GUILTY MI - 4 students killed, 6 injured, Oxford High School shooting, 30 Nov 2021 *Arrest incl parents* *teen guilty* #5

[wyome]

I think this is the only case that I have followed where the parents of the shooter went on the run. That move tells me there's a lot going on within the family and the parents texts are just a small portion of it.

Never heard the expression "doing school", I'm assuming that means that Ethan was in school.

All jmo

I was shocked to learn that the parents fled, but they were still arrested within, what 3 days? Did they ever give lengthy formal interviews at the police station together or separately? IIRC, Jennifer did and it was mentioned that that was the last time she saw her son? And the dad made a 911 call. This case moved so fast, that I do wonder if arresting them so soon will play against the prosecution's case. idk.

 

[wyome]

The state doesn't have to prove his parents "knew" he would shoot up the school. I think it's more about proving their negligence was so unreasonable and extreme that they should also be held responsible for the outcome. JMO.

That makes sense.

Ethan Crumbley sentenced to life without parole for Oxford, Michigan, school shooting

Ethan Crumbley was sentenced in a hearing Friday for killing four students and wounding seven others when he opened fire at Oxford High School in Michigan in November 2021.

edition.cnn.com

I'm sure the defense will bring into play Ethan's own words during sentencing, referencing his parents didn't know and they are not to blame. But with own description above and the fact that he was a gun owner at 15 years old, his words may fall flat for the jury.

 

[Izzylizzy]

I would think it would be beneficial due to the fact that she could testify, "I didn't reply to his texts because I read them when I was on my way home and had a lengthy conversation with him at that time. He was fine", blah blah blah. Ethan won't be called to back that up, so there will be no one to dispute her testimony.
I don't see a down-side to her testifying. They only have texts, and a lot of communication between family is done in the home.

And you're right, she will cry and sob and the jurors will see a prosecution trying to poke an already grieving mother.

I would though love to know what happened the night Ethan slept in their room and what he did the night before that he supposedly has no memory of that she felt the need to drug him.

I think the prosecution has texts they can work with to try and prove that Jennifer knew her son was suffering from some kind of mental distress and /or she was given enough info from him to be expected to get him professional help.
Is the new evidence and witnesses that the prosecutors gave the courts in Nov.2023 against Jennifer which is why she's not having a joint trial with James?

**Jennifer's morning Prozax text with James?

She may have told a friend(s) what took place that night.Just because Jennifer deleted texts/messages doesn't mean that the receiver also deleted them and they may have handed texts over to the state?

This: Why would Jennifer think that EC might do something stupid if he never had before or never had threatened to do so in the past?

"In a three-string thread of texts, Jennifer is "voicing concern" over the shooter, the defense says. They include her saying she's freaking out and asking if he's home yet. "I don't want him to do anything stupid," she writes to James.

This: The text that could bring her down after the state shows to the jury all the warnings EC did give to his mother which she ignored.
After the school meeting, 4 days before the shooting the parents were told to seek a therapist for EC and they never contacted one and according to their electronic records never even looked for one.

**In another text to Pennock, she writes "I wish we had warnings.. Something."

Second day of Jennifer Crumbley's trial includes text messages, cross examination of forensic analyst

During day one, Jennifer Crumbley's lawyer shifted blame to her husband, James, arguing that Jennifer knew nothing about guns.

www.fox2detroit.com

 

[Izzylizzy]

That makes sense.

Ethan Crumbley sentenced to life without parole for Oxford, Michigan, school shooting

Ethan Crumbley was sentenced in a hearing Friday for killing four students and wounding seven others when he opened fire at Oxford High School in Michigan in November 2021.

edition.cnn.com

I'm sure the defense will bring into play Ethan's own words during sentencing, referencing his parents didn't know and they are not to blame. But with own description above and the fact that he was a gun owner at 15 years old, his words may fall flat for the jury.

I don't think either side can bring EC's words from his sentencing into Jennifer's trial.

 

[Izzylizzy]

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I'm into it only 20 mins but wanted to drop it here.
Kira Pennock horse farm owner is testifying, Jen and James are sitting together.
She's only 25 yrs old, being questioned by female prosecutor.
I don't know yet the meaning of her being called and her testimony but so far she hasn't held back when questioned.
Appears like a down to earth young woman.

 

[Cool Cats]

I think the prosecution has texts they can work with to try and prove that Jennifer knew her son was suffering from some kind of mental distress and /or she was given enough info from him to be expected to get him professional help.
Is the new evidence and witnesses that the prosecutors gave the courts in Nov.2023 against Jennifer which is why she's not having a joint trial with James?

**Jennifer's morning Prozax text with James?

She may have told a friend(s) what took place that night.Just because Jennifer deleted texts/messages doesn't mean that the receiver also deleted them and they may have handed texts over to the state?

