Madeleine McCann: German Prisoner Identified as Suspect, #40

[Mex]

Could be, along with what he sees as back-up 'evidence' from CB's 'Buchs' which seem to form some part of the evidence held by the BKA. It seems a very flimsy and threadbare premise for the abduction & murder claims made though.

Be interesting to see where the two unknown victims/unknown dates on the current charge sheet go. Nothing but word of mouth from a pair of criminal associates of CB, but they've nevertheless obviously met enough potentially chargeable criteria for a judge to give the go-ahead to take them to trial.

As no doubt the situation with the MM inquiry - the requirement for admissible evidence is paramount.

Prosecutors and police take great pains to get the best evidence possible and they have obviously been very successful in doing so in the horrible rape cases you mention as well as DM's aggravated torture and rape for which CB was convicted in 2019.

Evidence gathering is no easy task when as in MM's disappearance there is such a gap between the crime and the punishment.
Fortunately for the sake of justice the German investigators seem to be particularly adept at fulfilling the task.
My opinion

 

[mrjitty]

Could be, along with what he sees as back-up 'evidence' from CB's 'Buchs' which seem to form some part of the evidence held by the BKA. It seems a very flimsy and threadbare premise for the abduction & murder claims made though.

Be interesting to see where the two unknown victims/unknown dates on the current charge sheet go. Nothing but word of mouth from a pair of criminal associates of CB, but they've nevertheless obviously met enough potentially chargeable criteria for a judge to give the go-ahead to take them to trial.

I'm really perplexed how the BBC was reporting on evidence, briefed from the police, which is digital evidence they don't have and may not even exist.

I am guessing this meets code, because it came from official sources.

But bizarre to my mind.

 

[frank-cole]

HCW said
, “… maybe we have photos, maybe we have videos… or chats or documents.”

Those are 4 examples of non-forensic material evidence. HCW has said they have material evidence but it isn’t forensic. I expect they’ll have more than 1 type of that evidence. I think only pictures & videos would make them ‘100% certain’. Based on the their statements it’s very simple to conclude what evidence they likely have. My opinion

 

[frank-cole]

As no doubt the situation with the MM inquiry - the requirement for admissible evidence is paramount.

Prosecutors and police take great pains to get the best evidence possible and they have obviously been very successful in doing so in the horrible rape cases you mention as well as DM's aggravated torture and rape for which CB was convicted in 2019.

Evidence gathering is no easy task when as in MM's disappearance there is such a gap between the crime and the punishment.
Fortunately for the sake of justice the German investigators seem to be particularly adept at fulfilling the task.
My opinion

Well said

They arrested a German man in Italy for crimes he comitted in Portugal. They’ve investigated him from Germany for crimes against English, American, Portuguese, Irish, Italian & German people.
The majority of these cases are well over a decade old.
So far they’ve got 1 conviction, 5 charges & concrete evidence in the biggest missing person case in history.

Investigating a serial offender must be challenging. It’s even more complicated when the victims are of many different nationalities & the crimes are old, unsolved & happened in another country.

The Germans have shown remarkable competence to get this far. Apparently the files passed to FF were substantial, imo the credibility of their cases won’t, in reality, be based on small threads of open source information. My opinion

 

[RichardKimble]

Those are 4 examples of non-forensic material evidence. HCW has said they have material evidence but it isn’t forensic. I expect they’ll have more than 1 type of that evidence. I think only pictures & videos would make them ‘100% certain’. Based on the their statements it’s very simple to conclude what evidence they likely have. My opinion

Guess we'll know sometime next year, there again possibly not.

 

[frank-cole]

Guess we'll know sometime next year, they’re again possibly not.

it’ll take time & there’s no rush. The majority of people who have issues with the German case are very patient with their 16 y/o theory.

 

[RichardKimble]

it’ll take time & there’s no rush. The majority of people who have issues with the German case are very patient with their 16 y/o theory.

If the Germans are liaising with the brits then it's not a leap to suggest everything pertaining to MM stored on the HOLMES is available, so that would suggest imo that everything could be crossed referenced pretty quickly, CB is almost another case outwith the previous investigation.So have the Germans started afresh from the very beginning or tuned in where OG have basically left off.

