrad,
as she was not a caregiver for him, and was not the one who sought health care treatment & medical providers for him
(AFAIK, she did not have contact w his med professionals).

Whether MC's actions & thinking can be characterized as mental health issues or plain evil, there is mos def something wrong w her, imo.

Whether her actions reach the level criminal responsibility for manslaughter, IDK.

________________________________________________________________________________________
*. FWIW from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Münchausen_syndrome_by_proxy below bbm
"Münchausen syndrome by proxy (MSBP or MBP) is a behaviour pattern in which a caregiver fabricates, exaggerates, or induces mental or physical health problems in those who are in their care.[SUP][1][/SUP] With deception at its core, this behaviour is an elusive, potentially lethal, and frequently misunderstood form of child abuse[SUP][2][/SUP] or medical neglect[SUP][3][/SUP] that has been difficult to define, detect, and confirm.MSbP has also spawned much heated controversy within the legal and social services communities...."

"In Münchausen syndrome by proxy, an adult caregiver makes a child appear mentally or physically ill or impaired by either fabricating symptoms or actually causing harm to the child, in order to gain the attention of medical providers and others. In order to perpetuate the medical relationship, the caregiver systematically misrepresents symptoms, fabricates signs, manipulates laboratory tests, or even purposely harms the child (e.g. by poisoning, suffocation, infection, physical injury).[SUP][5][/SUP] Studies have shown a mortality rate of between 6% and 10% of MSbP victims, making it perhaps the most lethal form of abuse.[SUP][6][/SUP][SUP][7][/SUP]
 
  • #439
But they would have to evaluate her if they decide to use a mental defense. But right now they are saying that there is no current law to prohibit this. So i truly think the supreme judges will get this case. Jmo
 
  • #440
"none of them pushed him from the ledge"

there are plenty of circumstances where actually physically causing the death is not necessary in order to be charged with a crime.

I am aware of that. But I am not sure, from a legal standpoint, whether this case qualifies as one of those.

and the main issue with your scenario is one of context, motivation, and awareness. what did the person know about the situation when they were engaging in their conduct? can we say anything about why they did what they did? should a reasonable person have known that their actions might cause another person to take their life?

All good questions, however IMO unable to be answered except subjectively.

1. This seems to be the one most easily answered, based on the information that has been released. But IMO it does little to answer the next two questions:

2. Assuming Michelle knew Conrad's situation inside and out in answer to #1, we (the generic we) can say volumes about why she did what she did. That doesn't mean anything that is said is correct or true. I guarantee that for any psychological expert that will testify for the prosecution as to why Michelle acted she did, there will be one on the defense side who will testify the exact opposite. This realm is simply not an exact science.

3. Here again, I see a lot of areas fraught with subjectivity. Is a person that young really "reasonable"? I expect many parents of kids that age would disagree (I am not a parent myself). But even if so, is it realistic to expect that person to act with 100% reasonableness at all times? Not even adults are able to do that, particularly in such an emotionally charged situation.

Those areas of subjectivity aside, I have a real problem with the concept that one person can make or cause another person to perform a certain action in the absence of the threat of physical force.

I would be quite interested in reading about any cases in which "he/she made me do it" led to the conviction of he or she.

I'm not talking about a conspiracy in which he or she clearly helped plan the crime (i.e. Charles Manson and Pamela Smart, come ON people!) since AFAIK there is no evidence in this case to suggest Michelle helped Conrad plan his suicide.

All I remember seeing is speculation, so if I'm wrong, someone please point me to a link.
 
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