Meredith Kercher murdered - Amanda Knox convicted, now appeals #7

[Malkmus]

How do you know this? It is far more logical to assume the police brought up PL's name because they were reading the text message.

You seem to ignore the fact that if AK really intended to accuse PL, she put very little effort into it. She offered few to no details, when she could have told ILE all sorts of things about PL and his "obsession" with MK, and what she saw him do that night.

We know perfectly well how Patrick's name was brought into the interrogation. It's in the court transcripts and the prosecution doesn't deny it. They looked at her phone, saw the message, didn't know who it was to, so they asked her and she said it was to Patrick.
That's when the dam broke, because they were convinced that the message implied a rendez-vous and since Amanda had no idea what they were talking about (since they misunderstood the meaning of the text) ILE figured she was lying and that Patrick was involved.

 

[Nova]

After accusing the prosecutor of having it in for Amanda, the Italians of being anti-american, the forensic analyst of being sloppy and contaminating samples, the police of not doing their jobs ... we now have to strip down Meredith's friends because they repeat what Meredith said about Knox, because they thought it was abnormal that Knox stood up to sing at a restaurant, and because they consider Knox's remarks to have been highly inappropriate?

otto, my point is merely "compared to what"? How many roommates of murder victims had they known? How many girls who discovered dead bodies had they known? I'm going to guess the answer is none.

I believe them that AK behaved differently than they expected. But since their expectations probably weren't developed from personal experience, then we're really left with them saying AK didn't act like a surviving friend on TV.

 

[Nova]

If this were the case (no longer the coercion theory, but the false memory theory), why did Knox request two more opportunities to repeat the accusations against Patrick?

My personal belief is that the second statement was a result of increased pressure from the prosecutor, who didn't think the first statement was strong enough or specific enough.

The gift statement from later in the day is clearly an early attempt to recant the accusations against PL, since it's full of language about how "unreal" her memories are.

(ETA for the record: there is no "false memory theory" that is separate from the coercion theory. AK later claimed that someone (her mediator/interpreter, IIRC, kept insisting AK had taken PL to the cottage, but then blocked out the memory. It was all part of the coercion, a desperate attempt to support a theory that was invented before there was evidence to support it.)

 

[Nova]

If the prosecutor wanted Amanda to give another statement, couldn't he would have waited until morning rather than get out of bed at 3 in the morning and drive to the station to talk with Knox? Neither of the statements taken in the midde of the night were admissable, and the prosecutor would have known that, so it seems unlikely that he would have decided to obtain a second statement that was pretty much the same as the first.

Amanda's 1:45 statement could be used against others because she was a "witness", her 5:45 statement could not be used against her or others because she was a "suspect" and did not have a lawyer. There was no up side for the prosecutor to get the second statement, as the first was enough to arrest Patrick.

What page are you quoting from in Angel Face?

I think it's called "striking while the iron is hot." Mignini has no way of knowing whether AK would retract her statements re PL if the matter were dropped until morning.

That he was called in in the middle of the night ought to tell you something about the process.

 

[Malkmus]

How do you know this? It is far more logical to assume the police brought up PL's name because they were reading the text message.

You seem to ignore the fact that if AK really intended to accuse PL, she put very little effort into it. She offered few to no details, when she could have told ILE all sorts of things about PL and his "obsession" with MK, and what she saw him do that night.

Exactly. When you look at the statements you realize that they revolve completely around ILE's misinterpretation of the text. There's nothing more to those two (illegal by the way) statements than what they concluded from reading the text wrong. That she met patrick that night at the cottage and that he killed Meredith.

 

[SleuthyGal]

AK and RS were railroaded.

I finally can now say I'm off the fence.

I believe they are innocent of this murder.

Reading the reiteration of the same arguments (and misstatements) over and over and over and over, as if repeating them will do anything but put more bytes on a page, only causes me to see how firmly entrenched the ILE and others were to get AK and RS convicted for this crime.

That others have jumped on that bandwagon and are taking up the cause of perpetuating false facts only makes it more clear that a conspiracy is 95% emotional and maybe 5% factual. And there is no dealing with a human who is incapable of looking at facts without distorting them, to maintain a position based on emotion and feelings. That's what this case has turned into, from what I can see. Logic is not prevailing.

The facts do not support a 'guilty' verdict. I believe two people are sitting in jail in this case for something they did not do.

