Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #12

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  • #121
How were they watching this movie if she wasn't there? How do we know she wasn't there? I think I'd read something like that before in some cell records, but I hadn't been emersed enough in the case to understand what it meant. So could you clarify now where the cell tower said she was when PL texted?

Ah, yes, wasn't considering Amelie starting at 6:30. I'm a bit rusty on my timeline so I see I'll have to reassess some of this when I have a moment.

ETA: It appears this is one of those aspects I've glossed over in the past and taken at face value the cell phone pinging somewhere other than Raf's when Patrick sent her the message. But as we know, the pinging was incorrect when it came to Patrick's phone placing him at the cottage when he was actually at his bar. Amanda does claim she was at the cottage when the message was sent. Apparently, this was brought up in court but never resolved. This is something I need to look into further...
 
  • #122
Where was she? I thought they'd been together since 4pm when they left the cottage.

And how long had she and Rs not been together since they left the cottage?

There seems to be no cooking and movie watching going on together in this case. And if she wasn't there prior to 835pm, then they most likely did not eat dinner yet.

Also, they had just eaten at the cottage, right? while FR was there. I guess they could have been hungry again already, though.
 
  • #123
Ah, yes, wasn't considering Amelie starting at 6:30. I'm a bit rusty on my timeline so I see I'll have to reassess some of this when I have a moment.

ETA: It appears this is one of those aspects I've glossed over in the past and taken at face value the cell phone pinging somewhere other than Raf's when Patrick sent her the message. But as we know, the pinging was incorrect when it came to Patrick's phone placing him at the cottage when he was actually at his bar. Amanda does claim she was at the cottage when the message was sent. Apparently, this was brought up in court but never resolved. This is something I need to look into further...

You mean she was at RS when she sent her message, not at the cottage, right? If she was at the cottage, the defense could be toast. :)
 
  • #124
Here's what the MOTR says about AK's phones:

− 20:18:12: Amanda receives the SMS sent to her by Patrick Lumumba, which let her off from having to go to work at the ‚Le Chic‛ pub on the evening of 1 November. At the time of reception the phone connected to the cell on Via dell’Aquila 5-Torre dell’Acquedotto sector 3, whose signal does not reach Raffaele Sollecito’s house. The young woman was therefore far [i.e. absent] from Corso Garibaldi 30 when the SMS reached her, as she was walking in an area which was shown to be served by the Via dell’Aquila 5-Torre dell’Acquedotto sector 3 cell. This point of her route could correspond to Via U. Rocchi, to Piazza Cavallotti, to Piazza IV Novembre, bearing in mind that Lumumba’s pub is located in Via Alessi, and that Amanda Knox would have had to travel along the above-mentioned roads and the piazza in order to reach the pub
− 20.35.48 Amanda sent an SMS in reply to Patrick, at No. 338-7195723; the message was sent when the young woman’s mobile phone was in Corso Garibaldi 30 or in the immediate neighbourhood. The cell used, in fact, was that of Via Berardi sector 7


page 322

From this, I believe she had to work earlier. where is the source that she had to be in at 10pm? maybe she had to be in at 830pm.

It's troubling me that I can't seem to understand where these two were from between when they left the cottage at about 5pm up till this text message.
 
  • #125
Here's what the MOTR says about AK's phones:

− 20:18:12: Amanda receives the SMS sent to her by Patrick Lumumba, which let her off from having to go to work at the ‚Le Chic‛ pub on the evening of 1 November. At the time of reception the phone connected to the cell on Via dell’Aquila 5-Torre dell’Acquedotto sector 3, whose signal does not reach Raffaele Sollecito’s house. The young woman was therefore far [i.e. absent] from Corso Garibaldi 30 when the SMS reached her, as she was walking in an area which was shown to be served by the Via dell’Aquila 5-Torre dell’Acquedotto sector 3 cell. This point of her route could correspond to Via U. Rocchi, to Piazza Cavallotti, to Piazza IV Novembre, bearing in mind that Lumumba’s pub is located in Via Alessi, and that Amanda Knox would have had to travel along the above-mentioned roads and the piazza in order to reach the pub
− 20.35.48 Amanda sent an SMS in reply to Patrick, at No. 338-7195723; the message was sent when the young woman’s mobile phone was in Corso Garibaldi 30 or in the immediate neighbourhood. The cell used, in fact, was that of Via Berardi sector 7


page 322

From this, I believe she had to work earlier. where is the source that she had to be in at 10pm? maybe she had to be in at 830pm.