 

[Mex]

If the Germans are liaising with the brits then it's not a leap to suggest everything pertaining to MM stored on the HOLMES is available, so that would suggest imo that everything could be crossed referenced pretty quickly, CB is almost another case outwith the previous investigation.So have the Germans started afresh from the very beginning or tuned in where OG have basically left off.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

HOLMES 2 (Home Office Large Major Enquiry System) is an information technology system that is predominantly used by UK police forces for the investigation of major incidents such as serial murders and high value frauds.
The system is a single application which was developed by Unisys and McDonnell Douglas Information Systems (in competition, not co-operation) for the Police Information Technology Organisation under a private finance initiative. It provides total compatibility and consistency between all the police forces of England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland, as well as the Royal Military Police. The name of the system is a reference to the fictional Arthur Conan Doyle private detective character Sherlock Holmes.

HOLMES 2 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

HOLMES is a big computer. i would surmise the German police use similar or even superior technology; particularly as they are a federal state much as described above as usage for HOLMES.
I think it highly probable that German AI might be used to communicate with British AI

• we know there has been communication and latterly cooperation and liaison between the nations' investigators

Well spotted by you that they might be doing all in their power to leave no stone unturned.
My opinion

 

[frank-cole]

If the Germans are liaising with the brits then it's not a leap to suggest everything pertaining to MM stored on the HOLMES is available, so that would suggest imo that everything could be crossed referenced pretty quickly, CB is almost another case outwith the previous investigation.So have the Germans started afresh from the very beginning or tuned in where OG have basically left off.

Similar systems perhaps, but one has access to all of the evidence & the other does not.

The Germans are ahead of the other LEA’s. If they weren’t they wouldn’t have uncovered the concrete evidence.

 

[RichardKimble]

Similar systems perhaps, but one has access to all of the evidence & the other does not.

The Germans are ahead of the other LEA’s. If they weren’t they wouldn’t have uncovered the concrete evidence.

It could be argued with no charges they are but mere words, possibly Raac concrete.

 

[frank-cole]

It could be argued with no charges they are but mere words, possibly Raac concrete.

Fair point. IMO this case is not really a matter of opinion anymore. IMO the reason they’ve clearly stated they have concrete evidence is because the have concrete evidence. There’s no sensible argument to the contrary. My opinion

 

[Mex]

If the Germans are liaising with the brits then it's not a leap to suggest everything pertaining to MM stored on the HOLMES is available, so that would suggest imo that everything could be crossed referenced pretty quickly, CB is almost another case outwith the previous investigation.So have the Germans started afresh from the very beginning or tuned in where OG have basically left off.

Actually I think you have hit the nail on the head when you say "CB is almost another case'".

CB is another case entirely. And it is a stand alone one.

CB is a sex offender who never figured as a suspect in the 2007 MM investigation.
Having been convicted as an abuser and a presence in Luz - he most certainly should have been.

CB came to German police attention probably at the time of the search in Germany for another missing child called Germany's MM.
That is unfinished business too and must have raised an electronic response when CB's name was reported to German police in 2017.

Snip
Now, it is believed that police investigated Brueckner, 43, in February 2016 over the disappearance of Inga, according to Saxony-Anhalt newspaper Volksstimme.

Detectives reportedly discovered a device at his home containing child and it has been said he had no alibi for the day in question when Inga went missing.

Also, one day before Inga's disappearance, he was at the wheel of a car in a parking accident at an autobahn service station in Helmstedt 55 miles from where Inga lived.

But it appears no further action was taken against him in relation to Inga, which has been questioned by lawyer Petra Kullmei, who represents the girl's mother.

Police link jailed paedophile to abduction of girl aged five in 2015

Prosecutors have re-opened the investigation into whether Christian Brueckner abducted Inga Gehricke after she vanished in Saxony-Anhalt during a family outing in 2015.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[frank-cole]

Actually I think you have hit the nail on the head when you say "CB is almost another case'".

CB is another case entirely. And it is a stand alone one.

CB is a sex offender who never figured as a suspect in the 2007 MM investigation.
Having been convicted as an abuser and a presence in Luz - he most certainly should have been.

CB came to German police attention probably at the time of the search in Germany for another missing child called Germany's MM.
That is unfinished business too and must have raised an electronic response when CB's name was reported to German police in 2017.

