GUILTY MI - 4 students killed, 6 injured, Oxford High School shooting, 30 Nov 2021 *Arrest incl parents* *teen guilty* #5

[RickshawFan]

I would think it would be beneficial due to the fact that she could testify, "I didn't reply to his texts because I read them when I was on my way home and had a lengthy conversation with him at that time. He was fine", blah blah blah. Ethan won't be called to back that up, so there will be no one to dispute her testimony.
I don't see a down-side to her testifying. They only have texts, and a lot of communication between family is done in the home.

And you're right, she will cry and sob and the jurors will see a prosecution trying to poke an already grieving mother.

I would though love to know what happened the night Ethan slept in their room and what he did the night before that he supposedly has no memory of that she felt the need to drug him.

They have witnesses from the horse barn. She was there when she received some of the texts. On the stand, they will be able to say her response.

 

[RickshawFan]

I'm into it only 20 mins but wanted to drop it here.
Kira Pennock horse farm owner is testifying, Jen and James are sitting together.
She's only 25 yrs old, being questioned by female prosecutor.
I don't know yet the meaning of her being called and her testimony but so far she hasn't held back when questioned.
Appears like a down to earth young woman.

I believe this was a segment of a longer hearing. Here is the whole, with several witnesses:

 

[RickshawFan]

More hearing testimony:

 

[RickshawFan]

It’s clear there were other forms of neglect than simply ignoring Ethan’s texts. I don’t believe he was on their health insurance from work. IIRC he had no medical attention, not even dental work. Yet the parents were all consumed with the health of their horses.

Ethan can’t have been prescribed that stuff like Xanax, so I wonder about their source.

 

[ChatteringBirds]

I’ll be shocked if McDonald (the female prosecutor is the district attorney, in case folks weren’t aware) can pull this off & get a conviction. JMO

Why do you think a conviction is unlikely?

 

[Weki]

Why do you think a conviction is unlikely?

I think it will be difficult for a jury (some of whom are likely parents themselves) to say that parents should be held accountable for the criminal deeds of their children. The state will prove these are terrible parents, no doubt. But I’m sure some of the jurors themselves are either terrible parents or have terrible parents in their family/friend circle. People give terrible parents a lot of latitude. This is an unprecedented case. I’ll be listening very carefully to the jury instructions as well to see if legally they can convict them. JMO

 

[Izzylizzy]

BBM

Because they purchased a gun for their son and gave it to him four days before the shooting. And they were called to meet with his school counselor on the morning of the shooting and they were shown images of drawings he’d doodled all over his math worksheet of a man with a gun, and bullets and blood, and the words THE THOUGHTS WON’T STOP HELP ME but couldn’t even be bothered to mention that he had access to a gun or take a second to look through his book bag and then refused the school’s suggestion to take him home and then he pulled out that gun they bought him and started killing high school students with it a little more than an hour later.

That would be my best guess.

I believe this was a segment of a longer hearing. Here is the whole, with several witnesses:

Yes! You covered all the bases.
The ending of the school counselors testimony is missing from both of the videos that we posted.
I found the full video of his testimony.

It didn't look good for the School Counselor after Shannon Smith finished with all the actions that he didn't take on 11-30 which he agreed with, that is until McDonald did her rebuttal driving home all the crucial info ( info. that you stated) the parents didn't give the counselor and the school dean during the meeting.

@1:20 McDonald begins her redirect.

 

[Weki]

Just to add to my comment earlier….

Another glaring issue for the state is that the school wasn’t alarmed enough to send EC home that day. He’s drawing guns, bullets and indicating he wants to kill ppl. I get that they didn’t know and weren’t informed he was just recently gifted an Sig Sauer but still. Given all the school shootings, how does a school administrator not send his behind home?? That gives the parents inaction some out. JMO

 

[Izzylizzy]

Just to add to my comment earlier….