This: Why would Jennifer think that EC might do something stupid if he never had before or never had threatened to do so in the past?

"In a three-string thread of texts, Jennifer is "voicing concern" over the shooter, the defense says. They include her saying she's freaking out and asking if he's home yet. "I don't want him to do anything stupid," she writes to James.

This: The text that could bring her down after the state shows to the jury all the warnings EC did give to his mother which she ignored.
After the school meeting, 4 days before the shooting the parents were told to seek a therapist for EC and they never contacted one and according to their electronic records never even looked for one.

**In another text to Pennock, she writes "I wish we had warnings.. Something."

Second day of Jennifer Crumbley's trial includes text messages, cross examination of forensic analyst

During day one, Jennifer Crumbley's lawyer shifted blame to her husband, James, arguing that Jennifer knew nothing about guns.

www.fox2detroit.com

Quote
After the school meeting, 4 days before the shooting the parents were told to seek a therapist for EC and they never contacted one and according to their electronic records never even looked for one.

I can't find information about the Crumbley's having a school meeting 4 days before the shooting. Do you have a link?

Thank You

 

[IAMWAN]

Quote
After the school meeting, 4 days before the shooting the parents were told to seek a therapist for EC and they never contacted one and according to their electronic records never even looked for one.

I can't find information about the Crumbley's having a school meeting 4 days before the shooting. Do you have a link?

Thank You

I think the OP is confused.

The first meeting that they had at the school was the day of the shooting with a VM left the day before about the bullet search on the phone. The computer expert testified yesterday that between the time that the parents left the school meeting on 11/30 and the time they became aware of the shooting, Jennifer Crumbley had time to message back and forth with the woman about coming out to the barn that night but did not do any searches regarding finding counseling or mental health resources for EC.

 

[Izzylizzy]

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I'm into it only 20 mins but wanted to drop it here.
Kira Pennock horse farm owner is testifying, Jen and James are sitting together.
She's only 25 yrs old, being questioned by female prosecutor.
I don't know yet the meaning of her being called and her testimony but so far she hasn't held back when questioned.
Appears like a down to earth young woman.

Video freezes at 28"08 when prosecutor asks Kira when she heard of shooting and didn't know yet who did it what did she think?
Jennifer earlier had texted Kira image of EC's school gun/violence drawing.
Why was Kira's answer retracted from video?

 

[Cool Cats]

Explosive texts revealed in Jennifer Crumbley's trial: 'We're on the run again'​

(LE was able to recover deleted texts)

Explosive texts revealed in Jennifer Crumbley's trial: 'We're on the run again'

The Oxford High School shooter's parents have said they fled home because of threats, not because they were trying to elude police.

www.freep.com

How Jennifer Crumbley's deleted texts and love of horses came back to haunt her​

MSN

Jurors heard explosive testimony in Jennifer Crumbley's trial Friday that contradicts the Crumbley parents' long-held claim that they were not on the run following their son's arrest in the deadly 2021 Oxford High School shooting.

According to trial testimony, Jennifer Crumbley deleted messages that she had written to her boss in the middle of the night on Dec. 2, 2021 — the day before Oakland County Prosecutor Karen McDonald announced involuntary manslaughter charges against the couple.

Among the deleted messages on Jennifer Crumbley's just-purchased phone, according to witness testimony, is this one to her boss:

"We're on the run again. Helicopters. Not sure where to. I'll message you."

It was sent at 1:31 a.m.

That same night, came another message from Jennifer Crumbley to her boss: "We're F-----"

The deleted messages from Jennifer Crumbley's phone, which were obtained through a search warrant, corroborate the prosecution's claims that the Crumbleys were on the run from law enforcement in the days following the shooting, because, they allege, the couple knew they were responsible for the tragedy.

 

[Weki]

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I'm into it only 20 mins but wanted to drop it here.
Kira Pennock horse farm owner is testifying, Jen and James are sitting together.
She's only 25 yrs old, being questioned by female prosecutor.
I don't know yet the meaning of her being called and her testimony but so far she hasn't held back when questioned.
Appears like a down to earth young woman.

Is this the same woman that was sending her sympathetic texts right after? I watched these hearings in bits and pieces at the time but I have forgotten specifics.

