GUILTY MI - Carnel Chamberlain, 4, Mount Pleasant, 21 June 2012 #2

[katydid23]

I don't understand BIA's actions. I'm not even sure how they would intervene if Tribal called in FBI. Does not make sense.

I do believe that the house and surrounding area would have been off limits to all but LE.

I see what you mean. I don't see how BIA even had the authority to keep the FBI off the property. I would have thought the FBI would trump the BIA in the case of a missing/endangered/murdered tribal child.

 

[longtallcold]

I don't understand BIA's actions. I'm not even sure how they would intervene if Tribal called in FBI. Does not make sense.

I do believe that the house and surrounding area would have been off limits to all but LE.

And we were told at the searches that they were

 

[AmandaReckonwith]

IMO shes not missing - like they pretended her son was, shes disappeared, as in doesn't want to be found...probably for obvious reasons

I tend to agree.

And that just SUCKS that they knew the dogs hit on and around the home and let all those people search day after day.

I would be beyond pissed off.

 

[Jacie Estes]

Jacie, I know that we got there at 1pm on Sunday as instructed, and we waited for an hour at least to get signed in because according to SAR -- LE changed their search area "based on new information"

I think it is awesome that you went, especially in that heat, to search. The point I was making is that I have never seen BIA intervene like that. I was at a Christmas party in BIA Housing, different rez and state, where a fight broke out in the basement. One girl came up who had been jumped, her top lip and nose were split all the way up to her eyebrows. I grabbed her, locked us in the bathroom and held a towel and held her lip and nose together so she could breath and not swallow blood, while I was calling 911. Even in the 2 day aftermath, the investigation, there was never once BIA only tribal.

 

[ToosieJoie33]

I don't understand BIA's actions. I'm not even sure how they would intervene if Tribal called in FBI. Does not make sense.

I do believe that the house and surrounding area would have been off limits to all but LE.

Jacie, I do not know why the BIA was in charge in this situation. The gentlemen who gave me this information is completely reliable. He spoke directly with his friend who was there since day one with his hound dog. If you would like, I will ask him Monday why the BIA was involved.

 

[longtallcold]

This case took a lot out of me - so I stayed away for a good week.....it still hurts me this one does...but now I find myself mad rather than sad. I understand the process and steps of grief but it doesn't help. I read KC fb posts every time he posts them, because he is, without a doubt, a rock. Not just for the family, but for all of us. I just wonder if he is saying the nice things about JC for now just in case she has info for the trial. You know, like SOMEONE shoulda got CA to do.

 

[sadnpod]

I don't believe, for one second, that she ever imagined her son was going to be murdered.

I think she did not report the abuse, not because she was afraid, but because she was putting her own desires, for love and her relationship, above her son's needs. But I never believed she thought he was in danger of being murdered. :rose:

http://www.examiner.com/article/boyfriend-abused-carnel-chamberlain-weeks-before-he-died

snipped from link: Then a few days later Jaimee witnessed Bennett picking Carnel up by his neck, dropping him, and then dragging him by his right foot to his bedroom, which bruised his buttocks, reports the Times Herald.

I've been following this case from the beginning. After his body was found, I had to step away. How could Jaimee NOT know her son was in danger of being murdered by her chosen companion? These actions she admits to witnessing could have caused his death.
IMO she knew. This case reminds me of Caylee in that you have a self absorbed mother who used her child as a pawn to hurt her own mother.

My heart goes out to all who loved him.. to everyone here as well. Special prayers go to his grandma. I can literally feel her pain.

 

[longtallcold]

I think it is awesome that you went, especially in that heat, to search. The point I was making is that I have never seen BIA intervene like that. I was at a Christmas party in BIA Housing, different rez and state, where a fight broke out in the basement. One girl came up who had been jumped, her top lip and nose were split all the way up to her eyebrows. I grabbed her, locked us in the bathroom and held a towel and held her lip and nose together so she could breath and not swallow blood, while I was calling 911. Even in the 2 day aftermath, the investigation, there was never once BIA only tribal.

I'd do it again, but I will be leery of the info put out from now on, that is for sure! I mean rumors were flying between searchers, but just that, rumors.

 

[tunker2000]

I have a question how do we know for sure that JC was using drugs? If it comes from someones FB page I don't buy it. I did see the photo she had on her's, but that doesn't mean she is still using. I can speak from the point of being a former MI CPS worker and I still work close with them. It is very hard for a family member to just go to court and get custody, yes CPS should have been called if family had seen the bruises or other marks, but I have this feeling, they kept clothes on him and made up a story was to why he had a mark on his head if any one asked. CPS does not alway get involved for weed, it is not a huge issue if the parent is taking care of the child's needs, ie... food, shelter, medical etc... There is a good chance if they came in only based on the drug thing, they may have found out about the other abuse if Carnell was not to scared to speak to a worker and disclose the abuse. They may have just put some services in, such has drug testing, and classes and maybe a in home parenting person. Now all of this usually takes place outside of the rez, however if anything CPS does goes to court it does not stay in reg MI courts, it would be transfered over to tribal court. I do know that CPS still stays involved until the case is closed or if the child would be removed, then it would be switched to a fostercare worker to over see.
I also was wondering if JC's mom has provided a great deal of care for him, why was he not placed with her when he was removed as baby? If JC's mom had any involvement with CPS when JC was growing up that could be the reason, they will not place a child in a home if there has been prior abuse. I am not stating that JC mom has had that happen just stating the way CPS works.