Another glaring issue for the state is that the school wasn’t alarmed enough to send EC home that day. He’s drawing guns, bullets and indicating he wants to kill ppl. I get that they didn’t know and weren’t informed he was just recently gifted an Sig Sauer but still. Given all the school shootings, how does a school administrator not send his behind home?? That gives the parents inaction some out. JMO

I also gave that thought.
JC told the counselor that they had to return to work, which we found out from JC's superior Andrew Smith that JC didn't need to return to work on the 30th and that their company was very family friendly.

The school counselor did not want EC to be left alone because he felt he could be suicidal and hurt himself and told the parents to get him mental help even telling them to get it that day, the 30th.
No can do said JC.

The counselor gave them 48 hrs to obtain a therapist for EC and planned on meeting with EC the next morning for therapist update.

The counselor wasn't the one that decided if a student's actions warranted the student be removed from school, iirc: he said that was the Dean's call.
I'm going to look into the dean and if he testified at the preliminary hearings.

The parents showed no concern about anything their son had done and gave no indication that anything was amiss at home with EC.

The parents were disingenuous (played stupid) throughout the meeting.

 

[wyome]

Just to add to my comment earlier….

Another glaring issue for the state is that the school wasn’t alarmed enough to send EC home that day. He’s drawing guns, bullets and indicating he wants to kill ppl. I get that they didn’t know and weren’t informed he was just recently gifted an Sig Sauer but still. Given all the school shootings, how does a school administrator not send his behind home?? That gives the parents inaction some out. JMO

That's a good point. If a school, who deals with 12-15 cases of disturbed children a year, didn't see enough alarm to send EC home that day, then maybe one of the jurors would offer that same courtesy to the parent.

 

[Izzylizzy]

Here's an article listing red flags that the school is accused of ignoring about EC leading up to 11-30-21.
There are numerous lawsuits in progress against the parents and the school.

New evidence alleges Ethan Crumbley exhibited more warning signs ahead of school shooting

Teachers and school administrators allegedly saw warning signs exhibited by Ethan Crumbley as early as August 2021, months before the Oxford School shooting.

abcnews.go.com

 

[Izzylizzy]

I'm getting more of a complete picture now from reading numerous articles about the school's involvement.

Ex-board members: Ethan Crumbley should've been sent home — but Oxford H.S. ignored policy

Two school board members who resigned turn whistleblowers and say Ethan Crumbley should have been sent home under a policy administrators ignored.

www.freep.com

 

[Izzylizzy]

So far I haven't heard of these accusations filed in the lawsuit entered as evidence in JC's trial.
I may have missed them or they're yet to come or they're not admissible in JC's trial?

Yikes.

Lawsuit says administrators knew Michigan school shooting suspect was dangerous

The complaint accuses the defendants of “gross negligence” and alleges that their actions caused “serious and permanent physical and emotional trauma.”

www.nbcnews.com

 

[Izzylizzy]

I'm getting confused about the meeting on the 30th.
I'm also new to the progression that's taken place leading up to JC's trial.

Preliminary Hearing:

Smith accused the school counselor of not calling CPS on the parents since he was so concerned about EC and the SC didn't say it was told to the parents that they could/would call.
I don't remember McDonald addressing it.

Here we have a different claim on CPS.

"The lawsuit asserted that a school meeting held with Ethan and his parents, James and Jennifer Crumbley, just two hours before the shooting worsened the situation because Ejak and Hopkins both threatened to call child protective services and have the then-15-year-old removed from his home."

https://www.courthousenews.com/michigan-school-officials-must-face-lawsuit-over-oxford-shooting/

 

[wyome]

I also gave that thought.
JC told the counselor that they had to return to work, which we found out from JC's superior Andrew Smith that JC didn't need to return to work on the 30th and that their company was very family friendly.

The school counselor did not want EC to be left alone because he felt he could be suicidal and hurt himself and told the parents to get him mental help even telling them to get it that day, the 30th.
No can do said JC.

The counselor gave them 48 hrs to obtain a therapist for EC and planned on meeting with EC the next morning for therapist update.

The counselor wasn't the one that decided if a student's actions warranted the student be removed from school, iirc: he said that was the Dean's call.
I'm going to look into the dean and if he testified at the preliminary hearings.

