Found Deceased Malaysia - Nora Quoirin, 15, from UK, special needs, missing on vacation, Seremban, 4 Aug 2019 #6

[Ruthbullock]

I'm afraid that French, Irish and British police wouldn't have blown the whistle at all. They were guests in Malaysia and diplomacy would have been the ultimate priority. Unfortunately.
I know it sounds harsh, but it has happened before.

I did think that, but I can also think of at least three high profile cases recently where an innocent death has been prioritised over diplomatic relations. Madeline, Harry Dunn and Katrice Lee and I’m sure there are many more less publicised cases as well. So whilst I agree about diplomatic relations, but it’s not an impossible or even that far fetched assumption if it was warranted.

 

[insearchoflight]

Have you listened to her mum's testimony?

Yes. Such a perplexing case. On one hand it seems so unlikely she’d be able to venture that far unassisted and in the condition her feet were. On the other hand, what was the motive for taking her, since she was found not murdered, not assaulted?

The shamans and monks are another very interesting aspect.

In this case is seems there is no “most likely” because every option seems unlikely.

 

[Kittybunny]

Yes. Such a perplexing case. On one hand it seems so unlikely she’d be able to venture that far unassisted and in the condition her feet were. On the other hand, what was the motive for taking her, since she was found not murdered, not assaulted?

The shamans and monks are another very interesting aspect.

In this case is seems there is no “most likely” because every option seems unlikely.

Agree. I think we cannot underestimate the human survival instinct. It has little or nothing to do with intelligence or capabilities in normal circumstances. The rules do not apply. I don't know how many cases I've followed here of toddlers, autistic children, etc., who were found well outside both the search radius and the timeframe in which they were expected or predicted. Parents who say my child couldn't have...done this, done that, and yet, somehow they did. Nora clearly had some understanding of the world around her. How could she play games, get around by herself, if she did not? She ate, she drank, I'm sure she understood the concept of water.

I also keep seeing the condition of her feet as clear indication she did not walk to where she was found. I remember early on people with experience in tropical forests and that sort of terrain saying the ground was relatively soft, Why did she have to have cuts on her feet? If she had bruises, perhaps from the first few days, by the time she was found they may have largely disappeared. She did not, at the end of the day, walk that far.

And finally...motive. No signs of homicide, no sexual assault. I have yet to see any satisfactory explanation of why Nora was taken and for what reason. Now, if there was homicide or sexual assault, totally different story.

I remain in the "extremely tragic unavoidable and unforeseeable circumstances" being the cause of Nora's death. My heart aches for her family, and in their position I would perhaps never give up trying to find answers, but I just don't believe there was an abduction here.

 

[kittythehare]

I did think that, but I can also think of at least three high profile cases recently where an innocent death has been prioritised over diplomatic relations. Madeline, Harry Dunn and Katrice Lee and I’m sure there are many more less publicised cases as well. So whilst I agree about diplomatic relations, but it’s not an impossible or even that far fetched assumption if it was warranted.

Nora's mum actually confirmed they were very limited in what they could do [ME2.54DIA=youtube]ASZrFxZQg-g[/MEDIA]

edited to remove time

 

[kittythehare]

Agree. I think we cannot underestimate the human survival instinct. It has little or nothing to do with intelligence or capabilities in normal circumstances. The rules do not apply. I don't know how many cases I've followed here of toddlers, autistic children, etc., who were found well outside both the search radius and the timeframe in which they were expected or predicted. Parents who say my child couldn't have...done this, done that, and yet, somehow they did. Nora clearly had some understanding of the world around her. How could she play games, get around by herself, if she did not? She ate, she drank, I'm sure she understood the concept of water.

I also keep seeing the condition of her feet as clear indication she did not walk to where she was found. I remember early on people with experience in tropical forests and that sort of terrain saying the ground was relatively soft, Why did she have to have cuts on her feet? If she had bruises, perhaps from the first few days, by the time she was found they may have largely disappeared. She did not, at the end of the day, walk that far.

And finally...motive. No signs of homicide, no sexual assault. I have yet to see any satisfactory explanation of why Nora was taken and for what reason. Now, if there was homicide or sexual assault, totally different story.

I remain in the "extremely tragic unavoidable and unforeseeable circumstances" being the cause of Nora's death. My heart aches for her family, and in their position I would perhaps never give up trying to find answers, but I just don't believe there was an abduction here.

The British lawyer made a point of stating that lack of evidence of sexual assault is not the same as absence of sexual assault. I understand the British Forensic Expert will testify in more detail about that.

Time 2.54.

 

[Ruthbullock]

The British lawyer made a point of stating that lack of evidence of sexual assault is not the same as absence of sexual assault. I understand the British Forensic Expert will testify in more detail about that.

Time 2.54.