 

[Izzylizzy]

I gather all witnesses who testified at the Crombley's Preliminary Hearings will be testifying at Jennifer's trial.
Andrew Smith the COO at the Real Estate Co. that Jennifer worked at and got fired from.
I find it quite bizarre that Jennifer was sending the gun/violent drawing that EC did to people that she was not close to, like Amanda the co-worker and Andrew Smith who knew the least about Jennifer's family/son.
So Jennifer has the time on 11-30 to be concerned about her horses and job.
Shannon Smith sure does use word salads to take up time.
These videos of the preliminary hearings may have been posted during their timeline but they're a first for me and maybe for others on the thread.
I find it helps to be able to put a face with their testimony on people that have roles in a trial.

video in link

'The gun is gone': Jennifer Crumbley's boss, coworker share interactions on day of Oxford High School shooting

Jennifer Crumbley's supervisor said he found out about the school shooting when he heard her screaming in her office.

www.fox2detroit.com

Andrew Smith

 

[Izzylizzy]

Is this the same woman that was sending her sympathetic texts right after? I watched these hearings in bits and pieces at the time but I have forgotten specifics.

Yes.
McDonald(?) the female prosecutor asked both Kira and Amanda during her rebutt if they knew on Nov 30th that the couple bought a gun for EC for Christmas that matches his gun/violent drawing and they both said no.
Kira came across as a level headed down to earth young woman who Jennifer contacted that night(which in itself is unbelievable to me)about selling her 2 horses and was probably in shock herself hearing from JC and I think handled the back and forth with Jennifer quite well.

I've come to the conclusion that Jen C suffers from a lack of self awareness.
She even made time for a boyfriend.


What I found really interesting is when Kira was asked by prosecutor about her telling JC not to come to the barn, Kira said she didn't want them coming because she didn't want them to take anything of hers or other peoples.?????
Then the concern that they could be in danger coming there.

 

[Weki]

Yes.
McDonald(?) the female prosecutor asked both Kira and Amanda during her rebutt if they knew on Nov 30th that the couple bought a gun for EC for Christmas that matches his gun/violent drawing and they both said no.
Kira came across as a level headed down to earth young woman who Jennifer contacted that night(which in itself is unbelievable to me)about selling her 2 horses and was probably in shock herself hearing from JC and I think handled the back and forth with Jennifer quite well.

I've come to the conclusion that Jen C suffers from a lack of self awareness.
She even made time for a boyfriend.


What I found really interesting is when Kira was asked by prosecutor about her telling JC not to come to the barn, Kira said she didn't want them coming because she didn't want them to take anything of hers or other peoples.?????
Then the concern that they could be in danger coming there.

Wow thanks I was gonna go back and rewatch the hearings but these ppl will all testify at the trial so I’ll just wait.

I agree that the Crumbley parents come across as entirely selfish and self-absorbed. No self-awareness whatsoever! Some people really should never become parents. It’s heartbreaking. I’ll be shocked if McDonald (the female prosecutor is the district attorney, in case folks weren’t aware) can pull this off & get a conviction. JMO

 

[Izzylizzy]

Wow thanks I was gonna go back and rewatch the hearings but these ppl will all testify at the trial so I’ll just wait.

I agree that the Crumbley parents come across as entirely selfish and self-absorbed. No self-awareness whatsoever! Some people really should never become parents. It’s heartbreaking. I’ll be shocked if McDonald (the female prosecutor is the district attorney, in case folks weren’t aware) can pull this off & get a conviction. JMO

I've been thinking more along the lines that JC will be found guilty but it's the judge who will go real light on her,even giving her time served with probation.
I have no idea why that's been crossing my mind.

I think McDonald did great with the witnesses in the preliminary hearings and hopefully she's as articulate and straight to the point with the witnesses that will be testifying at the trial.
Smith is a babbler who uses the "look over there" defense with her feeble attempts at trying to portray JC as a loving and caring mama when the evidence points elsewhere.

This video has the full 22 hrs of the preliminary hearings.

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[Izzylizzy]

Who does it look like Judge Matthews is giving a "wink" to without winking to as soon as she sits down?

---

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[Izzylizzy]

Quote
After the school meeting, 4 days before the shooting the parents were told to seek a therapist for EC and they never contacted one and according to their electronic records never even looked for one.

I can't find information about the Crumbley's having a school meeting 4 days before the shooting. Do you have a link?

Thank You

I stand corrected.
It was 4 days after the gun was bought for EC that he massacred innocents.

No electronic evidence was found throughout the forensic investigation of JC looking for any psych help for her son.

 

[wyome]

Explosive texts revealed in Jennifer Crumbley's trial: 'We're on the run again'​

(LE was able to recover deleted texts)

Explosive texts revealed in Jennifer Crumbley's trial: 'We're on the run again'

The Oxford High School shooter's parents have said they fled home because of threats, not because they were trying to elude police.

www.freep.com

How Jennifer Crumbley's deleted texts and love of horses came back to haunt her​

MSN

Jurors heard explosive testimony in Jennifer Crumbley's trial Friday that contradicts the Crumbley parents' long-held claim that they were not on the run following their son's arrest in the deadly 2021 Oxford High School shooting.

According to trial testimony, Jennifer Crumbley deleted messages that she had written to her boss in the middle of the night on Dec. 2, 2021 — the day before Oakland County Prosecutor Karen McDonald announced involuntary manslaughter charges against the couple.

