GUILTY MI - 4 students killed, 6 injured, Oxford High School shooting, 30 Nov 2021 *Arrest incl parents* *teen guilty* #6

[cottonweaver]

Trying to keep up with jury instructions:

Jury must find beyond reasonable doubt:
1. (Improperly?) Storing a firearm & ammunition
2. That in doing so, defendant acted in grossly negligent manner.

Theories - one or both to be true
1. Failure to perform legal duty to take care (exercise reasonable care to control & prevent minor child from intentionally harming others), etc. or minor child conducting himself in a way that prevents mc from causing bodily harm & defendant knew
2. Defendant was grossly negligent by failure to perform legal duty

Gross negligence:
1. Defendant knew of danger requiring her to take ordinary care to avoid injury to another
2. ?
3. failed to take ordinary care

I tried to make notes of the first part but I am behind on the livestream


1/ Negligence in weapon & ammo storage caused death of 4 named victims

Two different theories - prove either or both, jurors don’t all have to agree on which but each juror has to agree with one of the two for G verdict
A/ failed to perform legal duty
B / grossly negligent


Re A/
In MI, parent already has the Legal duty to use reasonable care to control minor child to prevent them intentionally harming others or prevent minor’s conduct presenting unreasonable risk of bodily harm to others.
To prove this, all the following elements must be proved:

• They know they have the ability and opportunity to control minor
• They can do the above ( have means & opp)
• but neglected or refused to do so
• and so death was cause by negligence to fail their legal duty as outlined above

ETA: I gave-up trying to note-take on B/. ( WS mods says that the instructions might be passed to media so we'll get to read them)

 

[cottonweaver]

I was gonna say ... first time in a fortnight I've heard the Judge articulate a statement clearly

then, after I thought that and watched more, I now hear her continually fluff the words when she's reading out her own pre-prepared script.

 

[ChatteringBirds]

I just feel that there's so much we don't know and so much evidence that didn't come into trial. (

So much was unfortunately left out of the trial, I agree.

Prosecutors need to prove that the Crumbleys knew there was real danger of their son attacking his schoolmates, but were indifferent to that result

I feel they absolutely knew he was a danger to his classmates, because he wrote on his drawing that the thoughts wouldn't stop.

They also knew he was struggling socially.

 

[GRT]

Yet according to Smith, JC is a "super vigilant" and "helicopter parent".

It's up to the jury do decide if JC was an SV mom who was always looking out for danger or was a mom who was "self-centered" and "mostly an absent parent" who neglected all of her son's warnings that he was mentally suffering and needed professional help.

What has been stated during the trial and here is that JC was a mom who was afraid her son would do something "dumb" or "stupid".

So what was her reasoning for that fear?

Hopefully the jury picks a foreperson who was/is meticulous.

I do feel that Smith was highly offensive, especially during her closing and did JC no favors making light of JC's actions and lack of actions by comparing her to herself and all other mothers.

To me--unless there's something about JC that didn't come out at trial--the helicopter parent thing is absurd.

Just MOO, but I see JC as a non-involved parent who was too permissive because that was the easiest way to parent. I think she was a crappy mom.

But that said -- most crappy moms don't have kids that start shooting other kids.

I just don't think being a self-absorbed parent translates into being complicit in a teen's criminal act of killing. I do think there is ample legal precedent for holding both parents liable for costs related to damage to property.

What was the reasoning for her fear? My best guess to that was her answer on the stand about Ethan killing himself. Suicide among teens is more prevalent than mass murder.

But, I don't see the "red flags" as being all that obvious before the shooting. I see signs of a spoiled, depressed, melodramatic teen.

Now, had they found the gun in his backpack, I think there would have been a REAL red flag. Sadly, they didn't find it--no one thought to look.

Given what they actually knew -- I don't think there is any way the parents--or anyone--could have foreseen this tragedy.

There might be sufficient cause for a civil case, but, IMHO, there isn't for a criminal one. Just MOO.

 

[MadMcGoo]

Trying to keep up with jury instructions:

Jury must find beyond reasonable doubt:
1. (Improperly?) Storing a firearm & ammunition
2. That in doing so, defendant acted in grossly negligent manner.

