MA - Professor Karen Read, 43, charged with murdering police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe by hitting him with car, Canton, 14 Apr 2023 #27 Retrial

[Malleeboy]

this. We use find my iPhone and 360 when someone loses a phone. Once it showed one we were looking for in the flowerbed right outside my bedroom window, but it was actually about 40ft away (in a room in the house). Another time the apps showed in a different flowerbed, but it was about 60ft away in my car in the dreaded “black hole” on the side of one seat and kind of under another.

I do Geocahcing with my kids, where you use a phone to find hidden caches, the coords are always out and jump around.

 

[Malleeboy]

Arguing.

What is the CW's theory on what KR and JOK were doing in the car until he got out and she hit him?

Well the evidence is that he wasn't in the car according to the two witnesses, one may have missed him but two? And Karen has facing ahead not turn towards where ever Defence think John O'Keefe was.

 

[Tortoise]

Well the evidence is that he wasn't in the car according to the two witnesses, one may have missed him but two? And Karen has facing ahead not turn towards where ever Defence think John O'Keefe was.

I don't think any of the witnesses have testified to whether they saw or would have been able to see who was inside the front seats of the Lexus while they were parked some way behind it. Or that they were watching it constantly.

They only said they noticed Karen alone in the driver's seat when they passed by as they were leaving and the interior light was on, but their primary focus was towards watching Julie going back to the house, and Ryan even said the woman and the SUV itself obstructed his view of anything on the other side of the SUV.

I'm not sure that anyone can say because they didn't notice someone they weren't even looking for, outside a vehicle in the dark with a light inside the vehicle drawing attention inside, it means they weren't there, especially when their focus was also drawn elsewhere.

JMO

 

[kuromiiiilove]

Did we ever hear the time John’s phone disconnected from Karen’s Lexus Bluetooth? I haven’t been able to find it, but I feel like that could be very informative.

 

[sunshineray]

They said they saw the SUV at the cross roads. And when they pulled behind Karen....saw NO John. So I think John was in the house. I trust the timestamps of CW less.

They also said the dome light was on and when asked if they could see if the passenger door was open, they said they couldn't see whether it was or not. JO theoretically could have been standing right there on the passenger side of the SUV without being seen. MO

OR if JO did go in the house (hard to tell because KR said both, first at LE interview at her parent's house, she didn't see him go into the house and then after her arrest, she did see him go inside) like KR said in her documentary, she was extremely angry at how long he was taking inside to come out to tell her what was up. Being so angry and drunk, she could have waited until she saw him come out to throw her fit with an SUV...so he got the full effect of just how put out she was and how dramatically she could leave him stranded in a snow storm. I don't believe she hit him intentionally (the 2nd degree murder charge is not appropriate, IMO) but I think she did in fact hit him. It's possible maybe more than once. AJMO

I don't know how I should link the documentary, "A Body in the Snow: The Trial of Karen Read" so I'll just put what streaming service has it in my neck of the woods.

Watch A Body in the Snow: The Trial of Karen Read | HBO Max

Watch A Body in the Snow: The Trial of Karen Read on HBO Max. Plans start at $9.99/month. This exclusive behind-the-scenes docuseries tells the story of Karen Read, who is on trial for the murder of her boyfriend, Boston police officer John O'Keefe. Read maintains her innocence and argues she's...

www.max.com

 

[Tortoise]

I don't believe she hit him intentionally (the 2nd degree murder charge is not appropriate, IMO) but I think she did in fact hit him. It's possible maybe more than once. AJMO

<RSBM>

The commonwealth isn't claiming she hit him intentionally. I've bolded the relevant portion below -


"In order to prove murder in the second degree, the Commonwealth must prove the following elements:[156]

1. The defendant caused the death of [victim's name].

2. The defendant:

a. intended to kill [victim's name]; or

b. intended to cause grievous bodily harm to [victim's name]; or

c. intended to do an act which, in the circumstances known to the defendant, a reasonable person would have known created a plain and strong likelihood that death would result.[157]"

https://www.mass.gov/info-details/model-jury-instructions-on-homicide-v-murder-in-the-second-degree



They are saying after an argument, she intentionally reversed at high speed up to where she knew he had just got out of the car, knowing that that action created a plain and strong likelihood of death.

JMO

 

[Soulmagent]

2 witness saw KR alone in the SUV with a light on and now people are making up reasons to doubt what Ryan says.
Why would he notice?
Maybe he was parked outside the police house ,rolling up a blunt and was clocking who was around.