 

[Jade]

Most of these articles used to describe Amanda are hyperbolic.

Meredith "feared strange men" Amanda was bringing home? Here is the quote from Sophie Purton:



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-492410/Meredith-Foxy-Knoxy-brought-strange-men-house.html

The marijuana plants were being grown by Meredith's boyfriend and all the girls in the cottage smoked pot.

“residential disturbance”? She got a noise ticket. Who cares?

Sure she wrote a story about drugs and rape, among others. Her high school teacher explains:



And here are other opinions of Amanda from people who knew her:








If we're going to paint a picture of what kind of person Amanda is I think we need the whole picture. Not just how she was perceived in the weeks surrounding the murder. I think between all the information posted by Jade and myself we can conclude that both Amanda and Meredith were normal young women. Of course, my opinion.

ETA: Link http://www.seattlemet.com/issues/archives/articles/seattle-prep-amanda-knox-1210/1/

BBM

That’s ridiculous.

It is victim bashing to paint the convict and Meredith with the same brush.

Normal is like the thousands of other students in Perugia not sitting in jail serving 26 years for murder.

Normal is not lying, interfering with the investigation of a roommate’s death by wasting time and resources, implicating an innocent man and dishonoring the host country by perpetrating lies to an international media.

I had been willing to concede that her behavior was a red herring. But her defenders couldn’t let that rest and in lockstep with her enabling parents insist that it is all just a lark and shame on anyone who thinks otherwise which really discredits their argument.

Between the stated belief that the convict‘s pathological lying and inappropriate behavior is normal and RS is just well boys will be boys and another poster who claims a normal college student can’t string together a coherent sentence it is just disingenuous.

Fortunately for all of us AK & RS are not normal and that is why they are in jail and normal contributing members of society are going about their lives.



IMO

 

[dgfred]

Double... make that Triple 'thanks' for that post Jade! :clap: :gthanks:

 

[otto]

There's really no evidence of that as far as I can see. AK told lies under pressure and I understand that you suspect her because of that, but there's no credible evidence she murdered MK. There isn't even much of a theory.

However, that doesn't change my statement that we can all agree MK would have been better off if she hadn't rented a room in that cottage. (If that sounded as if I were blaming MK for her own murder, I assure you I was not. I was merely stating a fact: if she'd rented a room elsewhere, everything that followed would have been different. This in no way makes the murder MK's "fault." I've never known a poster here to blame MK in any way.)

No, that's incorrect. I do not "suspect" Amanda because she told lies under pressure. I believe that Amanda is guilty because of the abundance of circumstantial and forensic evidence implicating her, and two others, in the murder of Meredith Kercher.

Meredith was murdered because she met Knox. If she had lived elsewhere, and met Knox, we could have the same result. If she had not met Knox, she would be alive.

 

[otto]

Essentially, the chief investigator invented a theory of the murder with Patrick Lumumba as the central perpetrator. AK was badgered into claiming she brought PL to the apartment and then heard MK scream. That was enough for ILE to lock up Lumumba, even though none of the forensic evidence test results were back yet.

When the test results came back, lo and behold there was no DNA from Lumumba, but plenty from Rudy Guede. So rather than rethinking their theory, the investigator and prosecutor simply put in Guede in place of Lumumba.

So, yes, AK gave the police vague statements (in which she repeatedly casts doubt on her own testimony) that she brought Patrick Lumumba to the cottage where he killed Meredith Kercher.

All of it was proved to be a lie EXCEPT for the question of whether AK was ever at the cottage. On that, we're supposed to take AK's word, even though everything else she said was a lie. :shrug:

You're assuming that police suspected Patrick before speaking with Knox, but that isn't true. Knox introduce Patrick's name, and told a big story about taking Patrick to the cottage where he murdered Meredith. Based on that information, Patrick was deemed a suspect and arrested. It was not the other way around, and police did not suspect Patrick and then force Amanda to implicate him.

Knox described a murder where more than one person was involved. Rudy also told the same story, and evidence indicates more than one person was involved. Therefore, Knox's description of the night is consistent with the story offered by another of the convicted murderers.

Knox heard a scream, and this was also reported by someone in the area.

Knox knew that Meredith had bled to death before the information was made public.

... and on and on. The story Knox gave about Patrick included elements of truth ... so not everything she said was a lie. Accusing Patrick was a lie, but other things Knox said were true.

