Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #15

[otto]

I believe SMK if you recall my posting much earlier to Otto with my analogy of lifesavers would you put a lifesaver in water if you wanted to save it to eat later? Of course not thus we have now proven why the bra clasp could not be retested as it was rusted and there was simply no way to retest the bra.

This does not mean though all hope is lost as they were able to review her findings of which is even worse

True, the lifesavers that the Knox family has tried to float are dissolving.

 

[Allusonz]

It's all very well to look at the conclusions of a one hundred and fourty something page report and claim to understand it, but ... uhm ... the conclusions are based on the arguments in the report and if the arguments are not sound - such as, for example, the big issue is that contamination may or may not have occurred - then it changes the look of the conclusions.

Why not post some of the pertinent quotes from the Italian document here so everyone can have a go at it. It's been established that Google Translate sucks, but it seems we have some capable translators posting here.

<modsnip>, I mistakenly typed conclusions instead of translations. These 2 sites are translating the report

 

[Allusonz]

True, the lifesavers that the Knox family has tried to float are dissolving.

They did not disolve the lifesavers ILE saved the bra clasp in a jar of liquid and you are trying to blame her family for that?????

 

[otto]

Not according to Stephanoni's testimony. There has never been contamination in her lab. Funny, every lab usually states that contamination is an ongoing issue

The lab report concludes that contamination cannot be ruled out. This is true of most labs. The report does not conclude that contamination has been ruled in, and it is established that the DNA on the bra clasp can be connected with Sollecito and the DNA on the knife can be connected with Meredith, Knox and Sollecito. It hasn't been ruled out that contamination was possible (and there's some question about whether EU or Knox driven US standards and regulations should be observed) ... it is the family's hope that the possibility of contamination will be interpreted as meaning that contamination occurred and that the guilty pair should be released.

 

[otto]

<modsnip>, I mistakenly typed conclusions instead of translations. These 2 sites are translating the report

If you have an English translation of the expert's report, not a google translation, by all means we're all interested. Please link!

The pseudo experts are waiting because, without someone to translate the document, they don't know what they are talking about

 

[Allusonz]

The lab report concludes that contamination cannot be ruled out. This is true of most labs. The report does not conclude that contamination has been ruled in, and it is established that the DNA on the bra clasp can be connected with Sollecito and the DNA on the knife can be connected with Meredith, Knox and Sollecito. It hasn't been ruled out that contamination was possible (and there's some question about whether EU or Knox driven US standards and regulations should be observed) ... it is the family's hope that the possibility of contamination will be interpreted as meaning that contamination occurred and that the guilty pair should be released.

Let me see if I understand this argument. You have an appeal judge that appoints 2 experts on the Courts behalf. No one seems to have any issues with these experts until the report comes out and now people are trying to debate whether they used the scientific writings of experts from the EU or American? Would you not think being the experts they are that they would use the ones that pertain to the argument they are trying to present the best.

Remember good science does not know international borders

 

[otto]

They did not disolve the lifesavers ILE saved the bra clasp in a jar of liquid and you are trying to blame her family for that?????

Who is being blamed for what?

The lifesavers around Knox dissolved long ago. She's been deservedly in prison for four years, and hopefully many more. She murdered her roommate in cold blood one Day of the Dead in the "medieval" town of Perugia. She sounds just like Casey Anthony with her protests of innocence and complaints about police.

 

[Allusonz]

Who is being blamed for what?

The lifesavers around Knox dissolved long ago. She's been deservedly in prison for four years, and hopefully many more. She murdered her roommate in cold blood one Day of the Dead in the "medieval" town of Perugia. She sounds just like Casey Anthony with her protests of innocence and complaints about police.

No they did not. As you have so often pointed out the Italian Judicial system does not consider them convicted until the last appeal. Thus Mignini is still allowed to prosecute even though he has been convicted. You cannot apply one standard to one person and not the other

 

[Salem]

Let's go easy on the snark guys. Don't let your frustration get the better of you.

Salem

 

[otto]

Let me see if I understand this argument. You have an appeal judge that appoints 2 experts on the Courts behalf. No one seems to have any issues with these experts until the report comes out and now people are trying to debate whether they used the scientific writings of experts from the EU or American? Would you not think being the experts they are that they would use the ones that pertain to the argument they are trying to present the best.