They have not proved anything yet.

 

[Forest_Wood]

Did Karen Read make two 3-point turns? It was said she made a 3-point turn after taking a wrong turn, resulting in her arriving at the intersection at the same time as Ryan Nagel. Are they claiming she made another 3-pt turn after dropping John off in front of 34 Fairview?

 

[Tortoise]

Evidence John was found (hit) where Karen last saw him. MOO

Clip 17 – 2.04.16

Defendant’s interview with ID Docuseries air date Jun 22, 2024

“I gave an interview with ABC with Matt Gutman, I think, I think this was who I gave the interview to, and I said, he asked why was I saying ‘could I have hit him, did I hit him’? and I said yeah my first thought was right I’d been out late I’d been drinking and he’s in the general vicinity of where I last saw him and he they talk about the left side of the property and the right as if it’s you know er Hammersmith Farms, it’s, it’s a postage stamp, it’s 50 feet, um so he’s in the front yard to the left of the front door and no one , no one’s coming out of the house, Jen was telling me nobody’s seen him, so I’m thinking Jesus was I starting to pull away and I ran over his foot? Like he’s he’s roughly where I left him so yeah when I found him I was thinking did I like clip him somewhere”

Clip 16

6.25.15

Defendant’s Interview with ID Docuseries April 13,2024

Let’s start at 34 Fairview, so who were you with and ..

I was with Jen McCabe and Kerry Roberts in Kerry Roberts’s Ford Explorer. And I’m in the back leaning over the front two seats, Kerry’s driving and Jen’s in the passenger seat. And uh I, I’ve described this to everyone so you’ve probably heard this before but John looked like a buffalo on the prairie, it was just a lawn and a heap that wasn’t a bush or a hydrant or a dog, it was, it was a weird shaped lump at that time in those elements. And I was looking to find him on the side of the road, I was expecting I’d find him, and the fear of what I was gonna see is the worst feeling I’ve ever experienced. The anticipation of what is a waiting .. was as extreme a feeling as the grief of realising what happened to him.

 

[Forest_Wood]

IMO I believe Karen might have been in a blackout at some point that night. A person can be walking and talking and driving a car like normal during a blackout, yet due to how a blackout affects memory, a person cannot get those memories back since they were never stored. I don't believe even Karen knows what occurred that night unfortunately and I think her asking, "Did I hit him, could I have hit him" might be a reflection of her simply not remembering what happened. I could also see her wondering if she might have clipped him as he came back to the vehicle without her realizing he had even returned. Night was dark, snow was falling, windows were closed, music was on, dome light was on, mind was occupied if he's lushing on some other girl ... and the next morning she's trying to figure it all out.
MOO

 

[sunshineray]

<RSBM>

The commonwealth isn't claiming she hit him intentionally. I've bolded the relevant portion below -


"In order to prove murder in the second degree, the Commonwealth must prove the following elements:[156]

1. The defendant caused the death of [victim's name].

2. The defendant:

a. intended to kill [victim's name]; or

b. intended to cause grievous bodily harm to [victim's name]; or

c. intended to do an act which, in the circumstances known to the defendant, a reasonable person would have known created a plain and strong likelihood that death would result.[157]"

https://www.mass.gov/info-details/model-jury-instructions-on-homicide-v-murder-in-the-second-degree



They are saying after an argument, she intentionally reversed at high speed up to where she knew he had just got out of the car, knowing that that action created a plain and strong likelihood of death.

JMO

Like I said, I don't believe she hit him intentionally, and in her drunken state her dramatic exit was just for show, not with the intent to cause him bodily harm. I think the manslaughter while intoxicated charge and leaving the scene are appropriate. I think even in her drunken state she knew she hit something, but just dismissed it could have been JO...until he didn't come home. That's when it started worrying her mind that she hit him. AJMO

 

[Warwick7]

I don't think any of the witnesses have testified to whether they saw or would have been able to see who was inside the front seats of the Lexus while they were parked some way behind it. Or that they were watching it constantly.

They only said they noticed Karen alone in the driver's seat when they passed by as they were leaving and the interior light was on, but their primary focus was towards watching Julie going back to the house, and Ryan even said the woman and the SUV itself obstructed his view of anything on the other side of the SUV.

I'm not sure that anyone can say because they didn't notice someone they weren't even looking for, outside a vehicle in the dark with a light inside the vehicle drawing attention inside, it means they weren't there, especially when their focus was also drawn elsewhere.