 

[otto]

You know what's funny, I also debate often on another site (JREF) and when the same question was asked of the moderator of Perugiamurderfile.org he couldn't produce a link either. The guy has been following the case since it began and is, IMO, responsible for propagating this rumor. I discovered that what it stems from is Mignini's claim that once he arrived at the station, Amanda gave the 5:45 statement without any prompting from him. This somehow turned into Amanda "demanding" that Mignini be dragged out of bed so he could be spoken to. This is the source of the rumor. I wouldn't bother searching for any links, Otto, it just doesn't exist.



Yes, I'm aware that once Mignini showed up she apparently made the same statement to him. So, in your book, what was the point of her insisting to give the same statement over again? You don't think it had anything to do with the need to arrest Amanda once she was a suspect? What exactly would she have gained by making the same statement twice?



Yes, I believe you're correct on this and I misspoke. Sorry.


Let me add just one point to this whole notion of Amanda "insisting" on making a second statement. When she made the 1:45 statement she was a witness and the statement couldn't be used to arrest her. So.... why didn't she just go home? You think she hung around the station for another 2 hours twiddling her thumbs until 3:30 AM then ran up to an officer and said "Bring Mignini in here, I want to say the same thing again to him!"

Logic, and multiple credible sources tell us that once she made the incriminating statement as a witness, Mignini was called in by ILE so she could be arrested after she repeated the statement as a suspect. This scenario doesn't involve any mental gymnastics, ignoring of multiple news reports, or belief in imaginary links that no one can produce.

I think Amanda wanted to be heard again because she believed that after accusing Patrick she would be free to leave, and when she was detained, she was confused and thought that she needed to speak to someone else and give the same story ... and then she would be free to leave.

 

[otto]

How do you know this? It is far more logical to assume the police brought up PL's name because they were reading the text message.

You seem to ignore the fact that if AK really intended to accuse PL, she put very little effort into it. She offered few to no details, when she could have told ILE all sorts of things about PL and his "obsession" with MK, and what she saw him do that night.

I know this because we discussed it a couple of weeks ago and I posted the section of the trial testimony where Knox states that she introduced his name to the discussion, not police.

Knox did tell all sorts of stories about Patrick ... how he was obsessed with Meredith, and she was afraid of him.

 

[flourish]

Double... make that Triple 'thanks' for that post Jade! :clap: :gthanks:

Actually, let's go for a quadruple "thanks" for that one!

:tyou::yourock:

 

[Nova]

No, that's incorrect. I do not "suspect" Amanda because she told lies under pressure. I believe that Amanda is guilty because of the abundance of circumstantial and forensic evidence implicating her, and two others, in the murder of Meredith Kercher.

Meredith was murdered because she met Knox. If she had lived elsewhere, and met Knox, we could have the same result. If she had not met Knox, she would be alive.

Fine. You don't "suspect" her, you believe she is guilty. But if there is an "abundance" of forensic evidence against AK, I wish somebody would mention some of it.

Your second paragraph above is nonsense. You have no way of knowing what would have ensued if MK had rented a room elsewhere. You don't even know if MK would have met AK under other circumstances. So I have no idea why you are arguing with me about it.

 

[Nova]

You're assuming that police suspected Patrick before speaking with Knox, but that isn't true. Knox introduce Patrick's name, and told a big story about taking Patrick to the cottage where he murdered Meredith. Based on that information, Patrick was deemed a suspect and arrested. It was not the other way around, and police did not suspect Patrick and then force Amanda to implicate him.

I assume no such thing. But I stand by my opinion as to how PL's name arose in the interrogation. Malkmus has already covered this in some detail. You have yet to offer a credible alternative explanation as to why AK randomly offered PL's name to the police and put herself at the scene of the crime.

Knox described a murder where more than one person was involved. Rudy also told the same story, and evidence indicates more than one person was involved. Therefore, Knox's description of the night is consistent with the story offered by another of the convicted murderers.

I'm not at all sure the evidence proves multiple attackers, but assuming there were, that doesn't prove AK was one of them. On the contrary, AK's "accounts" of the crime are noticeably lacking in detail.

Knox heard a scream, and this was also reported by someone in the area.

Oh, come on. AK knew her friend had been stabbed to death. It doesn't take Columbo to guess MK may well have screamed.

