MN - George Floyd, 46, died in police custody, Minneapolis, 25 May 2020 #12 - Chauvin Trial Day 9

[Chelly]

Looking forward to Nelson's cross of Dr. Tobin

 

[whitelilac]

Nelson may as well throw up his hands on cross. Dr. Tobin is unflappable, and described exactly what was occurring with poor Mr Floyd down to the split second.
The fentanyl testimony also is out the window as any part of a defense.

 

[MsBetsy]

And he also tells us of the hypoxic/anoxic/myoclonic seizure (which happens automously due to fatal brains 02 levels/drastically low brain levels this happens) he had at 20:24:22 where GF's legs jumps up.

I had thought previously that Lane had lifted his legs. I had not realized until just now that they "jumped up/stiffened" and Lane actually pushed them back down!

View attachment 291895

Yes, it reminded me of when someone is being strangled and their legs start thrashing around. After that it looked like Lane kept moving his legs around to see if he could get a response. He didn't. Not for the next three minutes, anyway.

At least now we know that it's clear to the jury that Floyd went for at least five minutes with no oxygen to the brain, before paramedics had a chance to work on him.

 

[kaen]

Nelson may as well throw up his hands on cross. Dr. Tobin is unflappable, and described exactly what was occurring with poor Mr Floyd down to the spit second.
The fentanyl testimony also is out the window as any part of a defense.

You may be right but, I keep thinking he just has to get to one juror for a hung jury.

 

[MsBetsy]

That was so hard to watch IMO, knowing now, what exactly was going on for Mr. Floyd

That and the fact he was using his finger and knuckle as a desperate attempt to breathe.

 

[FinalGirl]

Dr Tobin is a fantastic expert witness. Let's hope he does well under cross.

 

[Chelly]

That and the fact he was using his finger and knuckle as a desperate attempt to breathe.

True, Dr. Tobin explained how those last movements of GF fingers were last attempts at life's breaths

 

[GarAndTeed]

You may be right but, I keep thinking he just has to get to one juror for a hung jury.

Yes, and that scares me- guess I've seen it all too often.

 

[Chelly]

When defense calls its expert witnesses, we can expect them to dispute Dr. Tobin's testimony about fentanyl not contributing to GF's death

 

[Jax49]

Yes, and that scares me- guess I've seen it all too often.

Usually a second trial favors the prosecution, imho.

 

[CrimeAway]

Nelson may as well throw up his hands on cross. Dr. Tobin is unflappable, and described exactly what was occurring with poor Mr Floyd down to the spit second.
The fentanyl testimony also is out the window as any part of a defense.

At this point, what do you all think the verdict will be based on the EVIDENCE presented thus far (rather than your emotions and initial beliefs before trial)? Remember, that the defense hasn't presented their case.

Guilty of ?

1) Murder 2nd Degree
2) Murder 3rd Degree
3) Manslaughter 2nd Degree

4) Not Guilty on all charges
5) Hung Jury

I would make a poll if I knew how to (and if it's allowed).

 

[MsBetsy]

(respectfully snipped by me)

But, could the defense argue that the officers misinterpreted Mr Floyd's struggles to get into a better position for breathing, as resistance?
After all, (IMO) they are trained in detaining (often uncompliant) people, and not in respiratory physiology.



I don't think that intent can be inferred from this (IMO), especially if the officers were not aware of the potential implications of this.

I am presenting another perspective, even though I may (or may not) personally support that.

After all, Graham vs Connor says that the reasonableness of force should be judged based not from the view of a lay person, or a respiratory specialist, but,
"from the perspective of a reasonable officer, on the scene, rather than with the 20/20 vision of hindsight."

Graham v. Connor - Wikipedia

Graham v. Connor, 490 U.S. 386 (1989)

No, I don't think there is any way they would determine his struggling as resistance. Not for nine minutes. They had no reason to use unauthorized excessive force to begin with. Even before they threw him to the ground he was passively resisting. Once he was handcuffed, he was no longer a threat. They are not trained in psychology, but they are trained in crisis intervention and knowing when de-escalation is appropriate and when deadly force is not. They are also warned against the dangers of neck restraints and how to properly monitor the subject. Imo

 

[Algo214]

Based on all the evidence Dr. Tobin testified to, 2nd degree murder

 

[Boodles]

I hope the jurors don’t become emotionally numb to the heinousness and atrocity of DC’s actions. Repeatedly showing George Floyd’s death may lesson the impact it initially had. I hope not.

 

[GarAndTeed]

@CrimeAway , I honestly can't predict until I've seen at least some of the defense's case in chief...but great question!
ETA- I think not guilty is out of the running, though.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

At this point, what do you all think the verdict will be based on the EVIDENCE presented thus far (rather than your emotions and initial beliefs before trial)? Remember, that the defense hasn't presented their case.

Guilty of ?

1) Murder 2nd Degree
2) Murder 3rd Degree
3) Manslaughter 2nd Degree

4) Not Guilty on all charges
5) Hung Jury

I would make a poll if I knew how to (and if it's allowed).

Too early for me to decide. I want to hear the defense side before chosing anything.

 

[Chelly]

This trial has a long ways to go. Defense still has to present its witnesses. Prosecution will likely follow that with rebuttal witnesses. Is it possible we will see Dr. Tobin again in rebuttal?

 

[JerseyGirl]

Testimony resumed Thursday with Dr. Martin Tobin, an expert who specializes in pulmonology and critical care.

Tobin, a Chicago-based physician who is a renowned expert on pulmonology (medical issues involving the lungs and respiratory system), testified that Floyd died of a low level of oxygen.

Tobin said Floyd's "shallow breaths weren't able to carry air through his lungs, down to the essential areas of the lungs that get oxygen into the blood and get rid of carbon dioxide."

Tobin testified Floyd's position was akin to being caught in a vise between the pressure from the officers atop him and the street below, interfering with his ability to expand his left lung. Tobin said the weight of Chauvin's knee on Floyd's neck compressed his airway, also compromising his breathing.

Derek Chauvin Trial Live Updates: Court resumes after testimony on drugs in George Floyd's car

 

[CrimeAway]

No, I don't think there is any way they would determine his struggling as resistance. Not for nine minutes. They had no reason to use unauthorized excessive force to begin with. Even before they threw him to the ground he was passively resisting. Once he was handcuffed, he was no longer a threat. They are not trained in psychology, but they are trained in crisis intervention and knowing when de-escalation is appropriate and when deadly force is not. They are also warned against the dangers of neck restraints and how to properly monitor the subject. Imo

I think that GF was actively resisting while he was in the squad car based on my own impressions and the testimony of Jody Stiger, the use of force expert from LA. I think that any active resistance ceased very shortly after he was on the ground outside the car, but I'll have to go back and look again and re-listen to the expert testimony.

I think that many opportunities to deescalate the situation were missed throughout the whole police encounter. But that's just my opinion, and I'm not a LEO, and wasn't there that day.

 

[JerseyGirl]

Four factors led to Floyd's low oxygen level, Tobin says:

• his prone position on the street;
• the handcuffs that pulled his arms back;
• a knee on his neck;
• a knee on his back and down his side.

"All of these four forces are ultimately going to result in the low tidal volume, which gives you the shallow breaths" that can't effectively bring oxygen into the lungs, Tobin said.

Hennepin County Medical Examiner Dr. Andrew Baker is expected to take the stand Friday.

Live Updates: Trial Over George Floyd's Killing