JMO

• Richard ‘Ricky’ D’Antuono drives his friend Ryan Nagel – Julie’s brother and another passenger to pick up Ryan’s sister, Julie at 34 Fairview. They encounter an SUV that travels ahead of them and parks in front of the house. The defense acknowledges the SUV is driven by Karen Read.
• Ryan Nagel says shortly after midnight he texts his sister that they are outside 34 Fairview. He observes only a female in the SUV parked in front of them. He sees the brake lights on, but did not see any damage to the car, did not see anyone on the lawn or anyone get out of the car.
• WATCH: Ryan Nagel: SUV Taillights Were Intact, Never Saw Person Lying On Lawn
• Julie Nagel comes out to the truck and talks to her brother for a few minutes, invites them in, they decline, she decides not to leave with them and goes back into the Albert Home.
• Heather Maxon who is also in the car with D’Antuono and Nagel says she observes a female driver and a male passenger before the SUV arrives at the house. But when D’Antuono drives away from the house, she observes only the female in the SUV.
• D’Antuono drives a Ford truck, he parks behind Read’s car. Both vehicles are facing the same direction. No one in the truck says they saw damage to the taillights, observe anyone exit the SUV, or sees the SUV drive in reverse and strike a pedestrian.

Day 10 of Trial. 5/13/24

MA v. Karen Read: Killer or Cover-Up Murder Trial

UPDATE: A mistrial was declared in the trial of Karen Read, accused in the death of her police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe.

www.courttv.com

According to testimony, Julie made them wait a while before she finally came out. So, their primary focus wasn't towards watching Julie going back to the house.

Point being, KR was seen alone by 3 witnesses. And her dome light was on. That would make it clear she was alone in the car.

As a matter of fact:

• Heather Maxon who is also in the car with D’Antuono and Nagel says she observes a female driver and a male passenger before the SUV arrives at the house. But when D’Antuono drives away from the house, she observes only the female in the SUV.

*** I edited to add the last information.

 

[lohrtabitha]

IMO I believe Karen might have been in a blackout at some point that night. A person can be walking and talking and driving a car like normal during a blackout, yet due to how a blackout affects memory, a person cannot get those memories back since they were never stored. I don't believe even Karen knows what occurred that night unfortunately and I think her asking, "Did I hit him, could I have hit him" might be a reflection of her simply not remembering what happened. I could also see her wondering if she might have clipped him as he came back to the vehicle without her realizing he had even returned. Night was dark, snow was falling, windows were closed, music was on, dome light was on, mind was occupied if he's lushing on some other girl ... and the next morning she's trying to figure it all out.
MOO

Yes and feelings aren't facts.

 

[jepop]

IMO I believe Karen might have been in a blackout at some point that night. A person can be walking and talking and driving a car like normal during a blackout, yet due to how a blackout affects memory, a person cannot get those memories back since they were never stored. I don't believe even Karen knows what occurred that night unfortunately and I think her asking, "Did I hit him, could I have hit him" might be a reflection of her simply not remembering what happened. I could also see her wondering if she might have clipped him as he came back to the vehicle without her realizing he had even returned. Night was dark, snow was falling, windows were closed, music was on, dome light was on, mind was occupied if he's lushing on some other girl ... and the next morning she's trying to figure it all out.
MOO

With all the confusion she was experiencing, including wondering about snow plows, I'm still wondering if she might have backed into Higgins' jeep/plow when leaving no. 34. If so, my theory would be that this caused some minimal tail light damage ( imo Proctor planted additional pieces after tampering with the tail light at Sally Port. Jmo the state of the tail light at 5.07am and the state of it at the Sally Port in coming days as photographed are not the same).

What KR says in Body in the Snow, or the other documentary, is not evidence that proves anything imo. I already know that the victim's body does not lie and neither do the natural laws of physics. JO's injuries cannot have been caused by a vehicle impact.jmo. The arm wounds are not congruent. Even without the expected evidence to come from qualified animal attack experts, many can already see that a tail light was not involved. Putting aside the impossible symmetry of the wounds, there is no way imo that his arm would not have been fractured and bruised. Jmo

Ebm, clarity.