Snip
Now, it is believed that police investigated Brueckner, 43, in February 2016 over the disappearance of Inga, according to Saxony-Anhalt newspaper Volksstimme.

Detectives reportedly discovered a device at his home containing child *advertiser censored* and it has been said he had no alibi for the day in question when Inga went missing.

Also, one day before Inga's disappearance, he was at the wheel of a car in a parking accident at an autobahn service station in Helmstedt 55 miles from where Inga lived.

But it appears no further action was taken against him in relation to Inga, which has been questioned by lawyer Petra Kullmei, who represents the girl's mother.

Police link jailed paedophile to abduction of girl aged five in 2015

Prosecutors have re-opened the investigation into whether Christian Brueckner abducted Inga Gehricke after she vanished in Saxony-Anhalt during a family outing in 2015.

www.dailymail.co.uk

It would certainly be an unsettling ‘coincidence’ should CB have also been in close proximity to Inge. I think the prosecutors current lack of involvement in Inge’s case speaks volumes about their involvement in the MM case.

The prosecutors aren’t currently running an investigation against CB in Inge’s case because they have no evidence CB committed the crime.

The prosecutors are actively running an investigation against CB in MM’s case because they have evidence CB comitted the crime.

That’s why I don’t think there’s any plausible theory or any constructed scenario that points to CB not being responsible for MM’s disappearance.

The prosecutors clearly don’t investigate crimes they don’t have evidence for, such as Inge’s disappearance.
Singular threads of detail such as a CB being in the area, a car sighting & his criminal history obviously isn’t reason for prosecutors to get involved in missing children cases because if it was they’d be involved in Inge’s case. That means they’ll have far more in the MM case because if they didn’t they wouldn’t be running an active investigation. My opinion

 

[Mex]

It would certainly be an unsettling ‘coincidence’ should CB have also been in close proximity to Inge. I think the prosecutors current lack of involvement in Inge’s case speaks volumes about their involvement in the MM case.

The prosecutors aren’t currently running an investigation against CB in Inge’s case because they have no evidence CB committed the crime.

The prosecutors are actively running an investigation against CB in MM’s case because they have evidence CB comitted the crime.

That’s why I don’t think there’s any plausible theory or any constructed scenario that points to CB not being responsible for MM’s disappearance.

The prosecutors clearly don’t investigate crimes they don’t have evidence for, such as Inge’s disappearance.
Singular threads of detail such as a CB being in the area, a car sighting & his criminal history obviously isn’t reason for prosecutors to get involved in missing children cases because if it was they’d be involved in Inge’s case. That means they’ll have far more in the MM case because if they didn’t they wouldn’t be running an active investigation. My opinion

Agreed -MM's is a complex case with much of the evidence gone or forgotten because of the passage of time.
As far as evidence goes in any investigation following a particular line of inquiry

• when it is there it will be investigated and followed to its conclusion ... which is what we are watching happen in MM's case
• if there is insufficient or none to justify further investigation that is as far as investigators can take it ... which is what happened in Inge's case as far as CB is concerned

Detectives don't have time or permissions to hang about with a defunct case which is going nowhere. They or their bosses would be unable to justify that.
As long as MM's case remains open and active with detectives and forensic scientists still working on it and awaiting results it indicates it is a case still able to reach a viable conclusion.

To suggest otherwise I find rather insulting to investigators demonstrably doing what most said is an impossible task.
My opinion

Of course a case can't be built on evidence which can't be linked as you have said; it all has to tie into making a complete picture of events.

 

[Anxala]

I'm really perplexed how the BBC was reporting on evidence, briefed from the police, which is digital evidence they don't have and may not even exist.

I am guessing this meets code, because it came from official sources.

But bizarre to my mind.

Just another bizarre to add to the pile. All in, it's the strangest and most unedifying case I've ever followed.

 

[RichardKimble]

Fair point. IMO this case is not really a matter of opinion anymore. IMO the reason they’ve clearly stated they have concrete evidence is because the have concrete evidence. There’s no sensible argument to the contrary. My opinion

Within the parameters of the MM case it is opinion, until or charges are laid that's where its at, take exit from 5a, what was the manner, that's all opinion.Woke and wandered or taken out, neither are supported by the crime scene evidence except maybe the open patio door in which case either scenario cannot be ruled out imo.
But it can be argued until the cows come home which method is the more likely without any substantial evidence to go either way, this is why if HCW can produce the remains and positively link CB to them then 5a will have no bearing, but HCW needs CB to be at or near 5a this is why the caller is important.