The parents showed no concern about anything their son had done and gave no indication that anything was amiss at home with EC.

The parents were disingenuous (played stupid) throughout the meeting.

The fact that no discipline was handed down is really mind-boggling, particularly since he was looking up bullets days prior. I would think a 3-day suspension and mandatory counseling before returning would be appropriate. I totally understand the counselor being concerned about him being left alone, and with the defendant stating they had to work, perhaps the dean felt pushing them to drop him home alone may have been factor. IDK.

I am surprised, also, that they only met with the parents in the same room as the child. I'm concerned that communication may have been watered down a bit in not wanting to upset the student. I would think a more candid meeting with just the parents after they all met together, should be protocol. May not have made a difference in the case, but who knows.

 

[Izzylizzy]

The fact that no discipline was handed down is really mind-boggling, particularly since he was looking up bullets days prior. I would think a 3-day suspension and mandatory counseling before returning would be appropriate. I totally understand the counselor being concerned about him being left alone, and with the defendant stating they had to work, perhaps the dean felt pushing them to drop him home alone may have been factor. IDK.

I am surprised, also, that they only met with the parents in the same room as the child. I'm concerned that communication may have been watered down a bit in not wanting to upset the student. I would think a more candid meeting with just the parents after they all met together, should be protocol. May not have made a difference in the case, but who knows.

I just began reading about the negligence accusations against the school employees and EC's past behavior and what had been supposedly known by the school leading up to 11-30.
If there's evidence of proof then I would say it's mind-boggling that nothing was done about and for EC and his parents weren't involved with the school and outside agencies getting a diagnosis on EC and if necessary getting CPS involved.
I guess it's wait and see what will be allowed at JC's trial because as of now her defense attorneys haven't mentioned many of the school's supposed failures.
Since school employees are mandatory reporters and these accusations against them appear to have documentation I also don't get why none have been criminally charged and it's all in civil litigation.
I don't know most of this case's history.

 

[ChatteringBirds]

The school counselor did not want EC to be left alone because he felt he could be suicidal

All the more reason the school should have insisted they must take Ethan home right then.

At the same time, Ethan could have just planned the shooting for when he returned to school. It comes down to letting this teenager have a gun that is unacceptable for me. His parents judgment was so unreasonable that they also have guilt, IMO. The school at least tried to help him/them.

 

[Izzylizzy]

I don't know if this has already been posted when it was released?

'Oxford Community SchoolsIndependent Report On The Shooting AtOxford High School On November 30, 2021'

'Warning: The information discussed in this report is of a sensitive and traumaticnature involving gun violence, death, harm of children, and suicide and may bepotentially activating for victims and survivors.'

https://oxfordresponse.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/FINAL-REPORT-OCS-Investigation.pdf

 

[IAMWAN]

The fact that no discipline was handed down is really mind-boggling, particularly since he was looking up bullets days prior. I would think a 3-day suspension and mandatory counseling before returning would be appropriate. I totally understand the counselor being concerned about him being left alone, and with the defendant stating they had to work, perhaps the dean felt pushing them to drop him home alone may have been factor. IDK.

I am surprised, also, that they only met with the parents in the same room as the child. I'm concerned that communication may have been watered down a bit in not wanting to upset the student. I would think a more candid meeting with just the parents after they all met together, should be protocol. May not have made a difference in the case, but who knows.

IIRC, they did have EC leave the room prior to the parents leaving (I just remember hearing during the testimony this week that he can be seen walking out first and then they follow later).

 

[Izzylizzy]

There's so much info out there on this case.
I'm curious after just 2 days of trial if all the text messages have been revealed and revealed in complete form?

THE LAW UPDATED JAN. 26, 2024

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/oxford-school-shooting-ethan-crumbley-parents.html

IIRC, they did have EC leave the room prior to the parents leaving (I just remember hearing during the testimony this week that he can be seen walking out first and then they follow later).

I heard that too but don't remember hearing that EC was asked to leave the room.
iirc: That was the end of the meeting, parents asked/said nothing and also left?