Remember good science does not know international borders

I don't know who has an issue with the report. The report states that contamination cannot be ruled out, but that the interpretation of the knife and clasp DNA is correct. Okay.

I have read critiques of the report based on whether the lab standards adhered to US DNA standards. I have no clue whether this is true as I haven't read the report, but I don't think that US standards are the beginning and end of DNA research ... don't see any reason why US standards should be adopted internationally (esp. given the similarity between the US and Greece). You have read the report ... what's your interprettion ... does it reference US standards at any point?

 

[Allusonz]

I don't know who has an issue with the report. The report states that contamination cannot be ruled out, but that the interpretation of the knife and clasp DNA is correct. Okay.

I have read critiques of the report based on whether the lab standards adhered to US DNA standards. I have no clue whether this is true as I haven't read the report, but I don't think that US standards are the beginning and end of DNA research ... don't see any reason why US standards should be adopted internationally (esp. given the similarity between the US and Greece). You have read the report ... what's your interprettion ... does it reference US standards at any point?

Of course it cannot. The report is scathing with respect to the collection methods used. Surely you have seen the videos where they have not changed gloves, shoe covers, items used to collect samples etc.

As well you will note how they treated MK's items. They tossed them into one huge pile and gave her parents a small suitcase

 

[otto]

No they did not. As you have so often pointed out the Italian Judicial system does not consider them convicted until the last appeal. Thus Mignini is still allowed to prosecute even though he has been convicted. You cannot apply one standard to one person and not the other

SkewedView is the contributor that points out that the Judicial system in Italy does not consider the pair convicted until the end of their appeals. I consider the pair convicted and sentenced - cuz they are. The prosecutors from the original trial are not involved in the appeal except to provide resource information, so why bring them up?

The standards are the same for Knox in all Westernized countries, except perhaps the United States. It appears that women can get away with murder in the United States and this has caused an uproar from the peer group.

Imagine if the uproarious group that objects to Casey Anthony's walk took a stance on Knox ... we'd probably see events like Bowling for Knox.

 

[Allusonz]

Then maybe reading the report would be a good idea. They are translating it into english as I have previously as well as Malkmus has previously given the sites of whom is translating it

 

[emyr]

*Most of the cites are from American 'manuals', not Italian or European 'manuals'.

*There is the 'possibility of contamination' at almost EVERY crime scene... with or without protocols.


Last and not least:
***Since we both know you have been reading PMF (not to mention TJMK)regularly... I'm quite sure you have seen from there that RS's dna is on the clasp according to the report. :innocent: Was that 'great' enough by me?

That wasn't what I gathered from the discussion there. What I gathered is some posters are saying that the report does not appear to disprove that Raffaelle's DNA is on there. The report states that Stefanoni should not have "cherry-picked" (my phrase) the data. i.e. she should not have selected the peaks which matched Sollecito's and ignored the peaks which did not match him.

The discussion goes on where some of the forum members said they see no problem with matching the peaks to the suspect, since the point of looking at the information is to see if it proves a suspicion.

The response to this is that this evidence is absolutely NOT to be used to prove a suspicion. The evidence is supposed to be an objective fact. A disinterested third party should be able to come up with the same profile.

The implication from the CONCLUSION of this new report is that a disinterested third party would NOT have come up with the same profile Stefanoni came up with.

I agree with Otto, however, that this discussion is complex because none of us DO know what the "standards" are for DNA testing and results. Using disposable tongs SEEMS like a very simple, standard practice, but perhaps it is not universally accepted.

That being said, doctors didn't used to wash their hands, and they killed a lot of people. Some common practices are dangerous. If disposable tongs are not widely used, then I don't think it takes an expert to surmise that one could transfer DNA from one place to the next.

IS Raffaelle's DNA conclusively on the bra clasp? What does the report say?

 

[Allusonz]

SkewedView is the contributor that points out that the Judicial system in Italy does not consider the pair convicted until the end of their appeals. I consider the pair convicted and sentenced - cuz they are. The prosecutors from the original trial are not involved in the appeal except to provide resource information, so why bring them up?

The standards are the same for Knox in all Westernized countries, except perhaps the United States. It appears that women can get away with murder in the United States and this has cause an uproar from the peer group.

Imagine if the uproarious group that objects to Casey Anthony's walk took a stance on Knox ... we'd probably see things events Bowling for Knox.