She is absolutely right. I would have thought though there would be some evidence of being held, carried, restrained - unless she walked out- I think the medical testimony is going to be interesting. The fact she fell on day one and bruised immediately suggests she is very prone to bruising easily and instantly (I’m one of those people, and bruise relatively quickly at the slightest knock, but most people take a good 12-24 hours before a bruise starts appearing). It will also be interesting to see if that bruising is mentioned in the autopsy as bruises can give rough time estimates due to colouring and cease altering after death.

 

[Officer Dibble]

It’s a complete guess, but the bloodstains in the bathroom may have been actually found in the sunken bath area, rather than the shower room or separate toilet.

That was my thinking.

 

[Ruthbullock]

British police investigate death of Nora Quoirin as family seeks answers | Metro News
Both British and French police investigated after the event and created reports.

 

[Officer Dibble]

I haven’t watched that particular section @kittythehare, but their jubilance, while not appropriate, makes sense knowing that they represent the Dusan Resort. The Quoirins have sued the resort. So the focus of the attorneys is on gathering evidence proving that even if the window locked properly, Nora had the ability to open it. So I assume they figure she could if she could manage an airplane toilet door lock.

I thought this was a second inquest requested by Nora’s parents to try to get more understanding of what could have happened to Nora. But I sensed an adversarial quality to the questioning too. Whether that is due to a defensive posture by LE or the lawsuit, it’s hard to tell. Probably both. I agree that Nora’s mother handled herself admirably. I haven’t watched her father’s testimony yet.

While some of us (and I include myself) question the Quoirin’s choice of this particular resort, Nora sleeping upstairs at the top of a difficult staircase, whether she could have found the bathroom, and the plan to take a 4-6 hour hike, none of this really is relevant to her disappearance IMO. Her parents knew her best and they didn’t see a problem for Nora with any of these issues. I really don’t think they seem irresponsible, even though they made choices I wouldn’t make. And yet, somehow Nora disappeared for 10 days and was found dead in a place she could not have reached on her own, especially barefoot...her feet showing no real signs of injury.

So I agree with the Quoirins that this is a criminal case. I don’t think Nora was targeted. I do think it’s possible the Quoirins were targeted by an opportunistic local burglar who knew they had just arrived and would probably sleep deeply. Traveling from London would indicate that they had money, so perhaps it was hoped that they left something valuable lying around in the main living area. Could Nora have been in the bathroom when the burglar(s) entered and encountered him/her/or them when she came out? She would have frozen and looked down, as she usually did, but the burglar(s) couldn’t know that she probably wouldn’t be able to tell her parents she had seen them, let alone identify them. So a simple burglary could have turned into a kidnapping, Nora being carried away without protest.

I have long believed that she was hidden somewhere secluded and uninjured until she died. The hypothetical burglar(s) now had to figure out what to do with her. I doubt her death was their intention, but what does one do with a special needs young girl? Do you ask the local Shaman for advice? Is he bound to secrecy like a Catholic priest? In the meantime, is Nora not being fed or refusing to eat? In any case, she died 2-3 days before she was found. Didn’t the Shaman predict she would be found soon? And she was. I don’t necessarily believe this was because he had special intuition or spiritual insight. He may have known that she would be placed by the one(s) who took her where she could be found, perhaps upon his advice. I know nothing about the local culture and beliefs, so I don’t mean to offend. I think something equally likely could happen in Western society in similar circumstances.

That’s the best theory my overactive imagination can come up with to explain Nora’s disappearance and uninjured discovery. I’m certainly open to other opinions and fact corrections.
JMO MOO

I'm nodding in agreement to this as have had similar thoughts especially re the Shamen situation. JMO

 

[Officer Dibble]

I agree, but I’m surprised they didn’t fight for an impartial paediatrician or teacher to testify as to her physical and social capabilities, or there counsel request written evidence to be submitted to support them. I feel that would have added more weight to the testimony, the Malaysian authorities have always questioned Noras abilities and they will have been prepared for being questioned in depth over this. Her physical abilities are the parents basis for her being abducted - there doesn’t appear to be any other evidence at all to suggest an abduction (I’m not saying it wasn’t an abduction, merely they would want to present as strong a case as possible)

BBM: Again I agree with you. Its all coming purely from the parents (mostly mother's) perspective only. JMO

 

[kittythehare]

She is absolutely right. I would have thought though there would be some evidence of being held, carried, restrained - unless she walked out- I think the medical testimony is going to be interesting. The fact she fell on day one and bruised immediately suggests she is very prone to bruising easily and instantly (I’m one of those people, and bruise relatively quickly at the slightest knock, but most people take a good 12-24 hours before a bruise starts appearing). It will also be interesting to see if that bruising is mentioned in the autopsy as bruises can give rough time estimates due to colouring and cease altering after death.