It's troubling me that I can't seem to understand where these two were from between when they left the cottage at about 5pm up till this text message.
True, I don't recall hearing where they were earlier either, although they say they had seen Meredith that day at noon, IIRC.
 
  • #126
I tried to find the posts discussing it in better detail but can't (maybe the thread is on hold) ... what I remember most about the weird pings and "goodnight" text is Patrick (falsely) confessing to something he didn't do...

because of the ping?, the police insisted he was in the cottage area and for some reason accused him of buying a different sim card, switching cell phones (something like that) He denied it ... however during the intense interrogation, questioning etc., Patrick broke down and said he switched (and he didn't!)

Before any of this was ironed out, Patrick was released.


ETA: From Perugia Shock:

Frank and Patrick interview:
(Patrick)"I have a Vodafone SIM. It doesn't "work" in the bar and I always leave it here, you see, just here. It's the only place where it "works" a little bit. That evening my cellphone was here. I don't know how it could have hooked the cell of via S.Antonio. Now that you ask me, I have to remember to ask my lawyers because it's really a mystery for me.​

This is what Frank says after talking to Patrick's lawyer:
A technical explanation of his sim hooking the cell of via S.Antonio is kindly provided to me by his lawyer. Patrick and Amanda exchanged their sms while he was at the bar and she in Corso Garibaldi. In the middle there's via S.Antonio, and that's why it appeared that Patrick's cellphone was in via S.Antonio instead of the bar.
The lawyer uses the occasion to remind me that even the presumed change of cellphone never occurred, whatever importance it may have had. If you ask, just to know, why Patrick admitted it, even the lawyer gets mad...

http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2008/03/when-truth-comes-out.html
 
  • #127
I guess this is an Asian newscast, but I was wondering if this animation was the one used in court, or is it another one? From looking at this one, it seems absurd and far fetched...just wondering....:waitasec:

<iframe width="560" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/DrxylYMiMVM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrxylYMiMVM&feature=related

Surely that was NOT used in court. It shows one of the boys throwing a rock through a GROUND-FLOOR window, for Pete's sake!

Too funny!!! might as well of been, lol... I saw the version used in court a long time ago - I tried to google it, no luck.
 
  • #128
Too funny!!! might as well of been, lol... I saw the version used in court a long time ago - I tried to google it, no luck.
Yeah, I tried to find that one but could not, either. Not much better than this one. ;)
 
  • #129
I guess this is an Asian newscast, but I was wondering if this animation was the one used in court, or is it another one? From looking at this one, it seems absurd and far fetched...just wondering....:waitasec:

<iframe width="560" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/DrxylYMiMVM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrxylYMiMVM&feature=related

No it was not the one used. If you will note this one even has them throwing the rock from the outside not inside
 
  • #130
I thought I read that the MOT report discounted anything the defense said in that regard because they believed that MK's phone had pinged from that tower before while she was in the cottage. How they know where MK was on prior pings is beyond me. She could have been near the cell phone drop site for some strange reason in the past, know what I mean? It will take me time to dig through the MOT to find what I'm talking about, unless someone else already knows where it is in the report.

Oh, wait, are you saying I'm right about the MOT report, but the defense has brought this up on appeal with proof that the phone pinged on the tower because it was enroute?

The MR contradicts itself on pages 335 and 352. On one page it states that the cell phone did not cover the area of the garden on the other page it states it does. Here is a comparison between what the scientific police did and what the defense expert did. Remember there are 2 cell towers within close proximity and the defense conducted repeated tests to make sure there information is accurate.

I have to state this up front. If you are trying to take the MR and tie it into the testimony that was presented it simply does not work as they only chose the information that supported their verdict not the BEST information that was presented at trial

The defense proved the 10:13 pm cell call did not originate in the cottage. It was the very first time any of her calls had ever pinged off this cell tower and the only way the defense could get it to ping off the cell phone tower in question was while they were away from the cottage and closer to the garden.

