MA - Professor Karen Read, 43, charged with murdering police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe by hitting him with car, Canton, 14 Apr 2023 #21 Retrial

[PenelopeJude]

I still think it was the taillight

They were not testing for John’s DNA
They were testing for DOG DNA.
They tested two different ways- zero DNA from a dog

I was just giving ya a bone to chew on and consider

A bone to chew on…

 

[ShadyLady]

A bone to chew on…

Doggone.

 

[DustysMom]

Just saw an interesting comment.

A lot of us think KR did not have anything to do with JOK. So the question, is why was he killed? If he had only been hurt in Albert's home, why not call a paramedic?

Does anyone know if JOK was working on a particular case? In the previous months had he made some enemies?

Was it an accident, or intentional?

SPECULATION- there could have been any number of stupid reasons leading one or more of the guys to drunkenly punch him. Alcohol plus testosterone equals violence. He could have made a remark and someone who had an axe to grind hauled off and hit him. JO loses his balance and falls backwards, maybe down a flight of stairs, and hits the back of his head rendering him unconscious.

OR MORE SPECULATION
It’s possible that he was attacked by Chloe as he walked in and then he cold cocked the dog with his cocktail or kicked her down the stairs. Chloe’s owners are now pissed at JO and beat him up.

IF someone at 34 F was responsible, I don’t think it was planned or intentional. But, IMO, whatever happened, happened quick @12:33 and it must have been immediately apparent that he was fatally injured or I imagine they would have called paramedics.

Having an iPhone in a pocket or bag would cause movement like sitting, standing, or shifting positions may cause the accelerometer and altimeter to misinterpret these actions as climbing.

I almost never pay any attention to my Apple Health app; however, today, I decided to walk up and down several flights of stairs and it didnt record them as climbing. I have an Apple Watch and it recorded the flights climbed. moo

interesting - thanks for answering - I might have to break down and buy an Apple Watch.
Do we know the source (Apple Watch, health app, or other) for JO taking 80ish steps?

 

[mrjitty]

How about if the phone is turned off instead of simply being locked. Will it register movement then?

The phone was not turned off. if it was, it would show in the extraction

 

[mrjitty]

The Waze data is certainly not accurate. I used Waze last week on a long road trip, it lost my correct location many time and I would have to close it and re open for it to update and find me again. It was annoying but it’s my favorite.

The trouble is all of Waze, JOK's iphone location and the key cycle data agree that there was a 3 point turn and he was half a mile away at 12.22. While I agree Waze could have some inaccuracy i don't think its believable that he was actually in the house going up stairs at that time.

See page p127 of this filing which Guarano testified to at trial.

Also of note is that O'Keefe's health data in Cellebrite shows him ascending/descending three (3) flights of stairs at 12:22:14AM. The native locations in Cellebrite and the Cached locations in Axiom both show O'Keefe's phone location by the intersection of Oakdale Road and Pine Cone Road, in front of 36 Oakdale Road, which is approximately a little over a half a mile away from 34 Fairview Rd.

Anyways back to the case, the Waze data had them at 12:24 still half a mile away. That’s not accurate because Nagel testified that he texted his sister at 12:21 right before turning on Fairview and they turned on the road right after KR, they flashed their lights to signal her to make the turn first. The house is the second house on Fairview from Cedarcrest, the road they both turned from. This is a very tight timeline, considering JOK disconnected from KRs car at 12:28 and she connected to JOK home wifi at 12:36, which is said to be a 7min drive atleast.

They were half a mile away at 12.22 and arrive at 12.24 according to JOKs phone data (see above source), If you disagree - it would be helpful if you could post a source.

 

[mrjitty]

Question about cell phones recording steps. I have an iPhone and frequently look at my steps using the Health app. I notice it records my steps when I walk and phone is in my pocket but NOT when placed in a dog buggy that I am pushing, not when I hold it in a moving golf cart and not in a car. And, I’m not certain that it always registers when it is in a purse. Furthermore, anyone who walks with me will have a minimum of 10% more steps recorded on their phone even though we walked together for the same distance. SO - IF JO had his phone on him and was moved by car, wheelbarrow or merely lifted and carried - the movement wouldn’t register as steps, would it? And, how accurate is the app or whatever is calculating the steps? Is there a margin of error?

Thanks for engaging seriously with the question! I agree if the phone is stabilised, from personal experience there are no steps recorded - this is why usually you don't get any in the car or on a bike. But you can get them if you have your phone in your hand while sitting and wave your hands around.

I think you are correct that there might be ways to very careful avoid any steps - but you would still get a location update.

IMO there are only 2 serious possibilities. JOK dropped the phone there by the tree, or fell there with his phone. In addition to that steadily declining battery temp is likely going to show the phone never went inside

If the D is going to rely on the apple health data, that feels like a losing argument.

That is why I wonder what the defence will try to argue.

 

[mrjitty]

Karen Read herself stated in interviews that she showed Kerry Russell and Jen McCabe the damage to her taillight in John's driveway. The bulb was exposed. She was concerned about driving because the jagged pieces might cause a short. So she said she picked out fragments out of the taillight cavity and dropped them on the ground.