Why would that excuse Mignini whom was sentenced to 16 months and not allowed back to his job come in? Explain that one.....

ETA It simply cannot be as a double standard is being used

 

[Allusonz]

That wasn't what I gathered from the discussion there. What I gathered is some posters are saying that the report does not appear to disprove that Raffaelle's DNA is on there. The report states that Stefanoni should not have "cherry-picked" (my phrase) the data. i.e. she should not have selected the peaks which matched Sollecito's and ignored the peaks which did not match him.

The discussion goes on where some of the forum members said they see no problem with matching the peaks to the suspect, since the point of looking at the information is to see if it proves a suspicion.

The response to this is that this evidence is absolutely NOT to be used to prove a suspicion. The evidence is supposed to be an objective fact. A disinterested third party should be able to come up with the same profile.

The implication from the CONCLUSION of this new report is that a disinterested third party would NOT have come up with the same profile Stefanoni came up with.

I agree with Otto, however, that this discussion is complex because none of us DO know what the "standards" are for DNA testing and results. Using disposable tongs SEEMS like a very simple, standard practice, but perhaps it is not universally accepted.

That being said, doctors didn't used to wash their hands, and they killed a lot of people. Some common practices are dangerous. If disposable tongs are not widely used, then I don't think it takes an expert to surmise that one could transfer DNA from one place to the next.

IS Raffaelle's DNA conclusively on the bra clasp? What does the report say?[/QUOTE]

BBM

It states that a Y haloptype is present along with some others. There is a percentage of the population that would have this probably in the thousands. RS happens to have the Y (being male) haloptype. They are also pointing out that the one main one being MK's and the lower count ones cannot be excluded from contamination. In other words there are more than one profile on the clasp that would match alot of different people but cannot be said to be one person in particular. The reason it seems they cannot exclude contamination is that there are so many profiles showing and due to the collection methods and fact that it was not collected for 46 days, passed around, and was found in a different area than where it was original photographed. As well they picked it up, appeared to forget to photograph it and put it back down on the floor

 

[otto]

Of course it cannot. The report is scathing with respect to the collection methods used. Surely you have seen the videos where they have not changed gloves, shoe covers, items used to collect samples etc.

As well you will note how they treated MK's items. They tossed them into one huge pile and gave her parents a small suitcase

The report appears to be critical of the Italian Justice System, police, investigators, crime scene analysts, forensic analysts and DNA labs. Funny how that's exactly what the Friends of Amanda have been critical of since before her conviction. I suspect that this will result in the convicted pair gaining some headway in their appeal ... if only because it would appear dismissive if the Italian Justice System did not cave to the report's conclusions. The Italian justice system can cave during appeal, and still uphold the conviction in the Supreme Court. Perhaps Knox and Sollecito will be released on a technicality at the Supreme Court ruling ... like ... it could not be proven that there was no contamination in the lab. Is that the sort of victory that Knox and her family are seeking ... anything to get away with murder (like that Florida woman)?

Or ... are Knox and Sollecito seeking to clear their names.

 

[otto]

The day that I can actually discuss a hatlotype, haltofype, haloptype, lahtohype will be the day I know I am wasting too much time pretending to be a pseudo expert.

 

[otto]

Why would that excuse Mignini whom was sentenced to 16 months and not allowed back to his job come in? Explain that one.....

ETA It simply cannot be as a double standard is being used

There was a complaint againt one of Sollecito's prosecutors from years ago because he listened in on questionable police and reporter phone calls during an ongoing, unsovled murder investigation. Floundering book writers, like Doug Preston, complained. He is still complaining while we wait to hear if he was tortured for 2 or 3 hours - he's been a little unclear about the facts.

I have said all along that it is not unusual for prosecutors to have complaints against them. The phone tapping complaint against one of the prosecutors in the prosecution of Knox and Sollecito is neither here, nor there. Phone tapping is not a factor in their trial. Even if one of the prosecutors is disqualified, there is still another very competent prosecutor that was in court and sought justice for Meredith Kercher.

Go ahead and eliminate Mignini from the equation, the verdict still stands via Comodi (gotta love the translation of that for the toilet that Knox is in).

 

[otto]

Scratches head. Yup they are. Now they are trying a different tactic the math is simply not adding up when I look at my lifesavers though. They are running very low on lifesavers

Math and lifesavers ... like definately.