 

[frank-cole]

Within the parameters of the MM case it is opinion, until or charges are laid that's where its at, take exit from 5a, what was the manner, that's all opinion.Woke and wandered or taken out, neither are supported by the crime scene evidence except maybe the open patio door in which case either scenario cannot be ruled out imo.
But it can be argued until the cows come home which method is the more likely without any substantial evidence to go either way, this is why if HCW can produce the remains and positively link CB to them then 5a will have no bearing, but HCW needs CB to be at or near 5a this is why the caller is important.

Okay thanks. As I eluded to, In reality - I don’t think this case is really a matter of opinion anymore. The case won’t hinge on the caller because there are other ways they can confirm CB’s presence at the scene, hence the appeal.

I highly doubt that they’ll need to place CB in 5a. Some factions of social media think they’ll need to but I doubt a real world court will.

Judging by what you’ve said about HCW producing ‘remains’, am I right in assuming that you’ll dismiss any & all other types of evidence against CB?

 

[Mex]

Within the parameters of the MM case it is opinion, until or charges are laid that's where its at, take exit from 5a, what was the manner, that's all opinion.Woke and wandered or taken out, neither are supported by the crime scene evidence except maybe the open patio door in which case either scenario cannot be ruled out imo.
But it can be argued until the cows come home which method is the more likely without any substantial evidence to go either way, this is why if HCW can produce the remains and positively link CB to them then 5a will have no bearing, but HCW needs CB to be at or near 5a this is why the caller is important.

The manner of MM's exit from the apartment is a bit of an irrelevance at this remove.

Evidence of what became of her subsequently is of importance as is evidence pointing to the identity of whoever was responsible for the outrage perpetrated against this child.

The evidence has resulted in a known sexual abuser and violent rapist becoming the prime suspect in her murder.
That will be tested by the law if there is enough evidence to charge him and take him to court.

MM had rights too which the PJ have apologised for abrogating from 2007 till fairly recently. Hopefully the present investigation will offset past errors.
My opinion

 

[Consider Dudley]

It would certainly be an unsettling ‘coincidence’ should CB have also been in close proximity to Inge. I think the prosecutors current lack of involvement in Inge’s case speaks volumes about their involvement in the MM case.

The prosecutors aren’t currently running an investigation against CB in Inge’s case because they have no evidence CB committed the crime.

The prosecutors are actively running an investigation against CB in MM’s case because they have evidence CB comitted the crime.

That’s why I don’t think there’s any plausible theory or any constructed scenario that points to CB not being responsible for MM’s disappearance.

The prosecutors clearly don’t investigate crimes they don’t have evidence for, such as Inge’s disappearance.
Singular threads of detail such as a CB being in the area, a car sighting & his criminal history obviously isn’t reason for prosecutors to get involved in missing children cases because if it was they’d be involved in Inge’s case. That means they’ll have far more in the MM case because if they didn’t they wouldn’t be running an active investigation. My opinion

Good point re: Inge - if the police were intent on making this guy a patsy for Madeleine’s death without any solid evidence then they‘d surely not have ruled him out of involvement in Inge’s disappearance either on the same basis. Some seem to believe that actually having evidence against their suspect doesn’t really matter to the Germans which makes one wonder why they don’t do him for all other possible missing children crimes within a 100 miles of his known location at any given time just for the sheer hell of it.

 

[RichardKimble]

Okay thanks. As I eluded to, In reality - I don’t think this case is really a matter of opinion anymore. The case won’t hinge on the caller because there are other ways they can confirm CB’s presence at the scene, hence the appeal.

I highly doubt that they’ll need to place CB in 5a. Some factions of social media think they’ll need to but I doubt a real world court will.

Judging by what you’ve said about HCW producing ‘remains’, am I right in assuming that you’ll dismiss any & all other types of evidence against CB?

Bit of a double edged sword me thinks, I'm wondering if HCW considers the legal team of CB in any regard, if the testimony of CBs previous alleged mates is called into question then its possible that the MM case allegedly initially based on the evidence of them is called into question.IMO without remains its likely dead in the water.
What ever HCW has is important, but maybe not has important of what he's not got.