As far as I know, no fragments or pieces of the taillight were recovered from John's driveway. Maybe they were picked up by the snowblower or shovelers and thrown a good distance and searchers didn't locate them. Or perhaps it didn't happen as she recalled.

The significant aspect of Karen's statements is that she confirmed Kerry's testimony that Karen showed them the damage to the taillight in John's driveway. While the critical video of them leaving is missing, a clip or transcript of Karen's statement supports Kerry's testimony.

Yes I agree that interview is bad. It just doesn't make much sense to me why the CW would delete that footage. Unfortunately due to the crappy investigation we can't know what videos were in the Ring account when proctor first got access to it.

 

[mrjitty]

I have no doubt that ADA Brennan will deliver on every word from his opening statement.

The black box data - invaluable.

• Prosecutor Brennan states in the opening that they know exactly when John O’Keefe was hit by Karen Read’s Lexus based on “black box” data of the vehicle.

Didnt Jackson say in opening that both KR and JOK exited the SUV. So, he knows the black box data is going to show that the driver side of KR’s door opened. Very curious if this is when KR said, “he didnt look mortally wounded as far as I could see." Or was that statement said when she went back to the scene of the crime before contacting KerR and JMc? We shall see. moo

If they have the door opening data it would well be the final nail in the apple health 'flights' argument. In the D version John needs to be climbing stairs at 12.22-12.24 (see my source upthread)

Also I believe the Ryan Nagel text to his sister is at 12.23 - again after JOK needs to be climbing steps

We shall see!

ETA - at 12.55 here, AJ does appear to say "they got out of the SUV ..."

 

[Tortoise]

Talking of steps...how, if John was put in that spot from the house, carried, wheeled in a cart by a person kicking up the snow...how did that person or those people not leave a disturbance in the snow leading from the house to his body and back again to the house? Tracks and compacted snow would still form a visible trail even when more snow has fallen on top.

No tracks seen, no blood trail seen in the virgin snow, from and to the house, just a mound of snow where John laid, with his phone underneath him on bare grass when his body was removed. No compacted snow underneath him.

Absence of evidence is evidence of absence, in this instance. IMO

 

[waldojabba]

Lucky the plow driver. The most credible witness imo of the first trial. No axe to grind.
He went to school with these people. He’s seeming Joe Regular - honest hardworking - backbone of our country.
He sees a ford edge (BA BH CA ?) parked on the street directly in front of where the P claims John’s body was.
He does not call it in to hv the car towed ( blizzard no on street cars) bc he’s doing these guys a favor.
Someone explain that to me. Whose car -( we know three LE who had this kind of car) - what was it doing there and who owned it.
Also someone remind me of why Higgins had his lawyer with him in court and it was okay for him to confer in court while on the stand.

These were just two thoughts I had before heading out on the job.

Appreciate it.

 

[MerlinFalcon]

Talking of steps...how, if John was put in that spot from the house, carried, wheeled in a cart by a person kicking up the snow...how did that person or those people not leave a disturbance in the snow leading from the house to his body and back again to the house? Tracks and compacted snow would still form a visible trail even when more snow has fallen on top.

No tracks seen, no blood trail seen in the virgin snow, from and to the house, just a mound of snow where John laid, with his phone underneath him on bare grass when his body was removed. No compacted snow underneath him.

Absence of evidence is evidence of absence, in this instance. IMO

They didn’t secure the scene. They didn’t look for anything because they were blaming KR. Plus if it was snowing and blowing most tracks would have been covered.

 

[Tortoise]

They didn’t secure the scene. They didn’t look for anything because they were blaming KR. Plus if it was snowing and blowing most tracks would have been covered.

I'm not talking about police. I'm talking about the first people there. Karen, Kerry and Jen, and the first responders. No one noticed a disturbance in the snow leading to and away from the body, which would have been noticeable after such a short space of time, if there were any. According to the defence that would be after snow plow guy went past. Tracks still show indentations, where the snow is falling on different levels beneath.

 

[Wishbone]

Kerry Roberts' testimony:

Day 1
timestamp 7:09:16

Prosecutor Brennan: So as you approach Fairview, tell us what happened.

Kerry Roberts: As we approached Fairview, the house, you mean the house or the street?

HB: Yes, the house.

KR: …the house, Jen said my sister’s house is right up here, and I said okay, and as we approached the house Karen from the back seat is now screaming ‘there he is, there he is, let me the f out of this car', and she’s kicking the back door to get out.

HB: When you heard the defendant scream ‘there he is, there he is’ and start kicking the car door, did you see anything?

KR: I did not.

HB: Did you see anybody?

KR: I did not.

HB: Did you look?

KR: I looked.

HB: Was there anything that impeded your ability to see far?

KR: No, it was just snow.

HB: How far could you see when she was yelling ‘there he is’?

KR: I mean visibility wasn’t great.

HB: Okay. Was she pointing or giving any direction?

KR: No. She just said ‘there he is’

HB: Okay what happens next?

KR: And then I unlocked the car and I looked over and I didn’t see anything and I unlocked it so she could get out of the backseat I looked at Jen and I said ‘she’s crazy’ and then I turned around and watched and she ran over to a mound of snow.