Theories - one or both to be true
1. Failure to perform legal duty to take care (exercise reasonable care to control & prevent minor child from intentionally harming others), etc. or minor child conducting himself in a way that prevents mc from causing bodily harm & defendant knew
2. Defendant was grossly negligent by failure to perform legal duty

Gross negligence:
1. Defendant knew of danger requiring her to take ordinary care to avoid injury to another
2. ?
3. failed to take ordinary care

I heard the Judge say the media had asked to be emailed a copy of the final jury instructions, and she agreed to do that, so maybe they’ll in turn release that to the public. If they’re allowed to do that, I’m honestly not sure.

 

[GRT]

I laugh at the helicopter parent reference. Ok, she checked his online homework portal, but parenting ended with screaming at him because he was missing assignments. How about asking him why he was missing assessments, was he overwhelmed with the classes, what did he need to be successful, did he need a tutor, etc. But nope, suck it up kid.

Unfortunately, "suck it up," is a pretty common way of parenting. Tough love, and all that...

In EC's case, I doubt another type of parent could have fared any better because I think EC is a psychopath.

I suppose they could have put him on psychotropic drugs, but haven't other mass shooters been taking those?

I think EC was a ticking time bomb and that he would have gone off sooner or later, no matter who parented him. Sometimes, I think madness is inborne and there's no real escaping it.

JMOO

 

[Izzylizzy]

"We didn’t just hand him a gun as ‘here you go son,’” she testified. “It was something he could use when we went to the (gun) range as a family.”

She testified a day earlier that she entrusted her husband with securing the firearm. However, she admitted under cross-examination that she did not trust her husband to get out of bed in the morning, mow the lawn to her liking or update her on his whereabouts.

“But this is the person you entrusted with a deadly weapon?” Oakland County assistant prosecutor Marc Keast asked.

“I did,” she said".

Mother of Michigan school shooter admits she and husband gifted their son the gun used in the attack

She testified a day earlier that she entrusted her husband with securing the firearm. However, she admitted under cross-examination that she did not trust her husband to get out of

www.actionnewsnow.com

 

[legalmomma]

"Could I be charged for all actions of my child?"

Obviously the answer is no. If the jurors are so gullible that they think that is the question, then this case shouldn't have been a jury trial

I respectfully disagree. This is why we use jurors and not attorneys as jurors. Jurors use personal experience and while they are supposed to only follow the law, they very often do not.

 

[Weki]

I have to agree that the jurors need to be very concerned about the precedent this case will set for parents. And I believe it is almost guaranteed this case will set a precedent to use this type of charge for other acts besides school shooters. JMO

 

[MadMcGoo]

I created a poll for anyone interested in participating. Jennifer Crumbley Verdict *NO DISCUSSION*

I wonder how long the jury will take to reach a verdict, assuming one can be reached. I don’t envy the position they’re in.

 

[ChatteringBirds]

I doubt another type of parent could have fared any better because I think EC is a psychopath.

But not all psychopaths commit violent criminal offences, not at all.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Who knows that their kid gets home from school at “3:16”? Thats awfully precise!

Actually, if Ethan rode a bus to and from school, pick-up and drop-off times are very precise. School bus schedules are posted on the school district's website with the exact times and location that the bus will pick students up in the morning and drop them off in the afternoon. DH and I live on the main street into our subdivision and, if we're in the front of the house where we can view the street, we know the exact times that the high school, middle school, or elementary buses will pass our house in the afternoon. We're usually still asleep when the high school and middle school buses pick up in the morning, but we sometimes catch the elementary bus.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

I created a poll for anyone interested in participating. Jennifer Crumbley Verdict *NO DISCUSSION*

I wonder how long the jury will take to reach a verdict, assuming one can be reached. I don’t envy the position they’re in.

I live in Oakland County (about 12 miles south of Oxford) and am glad that my husband and I are beyond the age when we would be summoned for jury duty (DH is 75, and I turned 74 last week). Neither of us would have wanted to serve on this jury or that of James Crumbley.