 

[lohrtabitha]

• Richard ‘Ricky’ D’Antuono drives his friend Ryan Nagel – Julie’s brother and another passenger to pick up Ryan’s sister, Julie at 34 Fairview. They encounter an SUV that travels ahead of them and parks in front of the house. The defense acknowledges the SUV is driven by Karen Read.
• Ryan Nagel says shortly after midnight he texts his sister that they are outside 34 Fairview. He observes only a female in the SUV parked in front of them. He sees the brake lights on, but did not see any damage to the car, did not see anyone on the lawn or anyone get out of the car.
• WATCH: Ryan Nagel: SUV Taillights Were Intact, Never Saw Person Lying On Lawn
• Julie Nagel comes out to the truck and talks to her brother for a few minutes, invites them in, they decline, she decides not to leave with them and goes back into the Albert Home.
• Heather Maxon who is also in the car with D’Antuono and Nagel says she observes a female driver and a male passenger before the SUV arrives at the house. But when D’Antuono drives away from the house, she observes only the female in the SUV.
• D’Antuono drives a Ford truck, he parks behind Read’s car. Both vehicles are facing the same direction. No one in the truck says they saw damage to the taillights, observe anyone exit the SUV, or sees the SUV drive in reverse and strike a pedestrian.

Day 10 of Trial. 5/13/24

MA v. Karen Read: Killer or Cover-Up Murder Trial

UPDATE: A mistrial was declared in the trial of Karen Read, accused in the death of her police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe.

www.courttv.com

Bam! ! Great post Warwick. Also, when the crew is talking to Julie, John (in his dark clothing) could have easily walked up to house without being seen. All three in the truck were focused on Julie. Mo

 

[Forest_Wood]

The commonwealth isn't claiming she hit him intentionally.

Isn't 2nd Degree Murder intentional but without planning?

 

[sunshineray]

IMO I believe Karen might have been in a blackout at some point that night. A person can be walking and talking and driving a car like normal during a blackout, yet due to how a blackout affects memory, a person cannot get those memories back since they were never stored. I don't believe even Karen knows what occurred that night unfortunately and I think her asking, "Did I hit him, could I have hit him" might be a reflection of her simply not remembering what happened. I could also see her wondering if she might have clipped him as he came back to the vehicle without her realizing he had even returned. Night was dark, snow was falling, windows were closed, music was on, dome light was on, mind was occupied if he's lushing on some other girl ... and the next morning she's trying to figure it all out.
MOO

I agree with you except I believe it wasn't a total blackout and she did remember something and her feelings that were first expessed to JO's niece and then repeatedly at the scene, when JO was found, were from her memory of having hit something. MO

 

[Tortoise]

Like I said, I don't believe she hit him intentionally, and in her drunken state her dramatic exit was just for show, not with the intent to cause him bodily harm. I think the manslaughter while intoxicated charge and leaving the scene are appropriate. I think even in her drunken state she knew she hit something, but just dismissed it could have been JO...until he didn't come home. That's when it started worrying her mind that she hit him. AJMO

As the law states, murder 2 in Massachusetts doesn't require that she hit him intentionally or wanted to cause him any harm.

Her only proven intent must be to reverse the car. Which I believe they will show by how the car data shows she put her foot down for approx 70 feet. JMO

Hypothetically, if I went outside after an argument and started shooting a gun randomly, knowing that could kill a person, and a passing stranger got hit and killed, it's murder 2 without me intending to kill them. IMO

 

[Forest_Wood]

With all the confusion she was experiencing, including wondering about snow plows, I'm still wondering if she might have backed into Higgins' jeep/plow when leaving no. 34. If so, my theory would be that this caused some minimal tail light damage ( imo Proctor planted additional pieces after tampering with the tail light at Sally Port. Jmo the state of the tail light at 5.07am and the state of it at the Sally Port in coming days as photographed are not the same).

What KR says in Body in the Snow is not evidence that proves anything imo. I already know that the victim's body does not lie and neither do the natural laws of physics. JO's injuries cannot have been caused by a vehicle impact.jmo. The arm wounds are not congruent. Even without the expected evidence to come from qualified animal attack experts, many can already see that a tail light was not involved. Putting aside the impossible symmetry of the wounds, there is no way imo that his arm would not have been fractured and bruised. Jmo

That could have happened with his jeep and her taillight IMO. I too thought about her subliminally seeing a snowplow that night doing something, and very interesting you have reminded me of BH's plow on his jeep, which JMc and BH said was parked at the mailbox, but RN and friends say they did not see there. I have always thought that BH and his plow had something to do with this. The timing of BH leaving and JOK arriving always had me thinking they got into a confrontation outside and BH later pushed him up onto the grass with his plow, resulting in more injuries.
MOO

 

[sunshineray]

Yes and feelings aren't facts.

But a feeling with a descriptive memory attached can be. MO