HB: When she started running, before she got anywhere, did you see anything at that point?

KR: I did not.

HB: Were you looking?

KR: I was looking. She said ‘there he is’ so I’m looking around to see where he is.

HB: And you could see nothing?

KR: I did not.

HB: Did you see her run around or directly?

KR: She ran right over to the mound of snow.

HB: Could you tell what the mound of snow was from the car?

KR: Um once she got to it yes, once she got to it you could tell it was a mound of snow that was the length of a body.

HB: Okay.

Day 2
timestamp 54.33

HB: When you first ran over, you mentioned that his head was covered in snow. Was his head fully covered in snow?

KR: Yes.

HB: When you looked down could you see who it was at first?

KR: At first no. I had to dig him out.

HB: When is it that you realized that this was your friend John?

KR: When I cleared the snow off his face.

For me, KerryR has lost all credibility after being impeached by the defense. I don't believe a word out of her mouth and I especially don't believe she liked Karen Read to begin with. JMOO

 

[Tortoise]

For me, KerryR has lost all credibility after being impeached by the defense. I don't believe a word out of her mouth and I especially don't believe she liked Karen Read to begin with. JMOO

I think she was a very credible witness.

 

[MerlinFalcon]

I'm not talking about police. I'm talking about the first people there. Karen, Kerry and Jen, and the first responders. No one noticed a disturbance in the snow leading to and away from the body, which would have been noticeable after such a short space of time, if there were any. According to the defence that would be after snow plow guy went past. Tracks still show indentations, where the snow is falling on different levels beneath.

They weren’t thinking murder at the time, they were trying to save his life. Karen was out of her mind, if JOK indeed knew that he was killed inside she wasn’t going to say a word. I don’t know if Kerry was aware of anything since she wasn’t at the house that night.

 

[Tortoise]

They weren’t thinking murder at the time, they were trying to save his life. Karen was out of her mind, if JOK indeed knew that he was killed inside she wasn’t going to say a word. I don’t know if Kerry was aware of anything since she wasn’t at the house that night.

You don't need to be aware of murder to notice a scene around a body. Just like the snow plower didn't need to be aware of murder to notice a body on the lawn, apparently.

 

[nodamselindistress]

Day Five starts soon....

 

[Wishbone]

sidebah already

 

[Forest_Wood]

Lucky the plow driver. The most credible witness imo of the first trial. No axe to grind.
He went to school with these people. He’s seeming Joe Regular - honest hardworking - backbone of our country.
He sees a ford edge (BA BH CA ?) parked on the street directly in front of where the P claims John’s body was.
He does not call it in to hv the car towed ( blizzard no on street cars) bc he’s doing these guys a favor.
Someone explain that to me. Whose car -( we know three LE who had this kind of car) - what was it doing there and who owned it.
Also someone remind me of why Higgins had his lawyer with him in court and it was okay for him to confer in court while on the stand.

These were just two thoughts I had before heading out on the job.

Appreciate it.

Who were the 3 LE who had this kind of vehicle?
During his direct testimony, BA said he was driving his work vehicle, a Ford Edge. He had left it at a satellite police parking lot closer to the airport before going to NYC. Returning from NYC that night around 9pm, Higgins dropped him off to pick it up, where BA then drove it to meet up with Higgins for an alcoholic drink while having nothing to eat. He later drove it to McCarthys to meet his wife and continued drinking there and at the Waterfall until he drove it home around midnight, where he said he parked it in his driveway.

 

[lohrtabitha]

SPECULATION- there could have been any number of stupid reasons leading one or more of the guys to drunkenly punch him. Alcohol plus testosterone equals violence. He could have made a remark and someone who had an axe to grind hauled off and hit him. JO loses his balance and falls backwards, maybe down a flight of stairs, and hits the back of his head rendering him unconscious.

OR MORE SPECULATION
It’s possible that he was attacked by Chloe as he walked in and then he cold cocked the dog with his cocktail or kicked her down the stairs. Chloe’s owners are now pissed at JO and beat him up.

IF someone at 34 F was responsible, I don’t think it was planned or intentional. But, IMO, whatever happened, happened quick @12:33 and it must have been immediately apparent that he was fatally injured or I imagine they would have called paramedics.

interesting - thanks for answering - I might have to break down and buy an Apple Watch.
Do we know the source (Apple Watch, health app, or other) for JO taking 80ish steps?

And in what I can't understand, why didnt BA or his wife come out to the scene that morning. I'm not believing that they slept through it, not with Chloe in the house? Even after that JM runs into there house and wakes them up and BA and his wife still don't go out. BA was a veteran officer and could have righted the many wrong ways about preserving the crime scene, taking photos, etc. He didn't want to throw himself into the investigation. Jk was a fellow officer and BA should have stepped in. IMO he was hiding. Then how about the text that MM sent to BA instructing him to tell CA to ask questions and to say that guy never came into the house to which BA said exactly. It just seems so cold to me. I dont feel MM considered him to be a good friend like his wife did. As the adage goes with friends like those who needs enemies.