 

[longtallcold]

http://www.examiner.com/article/boyfriend-abused-carnel-chamberlain-weeks-before-he-died

snipped from link: Then a few days later Jaimee witnessed Bennett picking Carnel up by his neck, dropping him, and then dragging him by his right foot to his bedroom, which bruised his buttocks, reports the Times Herald.

I've been following this case from the beginning. After his body was found, I had to step away. How could Jaimee NOT know her son was in danger of being murdered by her chosen companion? These actions she admits to witnessing could have caused his death.
IMO she knew. This case reminds me of Caylee in that you have a self absorbed mother who used her child as a pawn to hurt her own mother.

My heart goes out to all who loved him.. to everyone here as well. Special prayers go to his grandma. I can literally feel her pain.

BBM - amen!!! I do too...I could never imagine the coulda, shoulda, woulda's that are running through her mind, and will be for the rest of her life! I pray for her peace every day. And hope she knows, that THAT is the happy life Carnel will remember!

 

[Jacie Estes]

Jacie, I do not know why the BIA was in charge in this situation. The gentlemen who gave me this information is completely reliable. He spoke directly with his friend who was there since day one with his hound dog. If you would like, I will ask him Monday why the BIA was involved.

ToosiJoie, I have no doubt that this happened. I'm not questioning his or your reliability. I'm wondering if someone in AB's family has connections to BIA. Rez politics are notoriously bad.

We have several dogs and I know, if there were anything deceased on our land, they would be digging it up. I admire your friend's restraint because it kept evidence admissable.

If you see him and you are comfortable asking and he is comfortable answering, I am curious. I appreciate your posting about it. Another layer to this case.

 

[katydid23]

katy - how do you separate those two? I understand what you are saying and I genuinely want to know.

Do you mean how do I separate my 'compassion gene' from my 'lack of compassion' gene? LOL

I have been to and led many workshops and counseling groups for victims of childhood sexual abuse and incest. I have heard hundreds of stories of vile childhood abuse. So when it comes to sympathy or compassion towards mothers who allow violent offenders to move into their homes, I have ZERO.
Sorry, I know it seems harsh. But I have no patience with any of the various excuses.

Now I DO have sympathy towards the domestic violence victims who are literally held hostage and have no way out. There are woman who are brainwashed, beaten, humiliated, kept penniless, locked into total lockdown while their captors leave for work. In those cases, I understand why their kids might be victims of abuse as well. But even in those cases, the women usually feel motivated to escape once the perps begin to harm their children.

But my compassion gene is lacking for someone who had as many escape routes as JC had in this case. JMO

 

[longtallcold]

I have a question how do we know for sure that JC was using drugs? If it comes from someones FB page I don't buy it. I did see the photo she had on her's, but that doesn't mean she is still using. I can speak from the point of being a former MI CPS worker and I still work close with them. It is very hard for a family member to just go to court and get custody, yes CPS should have been called if family had seen the bruises or other marks, but I have this feeling, they kept clothes on him and made up a story was to why he had a mark on his head if any one asked. CPS does not alway get involved for weed, it is not a huge issue if the parent is taking care of the child's needs, ie... food, shelter, medical etc... There is a good chance if they came in only based on the drug thing, they may have found out about the other abuse if Carnell was not to scared to speak to a worker and disclose the abuse. They may have just put some services in, such has drug testing, and classes and maybe a in home parenting person. Now all of this usually takes place outside of the rez, however if anything CPS does goes to court it does not stay in reg MI courts, it would be transfered over to tribal court. I do know that CPS still stays involved until the case is closed or if the child would be removed, then it would be switched to a fostercare worker to over see.
I also was wondering if JC's mom has provided a great deal of care for him, why was he not placed with her when he was removed as baby? If JC's mom had any involvement with CPS when JC was growing up that could be the reason, they will not place a child in a home if there has been prior abuse. I am not stating that JC mom has had that happen just stating the way CPS works.

I, for one, would prefer grandma NOT be sleuthed regarding why/why not go for custody..or any other reason. I am quite certain, she is living her own personal hell that I hope none of us ever have to live.

 

[Cubby]

I have not seen a child taken permanently from a mother's care because of her smoking weed. I am sure it happens, because you have seen it, but I have only seen them force the parents into parenting classes, or drug education courses etc. But I have never seen a loss of custody if it is just accusations about pot.

Also, the accusations that I read about this case was that 'legal' weed is what they were supposedly smoking. So that might have been even harder for CPS to fight against.