It also shows how shoddy ILE was with respect to this investigation, how contradictory and biased the MR is PERIOD,

From RS Appeal

During the course of the trial, the experts of the scientific police and Dr. Pellero, defense consultant, presented their arguments to the Court on this issue.
The experts of the scientific police:

&#8226; formulated approximate hypotheses on the radio-electric coverage, displaying a map on which they reported the direction of radiation only of the cells engaged by the investigated phones and, in order to define the area served by these cells, traced &#8216;circles&#8217; of position and radius without taking into account either the technical characteristics of the system of the telephone operator, or the orography of the territory, or any model of a scientific propagation, or the interaction of the neighbouring cells;

&#8226; only performed measurements on the field strength of the signals emitted by the cell phone network, without acquiring any of the elements transmitted by the network which condition the choice of cell involved, nor making reference to the selection criteria adopted by the cell phones;

&#8226; noted how, when carrying out field strength measurements: an. even a movement of half a meter involves a significant change in the conditions of reception (p. 335 judgment);

b. the reception capacity of the cell phones is conditioned by the field strength of the signal transmitted by the cell, a strength which below -102 dBm renders the signal unusable for telecommunications (p. 335 judgment);

&#8226; carried out field strength measurements of the signal emitted by the cell phone network only in proximity to the places of investigative interest, as follows:

a. outside the building in Via della Pergola in the garden;

b. outside the building in Via della Pergola, in proximity to the window of Meredith Kercher&#8217;s room;
c. outside Raffaele Sollecito&#8217;s building;
d. in the garden of the building on Via Sperandio 5 bis.

Dr. Pellero, Sollecito&#8217;s defence consultant:

&#8226; acquired detailed data on the radio-electric coverage of the cells at the time of the crime directly from the source, the cell phone operators. This allowed it to be demonstrated to the Court, on the basis of objective data, that the area of coverage of each cell is far from a regular geometric shape. Taking into account the technical characteristics of the systems, the orography of the territory and an appropriate model of scientific propagation, the telephone operator makes the area of coverage of each cell adopt the dimensions and the shape most able to serve its own customers, both in terms of quality and of density of traffic. This allowed the production of a detailed map, based on objective data which, also taking into account the interaction of all the cells present in the area of investigative interest, shows &#8211; with best approximation &#8211; the coverage area of each cell, or rather, the area within which, with maximum probability, the device which connected with each cell would be found;

&#8226; carried out field strength measurements of the signals emitted by the cell phone network, taking care to also acquire the elements transmitted by the cell phone network which condition the choice of which cell will be connected with, with reference to the selection criteria adopted by the cell phones (objective criteria fixed by binding Technical Regulations &#8211; ETSI Standards &#8211; knowledge of which was given to the Court, and which clearly indicate that the choice of cell is not solely a function of the field strength measured by the cell phone);

&#8226; carried out field strength measurements (including any incidental data) of the interest, as follows:

a. outside the building on Via della Pergola, in the garden;
b. inside the building on Via della Pergola, more precisely in the kitchen-living room;
c. inside the building on Via della Pergola, in Meredith Kercher&#8217;s room;
d. inside the building of Raffaele Sollecito, in the kitchen-living room;
e. inside the building of Raffaele Sollecito, in the bedroom;
f. in the garden of the building on Via Sperandio 5 bis;
g. in Park S. Angelo, the place from which &#8211; beyond any doubt &#8211; Meredith Kercher&#8217;s cell phones were thrown;
h. all along the path between Via della Pergola and Via Sperandio 5 bis, capturing &#8211; about every 3 seconds - a new series of measurements and the GPS position of the instrument;


&#8226; averaged a great deal of the data acquired, in order to exclude any effect due to temporary irregularity (vehicle transit, etc.) and, finally, compared the results of the measurements according to the selection criteria of the cell set by the Technical Regulations in force, thus obtaining a clear and objective picture of each cell receivable in each site examined, with the evidence of which proved to be the best serving cell (that which would be chosen by the cell phone at the beginning of each communication).