 

[ChatteringBirds]

I am just surprised how many people think these parents are not guilty. I wonder if the state's case had been presented in a stronger and clearer way if more people would feel differently.

 

[cottonweaver]

Yikes, talk about wasting time.
Or am I missing the purpose?

The jury can replay a witness's testimony but they can't fast forward the video to look for the question/answer they want replayed.
They have to listen to the full video, or until they arrive at wanted line of questioning.

Yes they have to listen or play the entire witness testimony including the cross.

I hope the judge told the jury that in advance on Day 1 so that no juror thought ' I won't take notes because I will be able to check later when I'm in the jury room'

 

[Boodles]

I have to agree that the jurors need to be very concerned about the precedent this case will set for parents. And I believe it is almost guaranteed this case will set a precedent to use this type of charge for other acts besides school shooters. JMO

I think the jurors need to follow the jury instructions because they reflect the law. They’re not charged with worrying about precedent. Precedent is a by-product of a jury verdict.

Just like, jurors are asked to deliberate without regard to sentences, i.e., just determine G/NG based on the law. The sentence is separate.

Thats not to say they don’t actually, consciously or otherwise, have these things going on in their minds when they’re deliberating, e.g., jury nullification.

 

[cottonweaver]

I am just surprised how many people think these parents are not guilty. I wonder if the state's case had been presented in a stronger and clearer way if more people would feel differently.

Naturally IDK, how many voters watched the actual trial or listened to the judge's instructions but that's where L& C's poll is at the moment
( Only about 8000 were watching live while we were so ...)

link for screenshot

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[Izzylizzy]

I created a poll for anyone interested in participating. Jennifer Crumbley Verdict *NO DISCUSSION*

I wonder how long the jury will take to reach a verdict, assuming one can be reached. I don’t envy the position they’re in.

Thank you!

 

[Izzylizzy]

Smith's "it could be you" defense would have to work on 12 jurors if that's what a juror's not guilty verdict depends on.
Considering how many male/female teens are in the US the odds of it being your child is way beyond minuscule to say the least.
Smith tried her hardest to put a selfish fear into the jury when the charges against JC aren't about them, they're about what JC did and didn't do.
Smith's strategy somewhat reminds me of the mind-set out there when Chauvin's supporters were saying before and after his conviction that the only reason he would be found guilty was because the jury was afraid for themselves/family and of the riots/violence if he was found not-guilty.
Both mindsets ignored/ignore the actions of the 2 defendants.

 

[LMDlong]

To me--unless there's something about JC that didn't come out at trial--the helicopter parent thing is absurd.

Just MOO, but I see JC as a non-involved parent who was too permissive because that was the easiest way to parent. I think she was a crappy mom.

But that said -- most crappy moms don't have kids that start shooting other kids.

I just don't think being a self-absorbed parent translates into being complicit in a teen's criminal act of killing. I do think there is ample legal precedent for holding both parents liable for costs related to damage to property.

What was the reasoning for her fear? My best guess to that was her answer on the stand about Ethan killing himself. Suicide among teens is more prevalent than mass murder.

But, I don't see the "red flags" as being all that obvious before the shooting. I see signs of a spoiled, depressed, melodramatic teen.

Now, had they found the gun in his backpack, I think there would have been a REAL red flag. Sadly, they didn't find it--no one thought to look.

Given what they actually knew -- I don't think there is any way the parents--or anyone--could have foreseen this tragedy.

There might be sufficient cause for a civil case, but, IMHO, there isn't for a criminal one. Just MOO.

I agree with most of what you said. I truly believe the parents possibly could have forseen something possibly happening. JC knew there was something going on with her son in the early part of 2021. But she passed it off as EC joking around. That was one mistake. Not getting him into a therapy second mistake . Both the parents and the school the biggest mistake of not search the back pack. The stuff EC drew was enough to say hey if he’s going to stay in school today , with the parents present we need to check the backpack and locker.
In our local school district the school calls the police and the parents. The police bring in the K9 . Searches are performed. Thank God no shooting has occurred.