I am not saying there is nothing wrong with the parents getting high, especially in this case. It obviously was not a positive influence in their lives. I think pot tends to emphasize a person's basic personality. If you are laid back, you become more laid back. If you are sadistic, you become more sadistic. It is not a good thing to do when taking care of young children, for sure.

But I really think that Grandma was in a no win situation. She really wanted to get Carnel back in her home, and in the past she would be patient and he would always be returned. I am sure she was worried that if she ever reported her daughter that she might lose her grandson forever.

:thud: But it wasn't just "accusations" of pot. A report would have alerted authorities to take a closer look. A closer look would have definately been founded in the eyes of child protective services.

I think there are going to be some strong divisions within this thread that will differ between believing ALL of the adults in Carnel's life had some responsibility to ensure his protection, versus ONE person, his mother, exclusively bearing ALL responsibility to the absolute helplessness of all other adults in his life.

There is no legal weed. In the cases I have seen, children are removed from those households in which the adults can not consistently get clean urine analysis tests.

We already had one adult in this household who had failed court ordered urine analysis. So these weren't just accusations. They were already founded as defined by the courts, civil and criminal, in the months and years prior to this tragedy.

 

[longtallcold]

Do you mean how do I separate my 'compassion gene' from my 'lack of compassion' gene? LOL

I have been to and led many workshops and counseling groups for victims of childhood sexual abuse and incest. I have heard hundreds of stories of vile childhood abuse. So when it comes to sympathy or compassion towards mothers who allow violent offenders to move into their homes, I have ZERO.
Sorry, I know it seems harsh. But I have no patience with any of the various excuses.

Now I DO have sympathy towards the domestic violence victims who are literally held hostage and have no way out. There are woman who are brainwashed, beaten, humiliated, kept penniless, locked into total lockdown while their captors leave for work. In those cases, I understand why their kids might be victims of abuse as well. But even in those cases, the women usually feel motivated to escape once the perps begin to harm their children.

But my compassion gene is lacking for someone who had as many escape routes as JC had in this case. JMO

Thanks not enough!! Great reply for us to understand..thank you!!!! I agree with you!

 

[tunker2000]

I was not saying to sleuth the grandma, just stating how the system works, I just know it's hard for someone other that bio parent's to try to get custody of a child. I think the grandma is a huge victim and I can't even imagine what pain she must be going through or whatever else she could be feeling. I know someone stated that she had to go to TX to take care of her own mother who was ill, and so that must also be hard for her needing to be in both places and then loosing a child she took care of as her own.

 

[ToosieJoie33]

I see what you mean. I don't see how BIA even had the authority to keep the FBI off the property. I would have thought the FBI would trump the BIA in the case of a missing/endangered/murdered tribal child.

Tribal Law ruled in this case up until Carnel was found. It falls under the Major Crimes Act. The FBI was working with the Tribal Police.

 

[longtallcold]

:thud: But it wasn't just "accusations" of pot. A report would have alerted authorities to take a closer look. A closer look would have definately been founded in the eyes of child protective services.

I think there are going to be some strong divisions within this thread that will differ between believing ALL of the adults in Carnel's life had some responsibility to ensure his protection, versus ONE person, his mother, exclusively bearing ALL responsibility to the absolute helplessness of all other adults in his life.

There is no legal weed. In the cases I have seen, children are removed from those households in which the adults can not consistently get clean urine analysis tests.

We already had one adult in this household who had failed court ordered urine analysis. So these weren't just accusations. They were already founded as defined by the courts, civil and criminal, in the months and years prior to this tragedy.

Im uncertain about the divisions you speak of....she was living with them for one month, thats it. Im not sure anyone saw anything in that short time. So brother said his girl and Carnel were bffs...ok was that when living at g'mas or moms? Neighbors saw him outside on trampoline - ok but had clothes on and saw nothing but a bouncing boy? WHO saw this child naked or close to in the ONE MONTH he lived with "MOM"? Not many. MOO

I mean to see bruises on torso for example, youd have to see said child with shirt off, yes? MY dd has her friend over fully dressed every time lol obviously...but id never know

 

[Cubby]

She went into hiding so they can't arrest her. She was Carnel's mother...she should have kicked AB out and reported the abuse the very first time he touched her son.

Do you have any proof there is currently an arrest warrant for mom? Or is that police theory?

She may have been overwhelmed and is suicidal.

LE may have no case against AB if their case against him relied heavily on testimony from mom.

Until I see MSM indicating a judge has signed an arrest warrant for mom, her running from being arrested is nothing more than rumor, police theory and simply her running from the lynch mob demanding a public hanging or she be burnt at the stake......

IMO, all the finger pointing at mom from the other members of the family (aside from KC) is their own way of coping with their not reporting and their own responsibilty for what occured. It is the story of those pointing fingers... as it is in so many cases.

 

[ToosieJoie33]

I was surprised myself when he said the BIA was running the show. I had recently taken a Tribal Law class and I still can't understand how they trumped the Tribal Police. I will gladly ask him on Monday and I will also send an email to my teacher.

I didn't think you were questioning me negatively at all! It is a good question. I do not live on a Rez so I do not know the ins and outs.