In essence, the differences between the activities of the PM&#8217;s consultants and those of Dr. Pellero (consultant of Sollecito&#8217;s defence) appear very clear:

&#8226; the scientific police indicated an area of approximate coverage and carried out measurements devoid of the elements necessary to contextualize them with respect to the criterion applied by the mobile phones for the choice of the serving cell, limiting the surveys to instantaneous measurements in the vicinity of, but not coincident with, the places of investigative interest (for example, only outside of Meredith&#8217;s room and Raffaele&#8217;s building);

&#8226; Dr. Pellero displayed a detailed representation of the area of coverage, based on objective data acquired directly at the source from the cell phone operators; he made complete, exhaustive and repeatable measurements at the places of investigative interest (e.g. inside Meredith&#8217;s room and Raffaele&#8217;s building), extending the measurements also to other places of direct investigative interest

(for example, Parco Sant&#8217;Angelo, in the area from which Meredith&#8217;s cell phones were thrown into the garden of Lana&#8217;s house in Via Sperandio 5 bis).

Nonetheless, in the grounds for the judgment, only the results obtained by the scientific police were described as amongst the elements which contributed to the formation of the judgment, and there is no trace of the objective, complete and repeatable results obtained by Sollecito&#8217;s defense consultant.
 
  • #131
Ah, yes, wasn't considering Amelie starting at 6:30. I'm a bit rusty on my timeline so I see I'll have to reassess some of this when I have a moment.

ETA: It appears this is one of those aspects I've glossed over in the past and taken at face value the cell phone pinging somewhere other than Raf's when Patrick sent her the message. But as we know, the pinging was incorrect when it came to Patrick's phone placing him at the cottage when he was actually at his bar. Amanda does claim she was at the cottage when the message was sent. Apparently, this was brought up in court but never resolved. This is something I need to look into further...

IIRC as it has been some time since have looked this over, RS received a call at about 6:00pm from his friend that had asked him to pick up some bags at the airport and AK was at his apartment then. She as well answered the door when the same person stopped by to tell RS that they did not need to pick up the bags after all. I believe this was about 8:40pm

I am at the office but will try to find the cell phone calls that did IIRC put her at the apartment, along with the above
 
  • #132
The MR contradicts itself on pages 335 and 352. On one page it states that the cell phone did not cover the area of the garden on the other page it states it does. Here is a comparison between what the scientific police did and what the defense expert did. Remember there are 2 cell towers within close proximity and the defense conducted repeated tests to make sure there information is accurate........

Sniped for space

Thanks, I'm not looking for fact within the Mot Report. I'm looking for the truth, even the contradictions, but thanks. I have to study what you have here, but I do need guidance like yours because, again, with so much contradictory information, it's so hard to get at the facts. I'll review this and get back to you. I tried to read the MOT on the cell stuff last night. :banghead: is what I felt like when I was done!
 
  • #133
You mean she was at RS when she sent her message, not at the cottage, right? If she was at the cottage, the defense could be toast. :)

Correct, i meant raf's. Thanks.
 
  • #134
I tried to find the posts discussing it in better detail but can't (maybe the thread is on hold) ... what I remember most about the weird pings and "goodnight" text is Patrick (falsely) confessing to something he didn't do...

because of the ping?, the police insisted he was in the cottage area and for some reason accused him of buying a different sim card, switching cell phones (something like that) He denied it ... however during the intense interrogation, questioning etc., Patrick broke down and said he switched (and he didn't!)

Before any of this was ironed out, Patrick was released.

Most respectfully snipped, for space and emphasis.
So, Patrick allegedly falsely confessed to something, too...huh....perhaps Mignini was coerced, too. Perhaps we should go ahead and give him the benefit of the doubt.

:innocent:
 
  • #135
Most respectfully snipped, for space and emphasis.
So, Patrick allegedly falsely confessed to something, too...huh....perhaps Mignini was coerced, too. Perhaps we should go ahead and give him the benefit of the doubt.

:innocent:
:floorlaugh:
 
  • #136
The MR contradicts itself on pages 335 and 352. On one page it states that the cell phone did not cover the area of the garden on the other page it states it does. Here is a comparison between what the scientific police did and what the defense expert did. Remember there are 2 cell towers within close proximity and the defense conducted repeated tests to make sure there information is accurate.