Bruising from original fall may no longer be visible 10 days later.
It's such a shame that the conditions her body lay were so very unsuitable for preservation purposes. However I've seen cases where body condition had deteriorated far more and a good autopsy was still possible.
I wonder whether the estimated time of death will have altered from original pm?
It is my hope that it is a very conclusive and thorough autopsy.
I'm listening to parents' testimonies again today.. Her mother's voice is very easy listening. I'm also googling child abduction in Malaysia. Quite common. More than I knew. child kidnapping in malaysia 2019 - بحث Google

I'm getting closer to a sense that it's likely local, if an abduction did actually occur.

the children had been approached at the airport immediately after their dad went to meet mother. A man asked them where they had come from, after saying 'hello' The children did not respond. I searched last night and whereas there were lots of reports of the approach, I'm not clear whether he was ever actually identified by the police though they were aware of the approach.
I'm having less luck finding exact spiritual or religious rationale for 'spiritual' child offerings to deities.
Malaysia is difficult to penetrate. If it was US and associated with a particular religion , we'd find it in 5 minutes... I feel there is something there, I just cannot locate it.. Specifically names of spiritual movements who hold these beliefs , their location geographically in relation to the resort and membership lists with addresses and occupations and whether any had previously been connected to resort. Seriously! (I haven't a hope, but will trudge on nonetheless. Sad, I know)

 

[kittythehare]

British police investigate death of Nora Quoirin as family seeks answers | Metro News
Both British and French police investigated after the event and created reports.

I wonder if their reports will ever be made public?

 

[Ruthbullock]

I wonder if their reports will ever be made public?

Who knows, but it does state in the article neither found fault with the investigation and once the case was closed they did look more closely at the abduction theory and window.the report written by the french police was standard practice- again I think if anything untoward was found, they would have presented the evidence at this inquest.

 

[Ruthbullock]

https://amp.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/...nora-quoirin-postmortem-reports-38408943.html
Irish and french police were at the post mortem. Irish police did not request a second autopsy (implying that they could have done if they were dissatisfied) and french police were more than happy with the original post mortem.

 

[kittythehare]

https://amp.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/...nora-quoirin-postmortem-reports-38408943.html
Irish and french police were at the post mortem. Irish police did not request a second autopsy (implying that they could have done if they were dissatisfied) and french police were more than happy with the original post mortem.

Dated 16 August.
The Quorin family lawyer, Charles Morel, said while the family are satisfied with the work of Malaysian police, people should be "cautious" about the first interpretation of the post-mortem results.

He said no avenue of what happened to Nora has been "excluded", including a criminal investigation
Police are not pathologists and it seems , if I'm reading it right that UK pathologists did not reach same conclusions.. We'll have to wait it out.
The Court has now been alerted that new findings are likely to be presented.

 

[Lilibet]

The Quoirins are the experts on their daughter's condition. They said she couldn't do it, they stated the investigation was flawed , there is no evidence to suggest they were lying or in need of an independent 'doctor or expert' to testify to Nora's condition.

I think it’s possible for us to believe what the Quoirins say about Nora’s condition and also think it would have been wise of them to enlist the testimony of a teacher or doctor who knew Nora and could independently verify Nora’s condition. It’s always been clear that LE in Malaysia are convinced Nora could have managed to walk in the jungle until she died. I’m not sure they would ever be convinced otherwise because it would reflect badly on their investigation. But if I were the Quoirins, I’d certainly want independent testimony in the inquest record supporting what the Quoirins are saying.
JMO

 

[Ruthbullock]

French MPs blast Malaysian authorities for their handling of Nora Quoirin case
It gives no specifics, just a general article about how disgruntled the french were and were very upfront with the Malaysian judiciary.

 

[kittythehare]

I think it’s possible for us to believe what the Quoirins say about Nora’s condition and also think it would have been wise of them to enlist the testimony of a teacher or doctor who knew Nora and could independently verify Nora’s condition. It’s always been clear that LE in Malaysia are convinced Nora could have managed to walk in the jungle until she died. I’m not sure they would ever be convinced otherwise because it would reflect badly on their investigation. But if I were the Quoirins, I’d certainly want independent testimony in the inquest record supporting what the Quoirins are saying.
JMO

I hear you.
I wonder whether any such evidence was either requested or submitted already/
62 or 64 witnesses listed to testify.
That is a lot.

 

[Lilibet]

I hear you.
I wonder whether any such evidence was either requested or submitted already/
62 or 64 witnesses listed to testify.
That is a lot.

That certainly is a lot of witnesses left. Here’s hoping the Quoirins are (or were already) able to have a couple of experts who knew Nora support their testimony. This inquest seems so adversarial IMO.

 

[Chiatos]

I think it’s possible for us to believe what the Quoirins say about Nora’s condition and also think it would have been wise of them to enlist the testimony of a teacher or doctor who knew Nora and could independently verify Nora’s condition. It’s always been clear that LE in Malaysia are convinced Nora could have managed to walk in the jungle until she died. I’m not sure they would ever be convinced otherwise because it would reflect badly on their investigation. But if I were the Quoirins, I’d certainly want independent testimony in the inquest record supporting what the Quoirins are saying.
JMO

I agree an expert should testify. I hope there will be one.
Or perhaps even show the coroner some film material demonstrating Nora's motorial limitations.