Among the deleted messages on Jennifer Crumbley's just-purchased phone, according to witness testimony, is this one to her boss:

"We're on the run again. Helicopters. Not sure where to. I'll message you."

It was sent at 1:31 a.m.

That same night, came another message from Jennifer Crumbley to her boss: "We're F-----"

The deleted messages from Jennifer Crumbley's phone, which were obtained through a search warrant, corroborate the prosecution's claims that the Crumbleys were on the run from law enforcement in the days following the shooting, because, they allege, the couple knew they were responsible for the tragedy.

Call me crazy but I'm beginning to believe that Jennifer really was INITIALLY on the run from "people that want to kill us for what our son did" and not from police. There seems to be a real detachment here that's hard to describe. She barely mentions her only son, in the early texts and as a mom I find that REALLY odd. Honestly, I can't believe she was coherently texting anyone, or wanting to speak with anyone besides her son.

I mean, who the hell texts their boss those kind of weird statements? "We're on the run......I'll message you." It's almost comical. It's definitely unnatural. She seems like a person who steps outside herself A LOT to deal with the mundane or the acute.

I bet if you asked a sampling of parents whose child shot up a school, you'd be met with a vast majority feeling that they must have been somewhat responsible. They weren't present, they weren't home enough, they weren't strict enough, they were too strict, they didn't do 1, 2, 3, 4....etc. well enough.
I'm sure MOST would feel somewhat responsible. And I'm sure they all too had interviews with LE after the tragic events.

So I guess I'm really puzzled as to why these parents went into survival mode/flight response, when a typical school shooting tragedy would cause severe isolation and almost paralysis in most.

 

[Izzylizzy]

The School counselor @ Oxford High School who met with EC on the 29th and on the 30th with EC and parents.
Begins @ 15:55

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[cujenn81]

I was shocked to learn that the parents fled, but they were still arrested within, what 3 days? Did they ever give lengthy formal interviews at the police station together or separately? IIRC, Jennifer did and it was mentioned that that was the last time she saw her son? And the dad made a 911 call. This case moved so fast, that I do wonder if arresting them so soon will play against the prosecution's case. idk.

Their fleeing the police was a very big deal at the time and there was a MASSIVE statewide manhunt undertaken to locate them — city and state police, helicopters, the FBI, US Marshals, award money was offered, etc. I think the biggest concern was that LE didn’t know if they were armed. I remember following Twitter and news updates in real time. If I’m not mistaken, they even temporarily halted Canadian border crossings in Michigan for a brief period of time right before they were found.

They fled town the day of the shooting after draining their son’s bank account. The prosecutor’s office held a PC to announce they had filed charges against the Crumbleys, so their attorneys contacted LE to say they would turn themselves in the next day at the scheduled arraignment. Lo and behold, the Crumbleys failed to show and their attorneys were unable to reach them by phone. When they were eventually located in Detroit, they had 4 burner phones and more than $6,000 in cash on them.

IMO the Crumbleys knew the State had evidence they’d purchased their son a gun even though they knew he’d been mentally struggling… and that’s precisely why they fled.

 

[cujenn81]

Call me crazy but I'm beginning to believe that Jennifer really was INITIALLY on the run from "people that want to kill us for what our son did" and not from police. There seems to be a real detachment here that's hard to describe. She barely mentions her only son, in the early texts and as a mom I find that REALLY odd. Honestly, I can't believe she was coherently texting anyone, or wanting to speak with anyone besides her son.

I mean, who the hell texts their boss those kind of weird statements? "We're on the run......I'll message you." It's almost comical. It's definitely unnatural. She seems like a person who steps outside herself A LOT to deal with the mundane or the acute.

I bet if you asked a sampling of parents whose child shot up a school, you'd be met with a vast majority feeling that they must have been somewhat responsible. They weren't present, they weren't home enough, they weren't strict enough, they were too strict, they didn't do 1, 2, 3, 4....etc. well enough.
I'm sure MOST would feel somewhat responsible. And I'm sure they all too had interviews with LE after the tragic events.

So I guess I'm really puzzled as to why these parents went into survival mode/flight response, when a typical school shooting tragedy would cause severe isolation and almost paralysis in most.

BBM

Because they purchased a gun for their son and gave it to him four days before the shooting. And they were called to meet with his school counselor on the morning of the shooting and they were shown images of drawings he’d doodled all over his math worksheet of a man with a gun, and bullets and blood, and the words THE THOUGHTS WON’T STOP HELP ME but couldn’t even be bothered to mention that he had access to a gun or take a second to look through his book bag and then refused the school’s suggestion to take him home and then he pulled out that gun they bought him and started killing high school students with it a little more than an hour later.

That would be my best guess.