In the report I have, they start talking about footprints on the pages you mention. I have phone records on pages: 326 to 331.
 
  • #137
Most respectfully snipped, for space and emphasis.
So, Patrick allegedly falsely confessed to something, too...huh....perhaps Mignini was coerced, too. Perhaps we should go ahead and give him the benefit of the doubt.

:innocent:

I don't give PL the benefit of the doubt. I want to know what his poo was doing too, because we still have two witnesses who saw a black man running that night. They say it wasn't RG, so who was it? And, how well do PL and RG know each other? I think PL's excuse about his phone is lame, and if he can use it, the defense can use it, too. The fact that his phone pinged somewhere that he wasn't means that any phone in this investigation could do the same thing.

So I'm perplexed. Either they did his cell pings incorrectly, too, or PL might have more to do with it. I don't know...
 
  • #138
I don't give PL the benefit of the doubt. I want to know what his poo was doing too, because we still have two witnesses who saw a black man running that night. They say it wasn't RG, so who was it? And, how well do PL and RG know each other? I think PL's excuse about his phone is lame, and if he can use it, the defense can use it, too. The fact that his phone pinged somewhere that he wasn't means that any phone in this investigation could do the same thing.

So I'm perplexed. Either they did his cell pings incorrectly, too, or PL might have more to do with it. I don't know...

How disturbing. Are you pulling an Amanda and accusing Patrick of something??? Is there anything to base it on besides his "lame" excuse...I mean, so many people are willing to overlook AK's massive amounts of "lame" excuses...and Patrick's the suspicious one?

Wow, I feel like I've entered the Twilight Zone or something :ufo:
 
  • #139
I have some problems with AK and RS's story. I've always said that, but overwhelming evidence tells me that, whatever they were doing, those two were not in the murder room at the time of the murder.

I now have some problems with PL's story. At first, I took it all at face value that AK named him for no reason, that his phone cell tower was misnamed. Now to hear that he ALSO had some false story about that night....

Well, now he comes under suspicion for me, too. There is unknown DNA in the murder room and a couple who seemed credible said they saw a black man running that night, but turns out they wouldn't say that it was RG. I would still have a problem placing PL in the murder room for the same reaosn I cannot place AK and RS, but I'm just saying PL's story is shady, even if he didn't have anything to do with it.

I also think FR is shady, so it's nothing new that I suspect everyone involved of something, lying, whatever. No one is above any kind of suspicion for me. I just have to figure out if their lies or whatever they were doing at the time was significant to the case. For example, Maybe PL IS shady, but it's because he was cheating on his wife, which has no bearing on the case. So IF he was doing that and it caused him to act shady, then that's why he's shady. Do I make sense? I'm not saying he was doing that, just giving an example of why people would be shady and have nothing to do with the murder.
 
  • #140
I have some problems with AK and RS's story. I've always said that, but overwhelming evidence tells me that, whatever they were doing, those two were not in the murder room at the time of the murder.

I now have some problems with PL's story. At first, I took it all at face value that AK named him for no reason, that his phone cell tower was misnamed. Now to hear that he ALSO had some false story about that night....

Well, now he comes under suspicion for me, too. There is unknown DNA in the murder room and a couple who seemed credible said they saw a black man running that night, but turns out they wouldn't say that it was RG. I would still have a problem placing PL in the murder room for the same reaosn I cannot place AK and RS, but I'm just saying PL's story is shady, even if he didn't have anything to do with it.

I also think FR is shady, so it's nothing new that I suspect everyone involved of something, lying, whatever. No one is above any kind of suspicion for me. I just have to figure out if their lies or whatever they were doing at the time was significant to the case. For example, Maybe PL IS shady, but it's because he was cheating on his wife, which has no bearing on the case. So IF he was doing that and it caused him to act shady, then that's why he's shady. Do I make sense? I'm not saying he was doing that, just giving an example of why people would be shady and have nothing to do with the murder.
I hear what you're saying, and in a real investigation, no one CAN be above suspicion. However, I still think Hendry nailed it with the Guede-as-lone-wolf theory.
 
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