Knox knew that Meredith had bled to death before the information was made public.

This is the sort of testimony LE invents in case after case. AK was near by when the body was discovered. She was also questioned by LE off and on for several days and I'm sure she was asked about blood. She had numerous opportunities to pick up that information.

It might be significant if AK correctly asserted that MK had died from some invisible form of poisoning, but bleeding to death was evident.

... and on and on. The story Knox gave about Patrick included elements of truth ... so not everything she said was a lie. Accusing Patrick was a lie, but other things Knox said were true.

I don't see a single element of truth in the PL story, unless AK was at the scene of the crime, which is what you are assuming. Even her assertion of sexual relations between PL and MK is so vague there is no way to match it to what actually transpired between RG and MK.

 

[Nova]

I know this because we discussed it a couple of weeks ago and I posted the section of the trial testimony where Knox states that she introduced his name to the discussion, not police.

Knox did tell all sorts of stories about Patrick ... how he was obsessed with Meredith, and she was afraid of him.

I'm sure you're technically right: AK first mentioned the name Patrick Lumumba in response to a question about the "see ya later" email.

But it was LE who insisted PL was somehow involved in the events of that evening. I don't believe AK simply thought of PL and randomly decided to accuse him of a crime.

 

[otto]

Fine. You don't "suspect" her, you believe she is guilty. But if there is an "abundance" of forensic evidence against AK, I wish somebody would mention some of it.

Your second paragraph above is nonsense. You have no way of knowing what would have ensued if MK had rented a room elsewhere. You don't even know if MK would have met AK under other circumstances. So I have no idea why you are arguing with me about it.

I am disagreeing because I believe I am the best judge of what I think and why I think it. Lying to police is not enough to convict someone of murder, and I do not believe that Knox was convicted because she lied about Patrick murdering Meredith. I believe she is guilty because after following the months long trial, and hearing all the evidence that was produced in court, I came to the same conclusion as the courts: that Knox and Sollecito are guilty of murder. The trial lasted for months, and numerous items of evidence were presented during that time. I'm completely at a loss when asked "what is the one piece of evidence that makes you believe that Knox and Sollecito are guilty", or what evidence was there to prove they are guilty. Do you think the prosecutors were simply waving their arms and shouting "but she lied under pressure" month after month, and then Knox and Sollecito were found guilty? There was an awful lot more to it, regardless of what Edda and Curt would like people to believe.

Regarding my second paragraph ... the house that Meredith rented did not murder her, three people murdered her. Living here or there did not cause Meredith to be murdered. What caused Meredith to be murdered was her connection with Amanda Knox, who also had connections with Raffaele and Rudy. If we take Knox out of the equation, Meredith would be alive. If we take the cottage out of the equation and add Knox, Meredith would not be alive.

 

[miley]

Trial testimony

Mignini: Why did you speak about Patrick only in the interrogation of Nov 6 at 1:45?
Why didn't you mention him before? You never mentioned him before.

Amanda: Before what?

Mignini: In your preceding declarations, on Nov 2 at 15:30, on Nov 3 at 14:45, then, there was another one, Nov 4, 14:45, and then there's Nov 6, 1:45. Only in these declarations, and then in the following spontaneous declarations, did you mention the name of Patrick. Why hadn't you ever mentioned him before?

Amanda: Because that was the one where they suggested Patrick's name to me.

 

[otto]

Nova, Knox knew that Meredith bled to death right after the murder, and before the information was available.

Filominas' friend's boyfriend was with the Postal police at Meredith's bedroom door. Amanda and Raffaele were standing in the kitchen near the entrance to the cottage. Filomina, her friend and the two boyfriends were in the hallway leading to the bedroom. The police did not want to break down the door, but Filomina insisted. Amanda said that Meredith routinely locked her door. Filominas' friend's boyfriend forced open the door fairly easily as it had already been cracked (apparently Raffaele did this). Meredith was lying on the floor under a duvet with one foot exposed. Police ordered everyone out of the cottage.

Outside of the cottage, Knox and Sollecito were smooching, just like they were when the Postal Police arrived. Everyone was asked to go to the police station to give a statement, and Meredith's friends were also asked to go to the station to give statements. Amanda and Raffaele were driven to the station in the car of Filomina's friends. They claimed that the pair acted so strangely they searched their car afterwards to see if anything had been hidden by them.

At the police station, Knox and Sollecito continued acting strangely. This is what was said about them. Please note that Knox knew, even though she was no where near the bedroom and Meredith was covered with a duvet except for one foot, that Meredith bled to death.

"Amy Frost, a fellow student at Perugia's University for Foreigners at the time Ms Kercher was murdered in her room, described what she saw as the peculiar behaviour of Ms Knox and Mr Sollecito at a Perugia police station after the killing was discovered.

"Their behaviour at the police station seemed to me really inappropriate," she said. "They sat opposite each other, Amanda put her feet up on Raffaele's legs and made faces at him. Everyone cried except Amanda and Raffaele. I never saw them crying. They were kissing each other."

Robyn Butterworth, another close friend of Ms Kercher, said: "Amanda's behaviour was very strange. She didn't seem to show any emotion about what had happened."

They also testified to hearing Ms Knox say that she had seen Ms Kercher's body in the closet of her room with a blanket over it.

Ms Butterworth said: "I don't know who she was talking to. She was talking to the room. I didn't want to talk to her because I found it quite upsetting ... I was really upset that she was even mentioning these things. I removed myself, I didn't want to know. I also remember her talking on the phone, saying, 'It could have been me, how do you think I feel – I found her.' ... She kept talking about how she had found Meredith. She sounded proud that she had been the first to find her."

While in the waiting room at the police station, another of the friends, Natalie Hayward, remarked: "I hope Meredith wasn't in too much pain." Ms Frost remembered Ms Knox replying: "What do you ****ing think? She ****ing bled to death."
The witnesses also recalled how Ms Kercher struck up a friendship with Ms Knox, who she first regarded as "pretty and nice" – but said that the relationship degenerated as the English girl struggled to put up with her flatmate's personal habits.

They recalled how Ms Kercher complained that Ms Knox left the shared bathroom dirty, failed to flush the toilet and left a see-through washbag containing condoms and a rabbit-shaped vibrator lying around. They also said that she brought men home. "

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...girl--arrive-to-incriminate-knox-1609172.html

 

[Nova]

I am disagreeing because I believe I am the best judge of what I think and why I think it. Lying to police is not enough to convict someone of murder, and I do not believe that Knox was convicted because she lied about Patrick murdering Meredith. I believe she is guilty because after following the months long trial, and hearing all the evidence that was produced in court, I came to the same conclusion as the courts: that Knox and Sollecito are guilty of murder. The trial lasted for months, and numerous items of evidence were presented during that time. I'm completely at a loss when asked "what is the one piece of evidence that makes you believe that Knox and Sollecito are guilty", or what evidence was there to prove they are guilty. Do you think the prosecutors were simply waving their arms and shouting "but she lied under pressure" month after month, and then Knox and Sollecito were found guilty? There was an awful lot more to it, regardless of what Edda and Curt would like people to believe.

otto, my question about your disagreeing only referred to my offhand remark that I think we can all agree MK would have been better off if she had rented a room elsewhere. See my comments on that subject below.

As for the supposed "mountain" of forensic evidence against AK, you ought to be able to list some of it. I see the "mountain" of evidence against RG. And I see numerous complaints about AK's affect after the murder. But I do not see much forensic evidence against AK or RS. A bit of highly suspicious DNA on a knife and on a bra clasp? I think that's called making a mountain out of a molehill.

Regarding my second paragraph ... the house that Meredith rented did not murder her, three people murdered her. Living here or there did not cause Meredith to be murdered. What caused Meredith to be murdered was her connection with Amanda Knox, who also had connections with Raffaele and Rudy. If we take Knox out of the equation, Meredith would be alive. If we take the cottage out of the equation and add Knox, Meredith would not be alive.

OK, here I believe you are arguing just to be arguing. All I said is that we can all agree MK would be better off if she had found lodging elsewhere. And if we're honest, we can agree on that much. (That isn't to say she is to blame for her choice of lodging, just that living there put her in contact with the murderer or murderers.)

At no time have you or the prosecutor articulated a theory of the murder in which AK looks for a prey and specifically chooses MK. So I see no reason to believe that if MK had lived elsewhere, she would have been in danger. Even under the various prosecution theories, the danger would have attached to whoever rented the room in MK's stead.

It was just an offhand comment, otto. Your need to argue the point through three rounds of posts baffles me.